Plans may be in place to reduce the Fire dept by an additional 45 personnel

[OKCTalker]

I don't pay my employees overtime when they're on vacation. I can't afford it as a business owner. But it's OK for me to do it as a taxpayer? I can't afford that either.

[Midtowner]

A study would definitely be in order. From what I understand, not sure if any additional fire personnel would be needed since they are responding to calls anyway and read somewhere that the City owns the ambulances anyway (so not sure why the number would necessarily increase).

In today's Oklahoman, it mentioned that our ambulance service got high marks. Do we really want to change it?

Am all for deleting duplication of effort (fire and EMSA both responding to the same calls), City/County duplication of services etc. Point is make sure you are getting rid of the right ones.

Exactly. I don't think anyone knows the answer here. Trouble is--with all of the heavily entrenched interests and politics involved, can a study be done which is divorced completely from the politics?

[Steve]

Too many powerful interests are lined up against that sort of thing Midtowner. And the folks who benefit from such waste count on a fickle public not keeping the pressure up to make real changes. They know that at the end of the day the average person is too lazy to remember how their legislator voted on a particular bill. For example: how many of you know how your representative voted on a bill that REQUIRES raises be given to county officials?
I'm betting you don't. So here's a copy of a story done when this whollybooger was signed into law. Someone who delves into other legislation will find all sorts of items like this.


A one-word change to state law has sparked confusion about whether elected county officials in Oklahoma are now guaranteed the highest salaries allowed by law.

The revised law doesn't go into effect until November, but one county commissioner eager for his first raise in four years already raised his salary and those of the county's other elected officials to the highest allowed under state law.

The decision by Comanche County Commissioner Ron Kirby outraged several county officials there, including a judge who criticized it as unwise at a time when many public agencies are facing serious budget problems.

"Your common sense has been vaporized by your never-ending crusade to raise your salary," District Judge Allen McCall wrote in a scathing June 30 letter to Kirby. "Like most people in the courthouse, you have a great job with a very generous salary. Are you so greedy that you can't understand that?"

The officials' salaries were raised from about $58,000 to about $61,000, but Kirby, 70, quickly retracted the raises after realizing the law wasn't in effect yet. He and the other elected officials paid back the extra money they had received — a couple hundred dollars each.

Kirby, a former state representative, admitted to the mistake and said much of the controversy there stems from his ongoing feuds with the county excise board, which must approve county budgets but has not approved his request for raises for elected officials for the past four years.

"It's kind of ironic they put me in charge of an $8 million budget, yet they want to send out for a cheap guy to do it," Kirby said.

Implications are far-ranging

The larger issue, however, is whether the new law forces counties to pay elected officials the highest salaries possible even if they don't want to do so.

Their salaries include a base salary plus an amount determined by a formula that factors in county property valuations and population.

State law used to say counties "may" pay elected officials up to the maximum amount determined under that formula; House Bill 2573 changed the law to say counties "shall" pay them that amount.

Gov. Brad Henry signed the bill last month. Most of the bill deals with medical costs at county jails.

However, the one-word change regarding salaries could have statewide implications.

"It infuriates me," said Oklahoma County Commissioner Brian Maughan, who successfully fought against raises for Oklahoma County elected officials last year. "This is just worthless. Absolutely worthless."

Oklahoma County and several other counties do not pay elected officials the maximum amount allowed under the formula. Maughan said the new law appears to give counties no way to opt out of doing so in the future.

"I've already visited with legislators and gotten commitments to run legislation next year to strike this provision in the law," Maughan said. "There's some legislators who are awfully hot because they had this snuck in on them."

The bill was authored by Rep. John Trebilcock, R-Broken Arrow, and Senate Pro Tempore Glenn Coffee, R-Oklahoma City. Neither returned calls seeking comment.

Lobbyist requested change

Lobbyist Dave Herbert, who represents the County Officers and Deputies Association, said he recommended the change to Trebilcock.

Herbert said an attorney general's opinion released in April dealing with elected county officials' salaries was found to contradict a similar opinion released about a decade ago. The opinion was then retracted so the issue could be studied further.

At issue in the opinion were unequal salaries for county elected officials. Herbert said an assistant attorney general told him the best way to avoid unequal salaries for county officials in the interim would be to change the "may" to "shall" in the pertinent portion of the law.

"We were just trying to make the law consistent. We were not trying to give anyone a raise or not give them a raise," Herbert said. "For some reason, Kirby felt it gave him a reason to do whatever he wanted to do."

Herbert said counties that don't have the money or don't want to pay elected officials the most possible under the property and population formula can reduce the officials' base salary to make up the difference.

