Jim Crow In Oklahoma City

[Prunepicker]

North East High School was naturally desegregated and had very
few racial problems. The problems they had most likely weren't
due to race but of boys being boys.

For the life of me I can't see how sending kids from one school
in their neighborhood to another neighborhood where they didn't
know anybody could solve any problems. From what I learned
about the busing joke was that it was supposed to provide the
best education for the students. Why didn't they bus the
teachers, like they do the music teachers, instead of the kids?
That way the kids would have the same teachers and be with
their friends.

Good grief!

[Doug Loudenback]

How about,

Hicory dicory doc,
The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one,
The mouse ran down.
Hickory dickory doc.

Does this have something to do with Jim Crow laws?
Am I missing something?

No ... it just relates to something that Generals64 intended to get to me about the Klan a year or so ago but forgot ... which I am absolutely confident that he will do. We're all getting old, don't you know?

[Doug Loudenback]

The comfortableness that many of us now have (me included) about white/black racial mixes did not come easily. Whether busing helped or didn't, I don't know, but I suspect that it did. But the comfortableness that many if not most of us now have with white/black mixtures on every conceivable level ... social, business, friends, sexual, marital ... that type of thing would not likely have come on its own without some force pressing the matter so that whites and blacks would come to look at themselves closely and see that, but for skin color, they were otherwise the same. That was certainly not the mindset in the 1950s and 1960s, probably later, and, for some, even today.

[PennyQuilts]

The comfortableness that many of us now have (me included) about white/black racial mixes did not come easily. Whether busing helped or didn't, I don't know, but I suspect that it did. But the comfortableness that many if not most of us now have with white/black mixtures on every conceivable level ... social, business, friends, sexual, marital ... that type of thing would not likely have come on its own without some force pressing the matter so that whites and blacks would come to look at themselves closely and see that, but for skin color, they were otherwise the same. That was certainly not the mindset in the 1950s and 1960s, probably later, and, for some, even today.

It is a little off topic but yesterday while I was working on a quilt, I had on an oldies radio station. So many of the songs from the fifties and sixties described relationships between men and women that would get people strung up and beaten if they voiced them, today. There has been a huge shift in attitude towards the role of women in the past fifty years. Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrown even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.

When my youngest was in kindergarden, she kept talking about Sheavon, a classmate. When I finally met him, he turned out to be an African American little boy. My daughter was too young to be coy - it just never occured to her to mention that he was black. Wasn't even on her radar. When I see the differences in attitudes in that generation, I have to give credit to their parents (and grandparents who may have kept their mouths shut) for being able to rise above their prejudices to the extent they did. Moreover, I tend to think that many who are utterly convinced that Americans are racists and bigots are living in the past. Not only are they not giving credit to the generation that raised the under 35 somethings, they are ignoring the evidence before them that we are making great progress.

Does that mean that we don't have prejudices? Of course not. But unless someone honestly looks to compare where we are now with where we were not that long ago, they can't conceive of how far we've come in the right direction. Young people who spot racism, even benign, are disgusted and it makes them angry. I think that is more a testament to the world they have grown up in than anything else. I'm sorry they don't see that.

And for what it is worth, I think we all have our biases - it is part of being human to develop stereotypes and some "fear" of people who are different. A survival mechanism. Education and wisdom is what turns that around - not rage. MLK had it right.

[flintysooner]

Growing up in the 1950's and 1960's the only African Americans I actually knew were men who worked on crews of one kind or another. My grandparents, who were born not so long after the Civil War, lived across the driveway from us. There was a vast generational difference between their attitudes towards race and my parents' attitudes. I think this difference must have arisen from the integration of the military and the influence of World War II but I really don't know why.

The first time I really recall seeing overtly racist signs was in downtown Oklahoma City at Bishop's (I think it was). I recall being confused by the signage and later my dad explained to me that some people were biased against some people because of their skin color but that wasn't true and I shouldn't feel that way. I had the distinct impression he had more pity for the people he characterized as racist than anything else and I'm certain that influenced my own belief.

