6 months later.

[rcjunkie]

Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy

Couldn't stop me with a Mack truck, or better yet, a ladder truck (too bad you guys can't take better care of them and keep them running)

[Spartan]

I see the insult crowd is back.

[rcjunkie]

I see the insult crowd is back.

Had to return, logic, common sense and basic math did nothing.

[andy157]

Actually, I'm with RC. You guys keep pissing and moaning when you already actually have a pretty cushy deal. I liken you to the GM union. They priced themselves out of business in how many cities?

There are COUNTLESS municipal employees that are having to do with FAAAAAR less than police and fire get compared to what they used to get. You go find me a water worker that is on cloud 9 about his job. Guess what, with the "less", they still managed to create the best tasting water in America. Hmm.

And those 20 people in the entire department....not gonna make a difference bud. Make it 100, and you'll see a big change, but it's not as though OCFD is having a hard time filling shifts around town.

As Mesta said, it's been the motto for everyone else in every other non-government job for decades. I'd love to have actual retirement and not have to work until I fall over from a heart attack at 90, but that's not going to happen. Thanks to the baby boomers, not only will my generation NOT get jack crap from social security, but we also have to pick up the pieces from all the crap in the world that was caused by those same people. The older I get, the more benefits are removed from jobs so the employee gets less and less. why? So the stockholder can make more, put it into some lame derrivitive, and lose it along with everyone else's money and crash the economy.

Thanks, but I and everyone else, have much larger concerns than listening to the freaking OCFD bitch about not getting something a politician "promised". What a concept, a politician not following through. I never knew that happened. Mick must be the first one ever!!!

You really don't get it, do you.

[andy157]

"Do more with less" has been a requirement in the business world for the past 20 years. About time government catches on!

OK I'm fine with that, but if that's the case then the City needs to discontinue collecting the special tax. Why should they be able to take our tax dollars that are mandated to provide certain things, yet not do them?

[barnold]

OKCmallen,

But I love anecdotes! Like this one.......I'm a big redhawks fan and love going to the games. They've had some downturn in revenues these past couple of years due to the economy. They had kept their players salaries pretty flat (minus some of the big draft deals to go to the BIGS). They did not ask their players to show up and play the same game with 6 or 7 players, yet that is that same thing the city has asked of the FD, PD and (this ones for your RC) all other city departments except management. The number of games we all play have increased and so has the length of the season, but now they would like for us to take a pay cut.

Now that i've thrown that one out there for you I'll start in on just the facts. But it will have to wait until tomm. since I'm taking all the kids to a drive in movie in Guthrie tonight. Enjoy the beautiful evening all......even you old, bitter and forgotten RC.

[andy157]

Not sure if I've ever seen a group more out of touch with average person in OKC.

I've never seen so many people that don't get it. Maybe you do, and don't mind paying for something and not getting it.

[andy157]

FYI, they just started collecting MAPS3 tax last month, the Ford Center tax expired at the end of April.

And your point is?

[Wambo36]

I see the insult crowd is back.

Just because we're having a serious discussion doesn't mean we can't have a little fun, does it? RC comes on here throwng bombs and then refuses to participate in any back and forth questions and answers. I keep asking him questions but honestly have given up on getting any answers that don't sound like he's channeling Larry the Cable Guy. GITT'ER DONE!!! Or maybe it's Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men-"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"!!! Either way, his dismissive attitude along with having no responses for the points(?) he lays out makes him an easy target. Sorry if this bugs you.

[andy157]

Yeah, because you're the cognizant, intelligent one here, and the rest of us sheeple ignore the truth.


Look, you show me some major problems with police and fire response and efficacy, and I'm happy to get on the bandwagon. Hell, I am happy to agree to a penny sales tax that permanently adds to OKC PD and FD. Seriously, I truly am. I won't miss the money.

But what I won't do is believe one thing a union cries about (or any other entity that needs public funding) without some hard facts.

3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?

[andy157]

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

We have a permenate tax.

[Wambo36]

Had to return, logic, common sense and basic math did nothing.

Not sure why you would consider it an insult. Not exactly how everyone aspires to climb the ladder, but unquestionably effective.

