Women and Love

[Leon]

Ya know, due to recent events in my life, I believe that there is not a woman on the globe that is capable of actual, true, accepting love....that seems to be quite the opposite of the typical opinion that men are only in it for physical satisfaction. Women are ruthless. Men wanna open up, they just know that if they do, they'll get screwed. I guess I had to learn the hard way several times. During my 41 years, there has not been one woman that I could open up my inner self to who has not screwed me over in some way. I'll never turn gay, but as of tonight, I don't think I'll ever court a woman again,....seriously anyway. Their loss, I have a fantastic income and a stable life. I cant say that all women are heartless but I will say that I can't recall one who isn't. So, from this day on, screw serious relationships. May I never believe in a woman again.

Fellas, a serious relationship equates to submission....it will never be 50/50.

Ladies, your man will never fully open up to you, because submission cannot equate to equality. If you think your relationship is perfect, then there must be something you don't know. You can't know how he truely feels....He's smarter than me....He knows that 50% percent of you is better than 100% of nothing.

A successful long-term relationship must be based on lies.

Added to my to-do list: change my $500.000 insurance benificiary to some non-profit organization.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...Added to my to-do list: change my $500.000 insurance benificiary to some non-profit organization.

I'm a good non-profit organization

[Karried]

Leon, it always feels so horrible after a split.. but remember, there is someone out there where you will be able to open up and share your life with. Don't give up and know that out there somewhere, someone is waiting for someone just like you to spend time with and to love... don't quit

[Curt]

Leon, I feel your pain my friend. I just broke up with a woman that told me she wanted someone to love her so much it hurt, then when I told her my true feelings, she went running back to a guy who used her for sex only, and she admitted that is why she went back to him, because she did not want the emotional feelings that came with the sex part, but rather just wanted the sex and no feelings. because of her, and in fact the last three women in my life, I dont think I can ever love again, or at least show it because I am afraid it will scare them away.

[Leon]

Man I'll tell ya.....Throughout today I had a totally new, albiet unwelcomed, perspective on women. The ones I knew, co-workers, wifes of friends, were all still OK. But I had an intense distrust for any woman I did not know.....a distrust that may prevent me from ever getting to know another. This last relationship was the greatest thing I've ever known and I poured my heart into it. It wasn't easy. It took a lot of effort to open up and let someone in....I'd guess it does for all men.

The sadest thing: I still believe it was the best relationship either of us had ever experienced. And I think that for me to open up again, another relationship would have to be better, and I honestly can't imagine that happening.

She walked away....no explanation. I suspect that means a third party's involvement. Crap!!! How does one ever learn to trust another?

[Leon]

Karried, I know I don't know you from Adam (or Eve) but girl, I believe you're mistaken. I travel a lot with my job, about two weeks a month..with married people, with single people, people who have boyfriends or girlfriends, different people most trips...I've spent a lot of time in hotel bars. I don't think anyone is faithful....male or female.....seen it too many times....except me, I'm the odd man out.

[Karried]

Leon, well, I can speak from personal experience, I've been married 18 years and never cheated. Never will.

It hasn't been easy - we were babies really 24 and 22 but we've made through many obstacles and lifes ups and downs. There was a time when we struggled but for the most part we are really happy and wouldn't want to be with anyone else.

Like I told you before, it sounds like it is painful for you right now and I do remember that hurt, disbelief, betrayed feeling when you've felt so vulnerable and shared your feelings just to have someone stomp all over them.

Human nature is to be selfish and do anything to get needs met - the women you are speaking of sound pretty complex - I'm not a psychologist by any means but I do think women like a challenge and the thrill of the hunt, some women say they want a man to be sensitive, open and vulnerable but I don't know if that's what they really want - opposites attract and I think that is why men and women like the differences in other sexes.. it is confusing, a woman might tell you she wants a sensitive guy but realistically can't handle the emotions (subconsciously, maybe she wants a strong macho father figure). In other words, don't believe every thing you hear - try to figure out the meaning behind the words - when a woman says ' I don't want anything for my birthday" head for the mall asap. It's horrible because men can be more forthright and open but woman have been taught not to be assertive and tiptoe around issues - have you ever heard of Men are from Mars, Woman are from Venus - it is really interesting and talks about how men and women can't communicate because of the way our minds are wired. (something along those lines).

Once these women know you aren't going to chase after them and beg them to come back they just might change their minds. It doesn't hurt to let them know you might be dating someone else - people want what they can't have.. I wouldn't call them if your life depended on it, as hard as that is, let them miss you a bit ... if you make yourself a little less available and revert to your not so vulnerable self, they might reconsider letting you go.

I'm not giving up on you Leon, there is always hope and you will feel better in time .. when you least expect it, someone will realize what a great catch you are. Just be good to yourself right now because it is a hard time for you - and remember, you do have some cyber friends that care about you!