Later in my early work experience I remember several men proudly showing me their Klu Klux Klan membership cards that they removed from their billfolds. I was shocked that these particular men were KKK for one thing and even more shocked that they were proud of it and even that the KKK had membership cards.

When I was in college at OU there was one African American student that I came to know somewhat because he was in the same major.

In 1967 I drove to Miami to watch the 1968 Orange Bowl. I recall passing through Selma, Alabama and stopping to make a phone call home. We were afraid of Selma because of the publicity about the violence just a little earlier. The place we went to make the phone call was totally segregated and the phone was in the black section. We felt a whole lot safer in that section than in the whites section. There was a young man who watched our car and us the entire time from across the street with a rifle slung over his arm. We were all really glad to get out of the south.

Then I vividly recall so many white people I knew at the time leaving northeast Oklahoma City because an African American family moved in down the street. Really that was before busing I think.

Definitely much better now.

[Generals64]

It is a little off topic but yesterday while I was working on a quilt, I had on an oldies radio station. So many of the songs from the fifties and sixties described relationships between men and women that would get people strung up and beaten if they voiced them, today. There has been a huge shift in attitude towards the role of women in the past fifty years. Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrown even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.

When my youngest was in kindergarden, she kept talking about Sheavon, a classmate. When I finally met him, he turned out to be an African American little boy. My daughter was too young to be coy - it just never occured to her to mention that he was black. Wasn't even on her radar. When I see the differences in attitudes in that generation, I have to give credit to their parents (and grandparents who may have kept their mouths shut) for being able to rise above their prejudices to the extent they did. Moreover, I tend to think that many who are utterly convinced that Americans are racists and bigots are living in the past. Not only are they not giving credit to the generation that raised the under 35 somethings, they are ignoring the evidence before them that we are making great progress.

Does that mean that we don't have prejudices? Of course not. But unless someone honestly looks to compare where we are now with where we were not that long ago, they can't conceive of how far we've come in the right direction. Young people who spot racism, even benign, are disgusted and it makes them angry. I think that is more a testament to the world they have grown up in than anything else. I'm sorry they don't see that.

And for what it is worth, I think we all have our biases - it is part of being human to develop stereotypes and some "fear" of people who are different. A survival mechanism. Education and wisdom is what turns that around - not rage. MLK had it right.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++UH:...You are definitely right....I admire those with the fortitude to stand on what is right. However, Your statement was right on the nose....Oh yeah I think you must have been a well versed Lawyer....

[Generals64]

I read these statements and agree with all of them. But, I have a hard time with ANYONE when they have to have a title attached to themselves....African-American, Native American, Asia American....Irish-American....I am an American .... don't judge me by my ancestors....I can remember very vividly playing with little kids.....we called them "colored"....Never did like the N word. However that only is a designated country that most Black people's ancestors came from....(Nigeria which in the day was a country called "Nigar")...study your history....then the kids were called "Black"....then African-American.....I would imagine that more that 98% of the Blacks in America have NEVER been to African. My Ancestory goes back to the Chickasaw nation...Once again, I am just an American...I don't get upset when the Cowboys kill the Indians on T.V. nor when the Cavalry attacks and kill all the women and children in the village.... Custer found a surprise didn't he?
we as AMERICANS (don't worry about color) should stand together and interact together as men and women of GOD.....O.K., get mad that's o.k.....Right now, the only one that I care about being mad is PapaOU because I promised to be at the Grant/Capitol Hill game and didn't go.....another story.....I don't mean to upset anyone. But, just imagine what it would be like if there were no Color lines....or religious beliefs......Personally, I have some very close friends that are black and some very close friends that are white......I know some white people I WON'T associate with and I know some Black people I won't associate with.....I even have a little girl (3 years old) straight from China that her parents adopted and got her straight from China and she thinks of me as a Grandpa.....Talk about being proud......Love ya all...See ya next time (I hope) Generals64.....

