6 months later.

[rcjunkie]

Which makes a great point! If that tax was just starting how do we know we need the police and firefighters to take pay cuts to hire more employees?

It's not just police and fire, it's ALL CITY EMPLOYEES, including management, but please don't let that be known to the rank and file, it's better to keep them in the dark.

[OKCMallen]

I'm still unaware of any major fire/police protection problems?

[Mikemarsh51]

Junkie, have you heard the mayor say all employees? I heard him say on KTOK that if he could get the concessions needed from police and fire everything would work out for the budget. He did not say what you are saying. I can only go by what he says.

[Mikemarsh51]

OKCMallen, ever wonder why?

[OSUFan]

Thanks for proving my point. I'm not saying you guys are wrong or that you shouldn't speak out. For some reason, you seem to take an us vs. the world approach that I don't think is working.

[Wambo36]

Oh great, another thread with nothing but we need, we were promised, we don't have! WA WA WA WA WA.

For Gods sake, get a grip, stop bitching, be thankful you have a job and just do it. If your that unhappy retire/quit/move to Dallas or Kansas City and start a new life. Or better yet, move to Tenkiller with me, one can never have too many fishing buddies.

I still find it amusing that the only ones complaining are Police and Fire, I guess all other employees (Water, Streets, Parks, Animal Control, etc understand the financial and budget process, they know that in lean times you have to make do with less and are just happy to still be employed.

Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

[Mikemarsh51]

OSUfan, it's not us against the world! It's us against an administration hell bent on creating a downtown utopia at all costs! There are so many great areas in Oklahoma City, NW expressway, Memorial road, west I-240. All good areas that with a little investing of a park or something would privide alot for our city. Nope. We are going to squeeze every possible cent into downtown, to hell with the rest of it.

[Platemaker]

Is that a joke Mike?? The I-240 or Memorial Road PARK?

[OKCMallen]

OKCMallen, ever wonder why?

OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

[proud2Bsooner]

OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

Clicking my "Like" button.

Unions hollaring...worsening their reputations that much more.

[fuzzytoad]

I have an opinions about what's going on with the whole MAPS tax money that's been collected over the years, but I'd like to suppress my opinion for the moment and take the time to thank everyone in the FD/PD and other emergency services that helped during the flooding this week. Many people throughout this city appreciate everything you do in spite of the obvious manpower/equipment shortages regardless of who's at fault..

[barnold]

Proud and OKCmallen,
We have been talking about the problems within the FD and PD for the past several years.....where have you been? Ladder trucks out of service, reduction of manpower, firehouses falling apart......any of this ring a bell? As to the biased media coverage, yes and yes. About the only place you get both sides of the story seems to be FOX.

It's not an us vs. the world sentiment....it is an us versus the city manager and at times the mayor. Why you would ask? 20 years of broken promises and back stabbing that the general public is unaware or uninterested in. That is until you need one of us. Then you will become the one that cries foul and starts to understand what we've been trying to educate everyone about. Your city leadership is saying we don't have enough money for essential city services but funneling money to other projects. It's like buying a Big Screen tv for your house but you can't afford to pay the electric.

Fuzzy-thank you. If we could only make everyone understand how understaffed and overwhelming a single incident like this can make emergency services.

[okcsmokeandfire]

OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

I dont know how to tell you but the correct answer is option 1.

The problem is that we had a previous Fire Chief who would say anything to be promoted to Fire Chief. He convinced the city leaders that we could run our fire dept on a little as 600 members and they have bought into it, because it looks good on paper, but has absolutely no merit in reality.

The trouble is with this theory is that, that is not even near enough to maintain our current coverage with minimum staffing. This guy was nothing more than an administrator his entire career just as many of our city leaders are, completely out of touch with the reality that we face.

We try to explain the reality of what we do, only to be ridiculed as whinners and complainers by some on this forum. If we dont speak up for ourselves, who will? the city leaders, you guys on this forum. right, I wont hold my breath.

Other cities in our ten city avg are getting raises or staying flat and they dont have a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax in place. We do have the dedicated sales tax for police/fire and are still cutting positions. None of these other cities are taking pay cuts or cutting positions. So what gives?
Austin and cities of the like are making it work. Even the small suburb cities like Moore, Norman and Midwest City have been hiring not cutting positions, plus they are making more money. Hmm, how is that happening, we are a Big League City. According the Mayor and cronies during the MAPS campaign, we will have the best equipped, best trained and best compensated fire and police depts in the region. Really? Their alzheimers must be kickin in, because that is not even close to what is going on.

If we are going to go down this road, lets go ahead and repeal the 3/4 cent sales tax and let the city start funding fire and police strictly from the general fund, like we used to do before 1989. Lets give the citizens a tax break. Lets see if the citizens will go for this. The citizens didnt pass this tax 20 years ago to have their police and fire protection services cut.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Proud and OKCmallen,
We have been talking about the problems within the FD and PD for the past several years.....where have you been? Ladder trucks out of service, reduction of manpower, firehouses falling apart......any of this ring a bell? As to the biased media coverage, yes and yes. About the only place you get both sides of the story seems to be FOX.

It's not an us vs. the world sentiment....it is an us versus the city manager and at times the mayor. Why you would ask? 20 years of broken promises and back stabbing that the general public is unaware or uninterested in. That is until you need one of us. Then you will become the one that cries foul and starts to understand what we've been trying to educate everyone about. Your city leadership is saying we don't have enough money for essential city services but funneling money to other projects. It's like buying a Big Screen tv for your house but you can't afford to pay the electric.


