6 months later.

[Midtowner]

I agree with Steve that the PS workers need a better mouthpiece. I would add that they need a better political strategy. Want cash? Want perks? Sidestep the city government and secure those benefits by lobbying the state legislature. The unions need to learn to work with Republicans--especially the public unions, because for the foreseeable future, that's who will have the majority in the legislature.

As to convincing the electorate, you both need to hire a P.R. firm. Your union bosses do not strike a sympathetic image with the average anti-union Oklahoman, nor do your union bosses seem to have a clue what they are doing.

Consider the recent goings-on with MAPS III. Despite polling which suggested that you had very little chance of an upset, your unions put all their cards on the table, effectively attempting to hold the city fathers' agenda hostage. They called your bluff and here you are. The next time your unions make demands, the city fathers will remember the last time you made threats and will recall just how idle your threats turned out to be. You spent what.. $100,000 on an anti-MAPS campaign? Had huge grass roots support and still lost by the same margin as the anti-MAPS I folks did before MAPS had any brand recognition? How obtuse and incompetent can you be?

Your leadership has cost you a lot and will continue to do so. I'm not suggesting that you not be tough or not fight for what you think you need to continue to do the excellent jobs you do. What I'm suggesting is that you not go about it like a bull in a china closet. Hire some folks to help your leadership steer this ship because it's not going in a good direction at all right now.

[Larry OKC]

Mid, I wouldn't say the anti-MAPS folks didn't have an impact. They almost pulled off the upset (passage dropped to the same "barely passing" as the original MAPS. But I agree if they had presented the message better it could have been defeated and we might have gotten a better (legal) ballot/ordinance as a result.

How idle were the threats? They said unless if MAPS 3 directly included solving the staffing problems that PS has, they couldn't support it (as they had done with the 2 previous MAPS). No direct inclusion of MAPS 3 money (just the associated Use Tax and only for 2 years at that...even more temporary than the temporary tax) so they didn't support it and actively opposed it. If more of the PS lived in the OKC limits and had been able to vote, the results would have been even closer than what they were.

I agree the tactic could come back to bite them on the butt during negotiations and to a certain extent it has, they are going to lose positions (completely ignoring the promises of the MAPS 3 campaign) unless if all 3 unions agree to pay for any "added" positions with pay cuts etc.

The state level? Wasn't aware the state had much if any rule in the matter and I wouldn't be looking to the state for any additional funds any time soon given its budget situation.

[Larry OKC]

They don't really want the truth, it doesn't fit their "conspiracy theory".
What it really comes down to is basic, third great math, no matter where your dollars come from (general fund, special use tax, dedicated sales tax) if your revenue is less then your expenses, cuts must be made.

No glossing, just assumed tht if you don't understand 3rd grade math, why bother trying to explain the intricate workings of a complicated budget system/process.

So which is it? Simple and basic or intricate and complicated?

I will give you the multitude of funds (30+) that the city has makes the shell game harder to follow. Most are supposed to be dedicated funds but as we have seen, the City can change their "intent" at will and "borrow" (think they call it an intrafund transfer or something like that) that may or may not eventually be paid back.

[rcjunkie]

So which is it? Simple and basic or intricate and complicated?
I will give you the multitude of funds (30+) that the city has makes the shell game harder to follow. Most are supposed to be dedicated funds but as we have seen, the City can change their "intent" at will and "borrow" (think they call it an intrafund transfer or something like that) that may or may not eventually be paid back.

You too I see !

One last time--Budget process is intricate and complicated.
When revenue is less then expenses--thats basic third grade math.

I hope your spouse or better half takes care of your checkbook!

[Midtowner]

Mid, I wouldn't say the anti-MAPS folks didn't have an impact. They almost pulled off the upset (passage dropped to the same "barely passing" as the original MAPS. But I agree if they had presented the message better it could have been defeated and we might have gotten a better (legal) ballot/ordinance as a result.

54% to 45% is a pretty big (9 point) spread. That's definitely not "barely passing." Elected officials refer to much less than that as a "mandate."

How idle were the threats? They said unless if MAPS 3 directly included solving the staffing problems that PS has, they couldn't support it (as they had done with the 2 previous MAPS). No direct inclusion of MAPS 3 money (just the associated Use Tax and only for 2 years at that...even more temporary than the temporary tax) so they didn't support it and actively opposed it. If more of the PS lived in the OKC limits and had been able to vote, the results would have been even closer than what they were.

...and if all of those PS employees had families of 8 or more with children of voting age and if flood waters came in and kept NW OKC from voting and if...

But they don't. So if the best you can do by withdrawing your support is letting your opponent win by a margin of 9%, then you should refocus your resources somewhere those resources can do some good.