[Doug Loudenback]

Listening to the words about women that were accepted without a raised eyebrow even that recently was a reminder about how fast a generation can change attitudes. My own kids would be horrified at those types of attitudes, perhaps not realizing that their own grandparents didn't think twice about thinking of women in those terms - and that includes the women.

Oh, come on, Penny .... surely you're just funnin' us ... what tunes? I can't think of a one that disrespected women. Long Tall Sally? Little Darlin'? Only You? Little Star? Peggy Sue? Gimme your best shot ... Chantilly Lace?

[PennyQuilts]

Oh, come on, Penny .... surely you're just funnin' us ... what tunes? I can't think of a one that disrespected women. Long Tall Sally? Little Darlin'? Only You? Little Star? Peggy Sue? Gimme your best shot ... Chantilly Lace?

Oh good heavens, my dear - they treated women like children and talked about coming home to cold pots while she was out with her friends - and that wasn't even one of the oldest ones!

[USG'60]

Or maybe it was this:

Hey-hey, Bertha Lou
I wanna conjugate with you
You know my blood is running wild
And I know you ain't no child
When you do what you do, Bertha Lou
(Rock! Rock! Rock! - Instrumental break)

It wasn't verbs he was wanting to conjugate with her. (snort snort)

[kevinpate]

So ... adverbs?

[Doug Loudenback]

Oh good heavens, my dear - they treated women like children and talked about coming home to cold pots while she was out with her friends - and that wasn't even one of the oldest ones!

You said tunes, I thought, not practical reality. Soooo ... a tune ...? Or was that a lyric from one that I don't recognize?

[PennyQuilts]

You said tunes, I thought, not practical reality. Soooo ... a tune ...? Or was that a lyric from one that I don't recognize?

Lyrics. Doug, if you listen to the lyrics from that era, I can't imagine that you wouldn't notice how things have changed. And I guess I should clarify that it is not so much disrespect - they didn't mean it that way - it was just the times. Seriously, go listen to the lyrics.

[Doug Loudenback]

Penny, I understand and know that there is general and broad truth in what you are saying, and I was just having fun with you, sort of. The sort of part is that that I don't actually remember any lyrics in the old rock tunes that were sexist ... wholly often overly "teenager in love." But a tune which "put a woman in her place" song hasn't yet come to mind. Rock and roll was about fun, not about adult living and responsibilities, however they may have been defined.

That's probably why I still like it.

[PennyQuilts]

I don't have time to go back and find a bunch, right now, but "Evil Ways" was the pots are cold one. Just listen to the lyrics with an ear for that sort of thing, next time - I promise you'll notice the different and extreme changes in cultural views on the role of women and men.

Evil Ways
Santana
Music & Lyrics : Sonny Henry

You've got to change your evil ways, baby,
before I stop lovin' you.
You've got to change, baby,
and every word that I say is true.
You got me runnin' and hidin' all over town,
you got me sneakin' and a-peepin' and runnin' you down.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

[Doug Loudenback]

OK ... I don't know that the above lyrics make your point but, as for me, I don't count Santana as a Rock and Roll group, and (though I'm probably in the minority), I never paid much attention to or cared much for them. I'm pretty sure that we understand each other, Penny, and I'm certainly on your side of the gender argument, even if you can't or might have a lot of difficulty proving your point by rock and roll lyrics. IF the Santana lyrics can be said to support your lyric position, I'd be amazed if a counterpoint set of lyrics could not be turned up in the other direction. For an entire genre or period of tunes to be said to be imbalanced gender-wise, a fair analysis would include all within an identified category of tunes and/or lyrics, and not just one or a few.

[flintysooner]

I don't have time to go back and find a bunch, right now, but "Evil Ways" was the pots are cold one. Just listen to the lyrics with an ear for that sort of thing, next time - I promise you'll notice the different and extreme changes in cultural views on the role of women and men.