Fuzzy-thank you. If we could only make everyone understand how understaffed and overwhelming a single incident like this can make emergency services.

Well said BA

[Mikemarsh51]

Platemaker are you saying there can be no other developments besides downtown?

OKCMallen, get on your knees then slip your head back into the sand, never mind!

[OKCMallen]

Platemaker are you saying there can be no other developments besides downtown?

OKCMallen, get on your knees then slip your head back into the sand, never mind!

Yeah, because you're the cognizant, intelligent one here, and the rest of us sheeple ignore the truth.


Look, you show me some major problems with police and fire response and efficacy, and I'm happy to get on the bandwagon. Hell, I am happy to agree to a penny sales tax that permanently adds to OKC PD and FD. Seriously, I truly am. I won't miss the money.

But what I won't do is believe one thing a union cries about (or any other entity that needs public funding) without some hard facts.

[okcpulse]

okcpulse,

If the pay as you go program were true, then why was the city purchasing land for the core to shore in Nov. prior to the election?

Also, what sound logic comes from cutting positions from the general fund that you claim you don't have money for with the promise that they will hire 10 additional positions with Maps3 use tax. -29 now + 10 in 6 more months still leaves a deficit of -19 positions. Funny math. Don't think my accountant would go for it.

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

[barnold]

Okcpulse- we have a permanent funding source that was passed in 1989 that is commonly called the 3/4 cent sales tax. It was passed by the citizens of Okc after discussion very similar to the ones going on here on the gravesite of three firefighters. We are trying to prevent the same tragedy from happening again. If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Okcmallen- I'd be happy to start running down the list of problems for the past many years and not a single one of them would involve firefighter wages. Do you have a particular area you would like for me to begin or should I just choose one of the 30 or so hot topics?

[Wambo36]

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Pulse, you need to understand, this was not our proposal. This was something the mayor and his handlers came up with in the waning days of the MAPS3 campaign to try to garner votes. Why would he make this proposal? I have no idea. It's obvious the council wasn't behind it. They said so in an open council meeting. As a matter of record, some council members told the mayor to go see if the Chamber of Commerce would help him keep this promise. That tells me who the council thinks was behind this promise, made during the mad rush at the end of the campaign.

Our intention is to make sure that the tactics used aren't forgotten. It shows the character, or lack thereof, of the people involved. That some on this thread would dismiss it as "expected" in todays political arena is pretty sad.

As some have already pointed out, we've had a permanent funding source for over 20 years now. They have been failing to keep the promises made to get that tax passed for a long time now. Sadly, I guess people think that's business as usual too.

[rcjunkie]

Junkie, have you heard the mayor say all employees? I heard him say on KTOK that if he could get the concessions needed from police and fire everything would work out for the budget. He did not say what you are saying. I can only go by what he says.

Absolutely, all employees are being asked to take said cuts, in addition, the cuts to departments other than Public Safety are much deeper.

[rcjunkie]

Funny you should mention it RC. According to a friend in public works, when the city manager came to address them about the budget, they were told not to ask any questions that could be construed as "tough" of the city manager so as to not be disrespectful. Guess who issued this edict? Not their boss or management(although thaty's where it likely started). Their UNION leader issued it. With that kind of pathetic representation it's hard for them to know anything about the city finances. The problem with all the depts. you listed is weak employee representation coupled with management who employ the "kiss a** uphill and shovel s**t downhill" style of doing things. But, what am I doing telling you this, you thrived in that system didn't you?

Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

[rcjunkie]

OSUfan, it's not us against the world! It's us against an administration hell bent on creating a downtown utopia at all costs! There are so many great areas in Oklahoma City, NW expressway, Memorial road, west I-240. All good areas that with a little investing of a park or something would privide alot for our city. Nope. We are going to squeeze every possible cent into downtown, to hell with the rest of it.

You do know that in the past 4-5 years OKC has built/developed two large regional parks, one on the far S. side of OKC and the other on the far W. side of OKC. Do you have any more poor examples.

[rcjunkie]

OK so my options are:

1. We have significant PD and FD problems that we should all be REALLY worried about...but we don't hear about them! Probably due to the complete incompetence of our media, or some clandestine cover-up scheme by the powers-that-be.

OR

2. We really don't have any major FD/PD problems that don't come with a down economy and no funding. No cover-up. No nefarious plan. But the PD/FD unions are crying about losing a few jobs.


I'm picking option 2.

DING DING, We have a winner, not to mention the sour grapes over the passing of MAPS3.

[OKCMallen]

Okcpulse- we have a permanent funding source that was passed in 1989 that is commonly called the 3/4 cent sales tax. It was passed by the citizens of Okc after discussion very similar to the ones going on here on the gravesite of three firefighters. We are trying to prevent the same tragedy from happening again. If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Okcmallen- I'd be happy to start running down the list of problems for the past many years and not a single one of them would involve firefighter wages. Do you have a particular area you would like for me to begin or should I just choose one of the 30 or so hot topics?

I want proof of unreasonable failings and shortcomings that are systemic in nature. And not anecdotal from you.

Until then, the "we need more money" thing just doesn't hold water.

[Wambo36]

Damn right I thrived Skippy, with hard work, dedication, college degree, you would be surprised how far one can go, and unlike you, I did it without moaning, griping, bitching, complaining.

Couple all that with a keen adeptness at the aforementioned uphill-downhill management style and I'll bet you were unstoppable. Skippy