Until you can answer any of the questions asked in this and other threads you choose to comment in, please refrain from playing the holier-than-thou card danielf1935/rcjunkie or whoever you are today.

Kind of sad really because we agree on about 90% of the topics on this board. Too bad you can't be right on the other 10%.

[rcjunkie]

OKCmallen,

But I love anecdotes! Like this one.......I'm a big redhawks fan and love going to the games. They've had some downturn in revenues these past couple of years due to the economy. They had kept their players salaries pretty flat (minus some of the big draft deals to go to the BIGS). They did not ask their players to show up and play the same game with 6 or 7 players, yet that is that same thing the city has asked of the FD, PD and (this ones for your RC) all other city departments except management. The number of games we all play have increased and so has the length of the season, but now they would like for us to take a pay cut.

Now that i've thrown that one out there for you I'll start in on just the facts. But it will have to wait until tomm. since I'm taking all the kids to a drive in movie in Guthrie tonight. Enjoy the beautiful evening all......even you old, bitter and forgotten RC.

Me old and bitter. I'm retired @ 50, enjoying the easy life, spending half of the year at the lake, your working a job you obviously don't like, you constantly complain about how the City is treating Public Safety and how you have to work your butt off because your so understaffed---so tell me, who's' the bitter one.

[rcjunkie]

I've never seen so many people that don't get it. Maybe you do, and don't mind paying for something and not getting it.

I agree, you Fireman just don't understand simple math.

[rcjunkie]

Not sure why you would consider it an insult. Not exactly how everyone aspires to climb the ladder, but unquestionably effective.

Until you can answer any of the questions asked in this and other threads you choose to comment in, please refrain from playing the holier-than-thou card danielf1935/rcjunkie or whoever you are today.

Kind of sad really because we agree on about 90% of the topics on this board. Too bad you can't be right on the other 10%.

Knew you would go this route again, oh well, how sad that you do this when I disagree with your veiws or opinions, how shallow, but I'm not suprised.

[Wambo36]

Knew you would go this route again, oh well, how sad that you do this when I disagree with your veiws or opinions, how shallow, but I'm not suprised.

You're not just disagreeing with our views, you insist on resorting to name calling. Maybe it's such an ingrained part of your personality to belittle people that you don't realize you're doing it. Don't know, don't care and definitely won't sit back and pretend it's not happening. Like I've said many times before, just answer one of the simple, straight forward questions asked on this or any other thread without the name calling and it would help legitimize your views.

As far as the danielf1935/rcjunkie name change, I couldn't care less why you got banned or why you came back with the new name. I just find it a little insulting you continue to lie about it and expect us to ignore the obvious, all the while playing your holier-than-thou card.

[Mikemarsh51]

The ladder comment about us taking better care of them was weak, what are you Junkie, 15 years old? That is typical of some managers though, blame the employees for all the problems!

[Steve]

3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?

Andy, this isn't meant to reflect on you individually.
Have you noticed how the more the firefighters on this board try to argue their case, the less sympathy they get from regular folks on this site? Once more, I ask, is it possible that the old union reliance on "hey, we're heroes, they'll believe us and take our side" doesn't work anymore? That maybe, just maybe, the "fighters" need to stick to fighting fires and they need to let a communicator get their message to the public?
Seriously, the best thing that OKC firefighters could do at this point ils to examine how badly this online effort has worked and what can be done differently.

Now, after a very long work day, I'm going to try to summarize the whole crux of this fight in a way average joes can understand - and possibly avoid rotten fruit being thrown by some of longtime fire and police friends:

Way, way back when, the public was asked to approve the public safety tax. This was under a young, inexperienced mayor by the name of Ron Norick and a relative short-timer of a city manager (Terry Childers).