Evil Ways
Santana
Music & Lyrics : Sonny Henry

You've got to change your evil ways, baby,
before I stop lovin' you.
You've got to change, baby,
and every word that I say is true.
You got me runnin' and hidin' all over town,
you got me sneakin' and a-peepin' and runnin' you down.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

When I come home, baby,
my house is dark and my pots are cold.
You're hangin' round, baby,
with Jean and Joan and-a who knows who.
I'm gettin' tried of waitin' and foolin' around,
I'll find somebody who won't make me feel like a clown.
This can't go on, Lord knows you got to change, baby.

Is this not a song about jealousy?

[PennyQuilts]

Is this not a song about jealousy?

I got that she was out with her friends and he thought she should be home cooking. And maybe she was out fooling around - no evidence of that mentioned - he didn't trust her out of his sight.

[PennyQuilts]

OK ... I don't know that the above lyrics make your point but, as for me, I don't count Santana as a Rock and Roll group, and (though I'm probably in the minority), I never paid much attention to or cared much for them. I'm pretty sure that we understand each other, Penny, and I'm certainly on your side of the gender argument, even if you can't or might have a lot of difficulty proving your point by rock and roll lyrics. IF the Santana lyrics can be said to support your lyric position, I'd be amazed if a counterpoint set of lyrics could not be turned up in the other direction. For an entire genre or period of tunes to be said to be imbalanced gender-wise, a fair analysis would include all within an identified category of tunes and/or lyrics, and not just one or a few.

Well - all I can say is to listen to the lyrics of not just the rock songs but the rock and roll from the fifties and sixties. The whole genre treats women as little girls and quite a few talk about needing to be what their man wants them to be.

[flintysooner]

I got that she was out with her friends and he thought she should be home cooking. And maybe she was out fooling around - no evidence of that mentioned - he didn't trust her out of his sight.

The way I read it he was so obsessed with and jealous of her that he was stalking her.

Then he's warning her that he's going to quit loving her unless she changes. She's probably thinking "about time" to that if he had actually had a chance to say it to her which he probably didn't.

And it should be noted that he accepts no responsibility but blames her entirely in truly antisocial personality disorder fashion.

But that's just the way I see it.

[gen70]

Check out the lyrics to the rap and hip-hop songs of today and make the comparison.

[Doug Loudenback]

Check out the lyrics to the rap and hip-hop songs of today and make the comparison.

Penny wouldn't like that comparison, I don't think. The rap/hip hop stuff gets pretty hard on just about everyone, including the ladies.

[PennyQuilts]

Penny wouldn't like that comparison, I don't think. The rap/hip hop stuff gets pretty hard on just about everyone, including the ladies.

The rap is awful. Someone should whip out a can of whoop ass on the boys singing that crap.

[PennyQuilts]

The way I read it he was so obsessed with and jealous of her that he was stalking her.

Then he's warning her that he's going to quit loving her unless she changes. She's probably thinking "about time" to that if he had actually had a chance to say it to her which he probably didn't.

And it should be noted that he accepts no responsibility but blames her entirely in truly antisocial personality disorder fashion.

But that's just the way I see it.

I agree he accepts no responsibility but also recall that at that time, being out with her friends instead of home cooking was enough "evidence" that she was no good. "Evil ways," as is were.

[flintysooner]

I agree he accepts no responsibility but also recall that at that time, being out with her friends instead of home cooking was enough "evidence" that she was no good. "Evil ways," as is were.

I think you are interpreting "my house is dark and my pots are cold" to mean that she wasn't home cooking.

I don't necessarily see that meaning. I took it to simply mean that his home was empty and uninviting, more along the lines of absent hearth fire in an even older time.

Not that you aren't correct about the changing gender roles of the time (1968-1969) but I think it is a pretty good stretch to conclude that among her evil ways was not cooking. For all we know from the song she was cooking up a storm with her friends.

I was newly married then and I do know my wife and her friends of that time were struggling with juggling gender roles. There was a lot of pressure on women of that time that probably is still not sufficiently recognized. It was a tumultuous time on so many fronts.

I was surprised to read in the Wiki article about the song that it was about a girl who was spiteful. That seems pretty forced to me.