I agree the tactic could come back to bite them on the butt during negotiations and to a certain extent it has, they are going to lose positions (completely ignoring the promises of the MAPS 3 campaign) unless if all 3 unions agree to pay for any "added" positions with pay cuts etc.

Well, the MAPS III campaign said that if MAPS passed there'd be more positions. That's still a reasonable statement and it's still probably true. With MAPS does PS have more money than they'd have without it? Undeniably. Does that translate into more positions? Who knows.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one ever promised that should MAPS pass, there'd be comparatively more positions in PS than there currently were--just "more." More being something more than less and since without the MAPS money, there'd be less positions than there are now (arguably), the promise very well could be in the 'kept' column.

The state level? Wasn't aware the state had much if any rule in the matter and I wouldn't be looking to the state for any additional funds any time soon given its budget situation.

I was suggesting the tactics used by the insurance defense folks, workers comp insurers, utilities, etc. If the rules aren't 100% in your favor, spend some money on some winning candidates and get them to rewrite those rules in your favor.

[barnold]

RC-.........never mind, it's not worth the keystrokes. Go back fishing.

Midtowner- yes, there was a promise of more positions with the passage of MAPS3. Now comes the end around play you allude to....they will cut positions first then hire 10, maybe....if they feel like it, and if the use tax isn't spent on something else. You can call it political wrangling if you would like, most folks call that a Bald Face Lie. Please stop watching all the Mafia and Hoffa movies, we haven't called our union president a "boss" since the 40's and you are using it in a derogatory manner to suggest something improper or illegal is going on with having representation. I could just as easily start calling the political parties leaders Republican or Democratic Bosses but it just doesn't fit, does it. The Union President takes his direction from the firefighter membership, like me a 23 year public service employee, and we the majority have directed him what our wishes are. It's kinda like a Democracy with "true" representation. You know, the kind that you are supposed to have at a city, state and national level. When's the last time you sat down and spoke with one of these individuals?

[Mikemarsh51]

Methinks if you were so important the city would have found a way to keep your brilliance on staff!

[rcjunkie]

Methinks if you were so important, they would cave in to your wants, give the raise you claim your not seeking and every year or two, deliver you a bright red, shiny new ladder truck. (they still might if you would just stop the games and admit the real, and only reason your upset, is because MAPS3 passed)

I'm headed out on a night time poker run, if you have a little free time, practice your subtractions!!

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner, you are way behind the curve. Oklahoma City Firefighters association has already publicly endorsed 2 republican candidates. James Lankford and Matt Jackson. You are welcome to come to the union office any weekday between 4-8 and help with those campains.

[Larry OKC]

You too I see !

One last time--Budget process is intricate and complicated.
When revenue is less then expenses--thats basic third grade math.

I hope your spouse or better half takes care of your checkbook!

I live within my means, thank you very much.

What is so complicated about the budget process? You have "X" amount to spend and you don't spend more than that. Isn't it required by law that the City have a balanced budget? To make things simpler for the City, many of the 30+ funds have been set up as dedicated funds. Yet there are enough legal loopholes that they can get away with moving money from one pile to another. Not implying anything illegal here, but just because it is legal doesn't make it right either. And most don't even realize that it is going on.

We here about the extreme examples (like the Bass Pro deal). Think things like Bass Pro happen on a more regular basis than most would expect (just not to the same dollar amount)

I would love to believe that every member of the Council sits down and read every word of the 663 page City Budget report. But what probably happens, they look at what ever project is of interest to them (or their constituents) and concentrate on a small portion. Eyes glazing over on the rest. Maybe asking a question or two during department presentations, but when it comes down to it, they generally follow whatever recommendation the City Manager makes.

"revenue is less then expenses". Got that. Sounds simple enough, but seems like they make similar claims every year...no matter if revenue is up or down..."we don't have the money". Along those lines, please explain how the City can spend money (expenses) from revenue it doesn't have in the case of the $5M - $42M Water deal?

Got to love your "you too I see" comment. I read the PS threads and stayed out of from commenting on them for a while because I didn't have a dog in the fight. Claims were made from both sides (often without any links or supporting documentation). Interestingly enough, nearly every time I researched a particular claim by the PS folks, the City's own budget reports backed them up. The counter claims? Not so much.