Herbert and Kirby denied ever speaking to one another about the bill.

Kirby said he didn't know anything about the bill until it passed the Legislature.

"I did not talk to anybody," Kirby said. "I'm sitting here on the sidelines getting beat up, and I'm thinking, 'What in the hell did I do?'"

[Mikemarsh51]

Okctalker. Please refer to post 22 as to the why.

Steve, you kinda glossed right over the post about para
Medics getting big bonuses. That must not be near as sexy as bashing the fire dept.

[Larry OKC]

"I've already visited with legislators and gotten commitments to run legislation next year to strike this provision in the law," Maughan said. "There's some legislators who are awfully hot because they had this snuck in on them."

Don't see how that could have happened since language changes (additions, deletions or change) to existing legislation MUST be noted in every version of the bill as it makes it's way through the process. Granted it was a single word and that most likely means the legislator(s) never read the bill before they voted on it.

Seems like every session there is at least one bill where something was "snuck in", and usually the author of the bill denies all knowledge of changing it and no one knows who made the change (while every change must be noted, there isn't any requirement to point to the offender).

This one word change reminds me of the 5% cap that was placed on property taxes increases. The obvious, plain language of the bill showed the intent was that increases couldn't be more than 5% yearly. But the Oklahoma County Assessor at the time asked for an attorney general's opinion. That opinion said that they were required to raise it by 5% each year (not up to). Attorney General's opinions have the full force and effect of law unless specifically overturned by the Court.

[Spartan]

Go ahead and let go of these 45 firefighter positions. See if there are some cop positions we can't let go as well.

I'd hate for anyone to lose their job, but if you need to fire cops, start with a corruption probe. As for the firefighters, a lot of them are about to retire. Just let those positions expire as men who served this city valiantly retire. Time to be more efficient.

[okcsmokeandfire]

The fire department doesn't do much in the way of actually fighting fires. We spend an awful lot of money on them so that they can go to calls which our A++++ rated EMSA already goes to. If it were up to me, I'd probably get rid of a lot more fire fighters so that we could more adequately staff the police department.

I dont know what fire dept that you are referring too Mid, but its sure not OKC fire. In my area of the city we have at least one structure fire per shift and many times we will have multiple structure fires per shift. Many of these fires are extinguished so fast that the news cameras dont have time to make the drive to see any fire. These fires are in addition to the 20+calls too car wrecks, automatic alarms, and medical calls (ob calls, shootings, stabbings, domestics, heart attacks, trouble breathing, etc.) that we make each and every shift.

Last shift for example, we had 27 calls, on the avg it takes about an hour to run a call, get to the call, perform the duties at the call, load patient, get back to the station from a call, restock equipment if needed, do the incident report on the computer at the station. 1 call avg is about 1 hour from time of receipt until incident report is completed, sometimes less sometimes longer depending on the severity of the call.

So last shift we have 27 calls, 2 on which were fire alarms which we are on scene longer for. So at the very minimum we had about 27 hours worth of work to do in 24 hours (a shift). The 2 fire alarms we were on scene at those for a total of 3 hours combined, doing things that we do saving life and property. So it should be apparent that there is not a whole lot of downtime. If there is downtime, it all changes when that bell goes off, we go from a ready mode to working hard mode.

OKC has a very well trained and aggressive fire firefighting department. Any other slant or depiction just aint true.

Now about this EMSA stuff. An A++++rating, lol, how can you have that kind of rating when many of your employees cant even lift the patient, much less their equipment to take into the scene. Im curious as to who is behind this rating and what their motive is. I can assure that is not in the best interest of the citizens of OKC. If it werent for the OKC fire dept, EMSA couldnt do their job very well, if at all. The only thing that EMSA does that OKC fire cannot is transport, but they couldnt be very effective in the transport business if it werent for OKC FIRE. By the way, EMSA has a turn over rate that is astronomical.

You guys on this forum wonder why the fire dept wont just let the city run over us and systematically eliminate us one by one.
The men and women on the OKC fire dept have pride and ownership in their jobs and in this city which we serve. We took an oath when we hired on this job to serve OKC and its citizens to the best of our abilities, even in face of adversity, even if the city leaders
are trying to ax positions, even if midtowner wants to get rid of firefighters, even if it cost us our lives, even if.......
Its obvious that city leaders or mid have never needed our help or been in a time of need where OKC fire dept members coupled with their speed and decisive action mean the difference between life or death. I think what you guys need to do is ask some of the recipients of the 80,000 plus calls we make each year and see what they have to say. I know it would be a much different picture getting painted on this forum.......