The tax was a great way to beef up the ranks and buy new equipment, but it came with some future problems without any solutions. One, the cost of those police and firefighters salaries and benefits would ultimately grow faster than the tax itself. Two, there was a minimum staffing requirement built into the deal.
(Guys, correct me at any time here)
As the mayor got more experienced, and city staff began to realize what this meant, it created a problem for them because they felt it was forcing them to cut other departments' and services' funding just to keep up with firefighter and police costs.
They tried various ways to work around this, a lawsuit was filed, bad things were said, and a judgment was handed down that clogs up the city council agenda every year.
(Again, correct me at any time)
The council and staff might have been more aggressive against the unions, but didn't dare after April, 1995, and with the presence of a few allied council members, the unions did pretty well for a while on contract negotiations getting raises year after year.
But a shortfall and reorganization in the late 1990s led to the first attempt to clamp down on rising costs. This was a nasty battle that involved the struggling EMSA service and all sorts of complicated scenarios that left neither side very happy.
This is where we get into ALS engine companies, what was promised, what wasn't promised. I could spend a few hours at this point digging into archives to figure out exactly what the heck happened - but I'm tired. The unions will give their side of this here on OKC Talk, and city management won't. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between.
So now it's 2010. We're enjoying the national recession. I've seen a couple hundred people, several friends, lose their jobs. Salaries are flat for three years. What we're paying for insurance is up.
And the police and firefighters are upset because they feel they've been shorted on promised raises, staffing increases, for several years.
And they want this rectified, recession be damned. And as they try to argue this, they can't figure out why no one sympathizes with their cause.
Somewhere up in Heaven, Mark Schwartz is looking down, frowning, and saying "guys, you need to regroup. You're going about this all wrong. Now here's the plan ..."
(DISCLOSURE: All of this is from memory, so if I've messed it up, give me credit for trying)

[betts]

I don't think any of the people who work in other departments or for other companies whose jobs and salaries have been cut spend anywhere near the time this group does complaining.

If I were that unhappy with my job, I'd go to one of those other cities that pay more than OKC and work there. Of course disposable income might be no better, but who's worrying about that?

[OKCMallen]

3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?

If I can be shown it would be worth it, I'd pay it to have the penultimate FD and PD in the city.

However, that's not really what we're going for here: lush, full coffers for PD and FD. We need the basic done, and done well.

I still haven't seen ANY facts that our PD and FD in OKC are lacking to any unreasonble level. Hell, not one has even label a metric by which we can quantify. Response time? Homes burned down?

[Larry OKC]

FYI, they just started collecting MAPS3 tax last month, the Ford Center tax expired at the end of April.

Only off by a month (from the MAPS 3 Ordinance, Ballot/Title)

...The Ordinance provides the term for the excise tax, which is a period of seven years and nine months, commencing at 12:00 a.m. on April 1, 2010, and ending at 12:00 a.m. on January 1, 2018. ...

[Larry OKC]

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Some of the MAPS 3 projects are part of the Core to Shore so they are mingled a bit (particularly, the Park). The land purchased for some of the Park was spent a few months before MAPS 3 even went to a vote. The money used was authorized in the 2007 general obligation bond (IIRC, $6M of an authorized $26M).

Any associated Use Tax is collected by businesses and individuals (it is on the Oklahoma income tax form) when purchasing items outside of Oklahoma that don't have their own sales tax. Doesn't really have anything to do with local construction companies "turning dirt" (just the materials they might be purchasing elsewhere).

I agree that using a temporary tax is a bad idea. When the tax ends in 7+ years, that funding source goes away. But according to the City, this is a temporary solution until a permanent solution can be found. Also, the City has only agreed to earmarking the 7+ year tax for just the first 2 years. That video clip I posted of Prater said something to the effect that the City has pledged to sit down with the PS folks over the next to years and work out a solution.

[rcjunkie]

The ladder comment about us taking better care of them was weak, what are you Junkie, 15 years old? That is typical of some managers though, blame the employees for all the problems!

Whats weak is your constant crying about how unfair the City's treating you poor firefighters--grow up.

[rcjunkie]

You're not just disagreeing with our views, you insist on resorting to name calling. Maybe it's such an ingrained part of your personality to belittle people that you don't realize you're doing it. Don't know, don't care and definitely won't sit back and pretend it's not happening. Like I've said many times before, just answer one of the simple, straight forward questions asked on this or any other thread without the name calling and it would help legitimize your views.

As far as the danielf1935/rcjunkie name change, I couldn't care less why you got banned or why you came back with the new name. I just find it a little insulting you continue to lie about it and expect us to ignore the obvious, all the while playing your holier-than-thou card.

Not holier, just more knowledgeable when it comes to finance and the budget process.

[bombermwc]

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.