Now that doesn't mean I support the name calling that both sides engaged in. Understand, when attacked, most are likely to respond in kind. I try to stick to the facts of the posts/info involved and try to leave personalities out of it (not always the easiest thing to do). Instead of saying someone is a stupid, moronic, idiot that is partaking of some mind-altering substance (your choice). Just ask for their sources where they are getting their info and present the info I have found. There may well be conflicting sources of info and if that is the case, then we have to decide which is the truth..if diametrically opposed, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Have never been a big union fan either. In some cases I think they have served a need. In others they have driven themselves out of jobs (as jobs are outsourced and shipped overseas). Union work at GM and others was a great gig. While it lasted. GM is gone now and the great paying union jobs left with it.

[Larry OKC]

54% to 45% is a pretty big (9 point) spread. That's definitely not "barely passing." Elected officials refer to much less than that as a "mandate."

True, but "barely passed" was used in articles written at the time when the original MAPS passed. By the same papers that supported its passage. Somewhere along the way even Mayor Cornett called the original MAPS as being a "mandate" during the campaign. Considering the higher level of passage of the 6 month extension, MAPS for Kids and the Ford/NBA tax, (would have to verify, but think all passed by 60%+ levels which is a 20+ point spread). To have the passage level drop back down to the 54% level even caused the Mayor to back off the "mandate" word. Choosing instead to say "we have been given an assignment". Agreed, 7 years from now, when we are talking about an upcoming MAPS 4, it will probably have morphed into a mandate again.

Well, the MAPS III campaign said that if MAPS passed there'd be more positions. That's still a reasonable statement and it's still probably true. With MAPS does PS have more money than they'd have without it? Undeniably. Does that translate into more positions? Who knows.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one ever promised that should MAPS pass, there'd be comparatively more positions in PS than there currently were--just "more." More being something more than less and since without the MAPS money, there'd be less positions than there are now (arguably), the promise very well could be in the 'kept' column.

I don't have the articles handy, but distinctly recall specific numbers attached (as opposed to a generic "more"). It was an increase but still short of what the City has admitted to being the needed staffing levels. Not further back, but not significant progress either. Given the economic climate that seems reasonable for now. Lets see how long we can tread water type of thing (my apologies to Bill Cosby). The promise was made that no matter what happened with other revenues, the Use Tax would be used and there wouldn't be any loss of PS positions (but only for a period of 2 years).

You are correct, the Mayor was rather adamant that if MAPS 3 didn't pass, public safety problems would get worse (but supposedly, there aren''t any public safety problems). Surprisingly there hadn't been any mention of public safety in MAPS 3 until the anti-MAPS folks brought it up. It was only after that, that the Use Tax idea was floated. MAPS 3 was presented in its own little vacuum, seemingly immune from the realities that exist nearly every where else.

The whole "rising tide lifts all boats" concept...we will take care of the staffing/manpower issues as the tide rises. From what I have gleaned from the post-MAPS budget reports is the rising tide was never used to address staffing needs but was just enough to cover the never ending cost increases for the employees it has (insurance, pay, benefits etc). Again, the PS folks have been hearing the same line since the original MAPS and signed on their support. This time they said, we have heard all of that before...prove that these aren't just more of the same empty promises and we can support it.

[andy157]

If you think I'm a member of the PD or FD, you need to read closer.

I don't think your a member of the PD or the FD. They're not wanting, expecting, or demanding a raise, maybe you should read a little closer.

[andy157]

Andy, this isn't meant to reflect on you individually.
Have you noticed how the more the firefighters on this board try to argue their case, the less sympathy they get from regular folks on this site? Once more, I ask, is it possible that the old union reliance on "hey, we're heroes, they'll believe us and take our side" doesn't work anymore? That maybe, just maybe, the "fighters" need to stick to fighting fires and they need to let a communicator get their message to the public?
Seriously, the best thing that OKC firefighters could do at this point ils to examine how badly this online effort has worked and what can be done differently.

Now, after a very long work day, I'm going to try to summarize the whole crux of this fight in a way average joes can understand - and possibly avoid rotten fruit being thrown by some of longtime fire and police friends:

Way, way back when, the public was asked to approve the public safety tax. This was under a young, inexperienced mayor by the name of Ron Norick and a relative short-timer of a city manager (Terry Childers).