[Midtowner]

If that's the case, then we don't need EMSA and fire could assume those duties. You have to admit though--the cost to the city for a firefighter is astronomically higher than the cost to the city to pay EMSA for one of their employees. But if EMSA can't do its job and is using a rigged study to tout their greatness, what we need is an independent study. We only need one entity to appear at medical calls, not ladder trucks with full crews, etc.

If EMSA was eliminated, maybe we wouldn't even have to increase fire dept. staff. Maybe they could still handle those medical calls using different equipment? I'm definitely no expert, but I know enough to say that the city would be smart to research this and spend its money more wisely.

[Steve]

Public relations.

[Kerry]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

Hold on a second. The ambulance service is private, provides quality service, isn't laying anyone off, AND earns a profit while the fire department is public, provides quality service, IS laying people off, and is not making a profit; and your proposed solution is to get rid of private ambulance service and turn it over to the fire department. That does not compute. If anything, maybe the City should like at privatizing the fire department.

Huh - what do you know, some places are going to private fire service. OKC should really look into this.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/26/...nes-obamacare/

Our first-year contract was $300,000, and we were providing the same level of service the consultant said would cost $1 million,” Jensen said. “We continue to provide service as good as that of our municipal neighbors, but because we are private, we can operate more efficiently. We save 30 to 40 percent over what a similar municipal department would cost to operate.”
The savings come mainly in personnel. The fire district has 14 full-time firefighters and 28 paid-on-call firefighters, all of whom are privately employed. None is a union member.
“We don’t pay the insane salaries that our municipal neighbors pay,” Jensen said. “Our benefits are more in line with traditional industry. We are non-union, which gives us a lot more flexibility in dealing with our employees. Salaries and benefits are the big savings, but we [also] have a shop where we can rebuild and refurbish fire apparatus for our own use.
“We save money in purchasing almost anything a fire department would use, just by shopping around. We’re very cost-conscious. We watch every penny we spend,” Jensen added.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Public relations.

Steve,
No amount of public relations is going to change the minds of some of these people.
Mike, do me a favor and quit posting stuff on here. These people have been given factual information time and time again, and chose to twist that information for their own chosing. Some of you have absolutely no idea what it takes to provide public safety for a city of our size. So why dont we leave the public safety to the professionals and you guys go back to doing whatever it is that you do. I dont claim to know about your profession so dont think for a minute that you know anything about mine.
Like I said earlier, ask the people who have needed us whether we are worth it or not.

[Kerry]

I dont claim to know about your profession so dont think for a minute that you know anything about mine.

Got it - we aren't firemen so we have no idea what we are talking about and should just shut up and pay the taxes. Thanks for putting us in our place.

[Rover]

The assumption that any organization is at peak efficiency, whether it be fire, police, EMSA, a private company, city hall or any other, is ludicrous. These are times where actions and efficiencies have to be challenged. The public does not stand by and assume thy have to keep paying more and more. If you are in private business you know what I mean.

As a casual observer there are many (in)efficiencies I guess I don't understand. I have been at a number of occasions where emsa was called and a huge expensive firetruck arrived to transport a couple of firemen to assist emsa. The truck was never used and was never going to be used...it was not a FIRE, but a medical emergency. If the reason the fire dept is necessary is on the scene is merely for the brute force of moving and lifting the victims/patients, then why use a $500,000 "taxi" to get them to site. Use more efficient and more appropriate transport, OR require EMSA staff to qualify. Wiring around problems NEVER makes them more efficient or solves them. Maybe we don't need as many trucks as much as we need innexpensive vans. Let's be smart and save taxpayers money.

The answer isn't always more. Smart use of assets can achieve better results than bad planning, bad organization, and inefficient operations. Not saying the fire department is bad, but the idea that it can't be better is just not acceptable.

[Steve]

Okctalker. Please refer to post 22 as to the why.

Steve, you kinda glossed right over the post about para
Medics getting big bonuses. That must not be near as sexy as bashing the fire dept.

I didn't answer that one because it just came off as so surreal, probably because one scenario is something people in the real private sector deal with and it's not that unusual to see people stretched thin and being paid extra for carrying that workload, but I doubt any of us in the non-unionized private sector get paid overtime while we're on vacation! (and this will shock you: many people in the private sector currently are having to work an extra 10-20 hours a week WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION in exchange for keeping their jobs). So, do you guys think it's perfectly normal to get paid overtime while on vacation? Do you guys have any clue how bad it is for so many people in non-government jobs?