The tax was a great way to beef up the ranks and buy new equipment, but it came with some future problems without any solutions. One, the cost of those police and firefighters salaries and benefits would ultimately grow faster than the tax itself. Two, there was a minimum staffing requirement built into the deal.
(Guys, correct me at any time here)
As the mayor got more experienced, and city staff began to realize what this meant, it created a problem for them because they felt it was forcing them to cut other departments' and services' funding just to keep up with firefighter and police costs.
They tried various ways to work around this, a lawsuit was filed, bad things were said, and a judgment was handed down that clogs up the city council agenda every year.
(Again, correct me at any time)
The council and staff might have been more aggressive against the unions, but didn't dare after April, 1995, and with the presence of a few allied council members, the unions did pretty well for a while on contract negotiations getting raises year after year.
But a shortfall and reorganization in the late 1990s led to the first attempt to clamp down on rising costs. This was a nasty battle that involved the struggling EMSA service and all sorts of complicated scenarios that left neither side very happy.
This is where we get into ALS engine companies, what was promised, what wasn't promised. I could spend a few hours at this point digging into archives to figure out exactly what the heck happened - but I'm tired. The unions will give their side of this here on OKC Talk, and city management won't. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between.
So now it's 2010. We're enjoying the national recession. I've seen a couple hundred people, several friends, lose their jobs. Salaries are flat for three years. What we're paying for insurance is up.
And the police and firefighters are upset because they feel they've been shorted on promised raises, staffing increases, for several years.
And they want this rectified, recession be damned. And as they try to argue this, they can't figure out why no one sympathizes with their cause.
Somewhere up in Heaven, Mark Schwartz is looking down, frowning, and saying "guys, you need to regroup. You're going about this all wrong. Now here's the plan ..."
(DISCLOSURE: All of this is from memory, so if I've messed it up, give me credit for trying)

Steve, perhaps your right. Perhaps the Firefighters do in fact need the services of an outside professional public relations firm to tell their story. Perhaps those who haven't been able to grasp our message may be able do so hearing it from a reputible P.R. firm. That is of course, if they care in the first place, if not, then why waste the time, effort, or the money.

Lets forget the contractual agreement between the City and the Firefighters regarding staffing levels. I guess since they're only employees it's OK for the City to disregard its contractual obligations. I wonder how many legal binding agreements with private business, or outside vendors the City has been able to get out of because they were short on money? I'm betting not a single one.

If the Citizens don't mind NOT getting something for which they are paying extra for when told by a Firefighter, then would they if a P.R. firm was to tell them? Maybe so.

If a P.R. firm told them they would be paying on 2 Fire Stations for the next 30 years, with bond money, at over twice the cost, would it matter? If they were told that in reality they were already paying an extra 3/4 of a cent in sales tax so the stations could be built and paid for with cash would that raise an eyebrow?

If a P.R. firm brought to their attention that the $1,885,000. original cost of one of those two stations could have been paid for with the $977,000. budgeted in the last 2 fiscal years out of the 3/4 cent PSST for ghost employees would that mean anything?

When a Firefighter informs them of the run down condition of the 13 rescue ladders only to be scoffed at, and labeled as complainers, and whiners, would that same message resenate as the truth if it came from someone else?

I've mentioned countless times about the fact how those rescue ladders should be replaced with PSST money, thats what its for, not MAPS 4 KIDS use tax, but they're not. The City would say there is no money left over in the PSST to buy ladder trucks because of those overpaid Firefighters.

However, the City knowingly and willfully violated a court order for years by paying for 15 secretarys out of the PSST, when it came to breaking the law they sure as hell had the money

Regarding that issue, the Mayor as well as Councilman Marrs has told the Citizens that the City has spent 60 millon dollars of M4K use tax on Police and Fire which is a blatant lie. Maybe a good P.R. firm pointing out the lie would make a difference. But again, maybe the Citizens don't care. I wonder how many of the OKCTALKERS that we've pissed off don't mind being lied to?

Steve, you and I are friends, I value your advice, and always have. I'll pass your suggestion on to the Union. I don't hold much standing as a retiree but I'll give it my best shot.

[Steve]

Andy, I just think that in this day and age, it's difficult for any union to make its arguments solely based on contracts when the majority of the workforce isn't tied into such arrangements anymore. Do I know for sure that a PR firm will fix everything? No, I don't. But I suspect the firefighters would get a lot more bang for their buck than they did fighting MAPS 3.
It's sad that all sides can't sit down and build an agreement and system designed for the 21st century.

[rcjunkie]

Midtowner, you are way behind the curve. Oklahoma City Firefighters association has already publicly endorsed 2 republican candidates. James Lankford and Matt Jackson. You are welcome to come to the union office any weekday between 4-8 and help with those campains.

James Lankford would be an excellent choice, good candidate to endorse.

[Larry OKC]

I think the point Steve and others is trying to make is anyone will get a lot further if they can just stick to the facts. Try to keep emotions out of it (or at least in check). And absolutely, positively, keep name calling out of it. Debates on subjects quickly deteriorate to the name calling (my observation has been the side that does it 1st has run out of factual information). Then the other side responds to the attack, with an attack and so on and so on...

Maybe a crash course in "How to Win Friends & Influence People"...

[Larry OKC]

...I wonder how many of the OKCTALKERS that we've pissed off don't mind being lied to?...

It has been my experience that there are a few (not to mis-characterize ALL or even a majority) that being lied to doesn't seem to bother them at all. As long as they get what they are wanting, that's all that matters (or think they are going to get). That same attitude was expressed by the Chamber when the question was asked, if they would push for the keeping of the promises in the Campaign. Their response (not a direct quote) was that it wasn't their job. "Our job was to make sure MAPS 3 passed" (apparently not giving any regard to little things like the truth as evidenced by their grossly incorrect MAPS Facts website)

[bombermwc]

Suggestion to FF's. Build up an actual fully documented presentation with solid statistics and let's present it. Something as simple as a powerpoint with graphs and a trending analysis can do wonders for your side. If you can turn me, (and if you really are having issues, then please do so), then you can turn anyone. Right now, I don't see a reason to change my opinion. Now don't take all my posts as saying I'm not willing to be swayed. If you have a good valid argument that can show the issues, then that's great.

If the city really does have a need, then it needs to be shown to the public so the public pressures the powers. Until that happens, you can do whatever you want, but it won't make a difference. Voters are what politicians pay attention to. So either things will have to get so bad that the department isn't reliable, or you can do sone preimptive education to the public. Fighting something like MAPS only makes people want to work against you...you picked the absolute worst way to make your case.

I'm not arguing just to argue, the evidence just isn't being presented. All the public hears is the same piss and moan fest over and over with the same junk. If there is an issue, then you need to spell it out with facts, not opinions. All the public has seen is media attention during something that has done nothing but help the city. Again, you probably couldn't have done anything worse than fight MAPS....bad bad mistake. PR boo boo #1....fight the popular project.

Come on guys...show us the info. We've seen small bits here, but never the whole outlined high and low level spread.

[Midtowner]

FF should be going after EMSA hardcore. That is *not* the best use of city money. If all the money going to EMSA was going towards fire and fire was able to do both jobs, a lot of duplicated effort and waste would suddenly be eliminated.

[barnold]

Bomber and midtowner,
Here's a study for you to begin with. I'll warn you it's a little long at 265 pages but it has all the pretty charts, graphs and numbers you've been looking for. It addresses what we've been attempting to let people of OKC know about for some time, staffing makes a huge difference! That is my main reason for enduring the cynicism and name calling of those that we will continue to protect. The final conclusion if you like to read the end of the story "Staffing is what saves citizens lives and property". Let me know what you think.

http://firereporting.org/pdfs/2008_Y...nal_Report.pdf

I'll start on the local side of it next for you.

[Midtowner]

Until you guys hire someone who can convey that information to the general public, it's not doing you much other than to make you feel very secure in the righteousness of your cause. Your leaders aren't doing the job.

[Mikemarsh51]

Our website is almost complete. There will be plenty of information provided.

Steve, Midtowner, et al, we made approximately 75000 PR related calls last year. If you think that we are not going above and beyond to win the hearts of those we serve you are wrong. I really dont think any of our "customers" would think of us the way some of the kind folks on here do!

[andy157]

Bomber and midtowner,
Here's a study for you to begin with. I'll warn you it's a little long at 265 pages but it has all the pretty charts, graphs and numbers you've been looking for. It addresses what we've been attempting to let people of OKC know about for some time, staffing makes a huge difference! That is my main reason for enduring the cynicism and name calling of those that we will continue to protect. The final conclusion if you like to read the end of the story "Staffing is what saves citizens lives and property". Let me know what you think.

http://firereporting.org/pdfs/2008_Y...nal_Report.pdf

I'll start on the local side of it next for you.

Oh my. You know barnold maybe if you could just hit the high points, give us a condensed overview, a readers digest version if you will, ya that would be nice.

[Mikemarsh51]

Here is the link to the cities study on the fire department and relocation plan. You will not find any rigs being put out of service in the study.

http://okc.gov/fire/fire_report.pdf

[Midtowner]

Our website is almost complete. There will be plenty of information provided.

Steve, Midtowner, et al, we made approximately 75000 PR related calls last year. If you think that we are not going above and beyond to win the hearts of those we serve you are wrong. I really dont think any of our "customers" would think of us the way some of the kind folks on here do!

I've received so many calls from police and fire charities that whenever I answer the phone and the words "police" or "fire" are spoken on the other end, I just assume it's a for-profit fund raiser splitting things 95%/5% with one of your charities and I either hang up or politely end the call.

Do you have someone at least advising your leaders on overall strategy? Do you have someone experienced in getting press releases published in newspapers? Do you have someone overseeing your common message?