[Steve]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...INSD1DRDIC.DTL

[Mikemarsh51]

Rover, what you are not aware of is the "the Fire Dept" is not just for fires. This dept is the cities catchall for a large number of services. They include EMS, fire, rescue which includes any type of accident or natural disaster and God forbid, terrorist act. All types of public services that defy a category. Where do they keep all of these tools? On the truck!
Did you want them to take their own car to these calls? What happens when you are at a fire and are sent to a sick call? You take the truck because all of the tools you will need are on the truck. I'm sorry that doesn't compute to you. Are you going to complain about the big truck showing up with a paramedic when someone you know needs immediate cardiac intervention? Are you going to tell them to move along because you will accept nothing less than an ambulance? The fire dept is the back bone of the EMS service here. We have 65 vehicles that make EMS responses, while you will most likely only find 8-10 ambulances in town.

[Kerry]

I think the point Rover was trying to make is that maybe a fire department lite is needed. Leave fire fighters for fighting fires but maybe let a private company respond to medical calls, auto accidents, domestic violence, etc. You could easliy get everything you need for such situations on an F-250 pickup that seats 4 or 5 people. Of course, since they don't do as much they would be paid less. The US military doesn't send an aircraft carrier to every situation just in case it is needed, OKC shouldn't be doing it either.

[LordGerald]

Public relations.

Actually, Marshall is a PR genius. He's managed to turn his own brotherhood against him. Not a lot of PR people can do that.

[Steve]

From the San Francisco Gate story:
Public unions' traditional strength - the ability to finance their members' rising pay and benefits through tax increases - has become a liability. Although private-sector unions always have had to worry that consumers will resist rising prices for their goods, public sector unions have benefited from the fact that taxpayers can't choose - they are, in effect, "captive consumers."

At some point, however, voters turn resentful as they sense that:

-- They are underwriting, through their taxes, a level of salary and benefits for government employment that is better than what they and their families have.

-- Government services, from schools to the Department of Motor Vehicles, are not good enough - not for the citizen individually nor the public generally - to justify the high and escalating cost.

We are at that point.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz12StPbAAk

[Rover]

Rover, what you are not aware of is the "the Fire Dept" is not just for fires. This dept is the cities catchall for a large number of services. They include EMS, fire, rescue which includes any type of accident or natural disaster and God forbid, terrorist act. All types of public services that defy a category. Where do they keep all of these tools? On the truck!
Did you want them to take their own car to these calls? What happens when you are at a fire and are sent to a sick call? You take the truck because all of the tools you will need are on the truck. I'm sorry that doesn't compute to you. Are you going to complain about the big truck showing up with a paramedic when someone you know needs immediate cardiac intervention? Are you going to tell them to move along because you will accept nothing less than an ambulance? The fire dept is the back bone of the EMS service here. We have 65 vehicles that make EMS responses, while you will most likely only find 8-10 ambulances in town.

This is the kind of response that creates the PR backlash you guys create. You are not willing to serioulsy consider improvements and are arrogant enough to assume you already are perfect. I never suggested that you use your own cars and yes I know that the Fire Dept has become a catch-all of services. Well guess what...maybe they SHOULDN'T be an oleo of services. Maybe you guys should consider some efficiency measures and the appropriateness of transportation might just be an area to consider instead of feeding us back condescending dismissal. Any discussion of improved efficiency of resources seems to get met with some sort of veiled threat to health and safety. So, instead of defending why don't you seem to join in with the public that is paying for the services to identify the absolute most efficient way of using OUR money in the BEST way. Quit being defensive and protective of turf and work with the public.

[Steve]

public relations

[Mikemarsh51]

Rover, perfect? Who said anything about perfect? I would like to see your top ideas for solving the problem of A) a 9% Increase in call volume yearly. You can shuffle the call all you want but someone will have to respond to the 911 call. B) expanded growth, have you seen the construction going on? All those houses have people in them. Remember its not only OKC. You guys want to gut our department, yet Moore and Norman are hiring personnel and building new fire stations. Can they all be falling into the same trap that you say we are? Please take it that I am saying this very nicely.

Kerri and Lordgerald, please know your on my ignore list.

[Mikemarsh51]

Steve, it is amazing to me that you have laid the blame for the OT squarely at the feet of us firefighters. Not a single time have you addressed that it was an idea the city proposed. Why haven't you been critical of our city leaders for being reckless with out tax dollars?

[Steve]

Those leaders who went for the overtime on vacation aren't around anymore. But it would be a mistake if you think I'm gushing with love for city leaders in what I cover.

[Mikemarsh51]

Steve, I don't know how many members of the cities negotiating team are the same. The point is you keep bringing up the firefighters get this. Andy157 was trying to convince me of what a great guy you are the other day.