[Leon]

Karrie,...Up front, thank you. That was a long post and it says something about you that you'd take the time to write it. So seriously, thank you.

Now, it's been a couple of days. I've learned through my life, it normally takes me about three days to get back to 90% normal after a life-altering event like a death or a break-up...three days to think rationally.

Two days ago I'd say my feelings toward women were just shy of a dark hate. I'll say here that I'm glad I didn't lash out at YOU in a reply....'cause I don't know you and you WERE trying to help...I was an extremely bitter person Monday. I'm working my way back to "just don't care".

I have done some thinking though. This girl and I had known each other as friends for several years before we became attracted to each other (I think we're both good-looking, I know she is very.) We probably never noticed each other due to other relationships we were involved in.

But one day the timing was right, we were both available, and a little, and I mean little, flirting sparked the best thing I'd ever know and I believe ever will. Lasted for a year and a half 'til now. We already knew each other. Neither had to BS or put up a facade. And within a few weeks we had talked about that and we pledged to each other NEVER to deceive each other in any way AND to express it when something bothered us and talk it out....We had trust to an infinite degree, and we had love, and we had passion.

And we argued a few times but that pledge WORKED!

I don't KNOW there is another man. She and I are still talking. But over the last few weeks there is a big, fast difference, she used to call several times a day we'd talk 'til midnight, now maybe once every other day. A month ago we could talk for hours about all kinds of things, now it's a huge struggle to get her to talk for ten minutes. A month ago I'd get emails from her at least one a day, just checked, the last was Sunday, not too bad I guess. Here's a small portion, "If I know you, when you read this you'll probably start thinking that I'm trying to end things with you. That is NOT the case at all. I love you dearly and you do make me happy."

I think there is something she needs to say but wont.....So now the pledge is gone, there is secrecy, there is NOT openess, there is not communication. Now as of Sunday, with my first post, trust is gone....replaced by suspicion.

I've poured my heart out several times recently to replies like, "I'm tired and need to go to bed."...at 8:30! "My head hurts." "My neck hurts."

.....Now Leon's heart hurts. I'd do anything to fix it. I really hope it's not lost.

Now it's time for a beer or two, or three.

Thanks Kerrie....You mentioned not calling no matter how hard it was. I think that's what I'm going to do...walk away and see if she'll come around.

[Curt]

Leon, I have been going through a similar situation. The woman I was seeing, who told me she would never hurt me and always be my friend no matter what, just about a month ago really changed, did not respond to my emials the same way, kept making excuses why we could not get together or talk anymore, but has never really told me why, and now she just totally hates me because I was looking for answers. She all of the sudden says she cant trust me, even though back in October she re-connected with a guy she used to know and they slept together, this after she told me how he dumped her after a summer of her going to his house everyday for lunch for sex, and he just dumped her, and hurt her, so she runs back to him while seeing me, so, I gave her another chance, but do you think she would give me another? no. I cant trust another woman and cant allow myself to have feelings anymore, just cant and wont. Karrie, you are one of the few good women out there my friend, too bad there are not more like you. My buddy at work told me, his mother told him years ago, she said " son, here is the deal with women, love 'em and leave 'em" and I really beleive most women out there dont like to be treated good, in fact another woman told me that just a few days ago. The girl I was seeing, her and I had many arguments about this other guy she refused to stop talking to, even though he is engaged to be married. Again, Karrie, please dont take any of this personal, we have talked and I know you are a good woman. I sometimes just want to call this girl, but stop myself from doing so, I e-mail now and then telling her I am willing to forgive and forget the past and be friends and take whatever comes with that, she just flat out refuses. I dont understand, I loved her and told her how beautiful she was everyday, I thought that was what she wanted, I guess not.

[Leon]

Oh, Bro! It hurts to read your email. Ya watch daytime talkshows, all women talk about is how they want a sensitive caring man who'll listen to them and try to understand. If they actually want that, they want a man they can control. The vast majority of women would never even consider being on a talkshow.....so you don't get the opinion of the vast majority of women. The controllers are bitch-enough to do it....so all you get are controllers' opinions.

I'll tell ya, these last few days, I've been watching the world from a different perspective...thinking real hard about what I'm seeing......My son, baseball team, eleven kids, eight or nine couples (parents, step-parents, boyfriends, girlfriends). I watched them and thought about things I've witnessed since practice started in February....and again I made observations....eight couples, four of the ladies would be considered hot (for their age) by anyone...four would be considered below average or obese.

Man I've heard it before but always ignored it,...The husbands of the good-looking, dedicated ladies (and the good-looking, dedicated ones were all married) were ALL *******s....especially to their wifes. The other guys were all nice, polite, and respectful to everyone....I'm not saying the nice guys were stuck with fat or ugly women....I'm saying the nice guys ALL had a track records of problematic relationships....The *******s' marriages seemed as solid as a rock.

My problem, and maybe yours,....it's not in me to DIRECT and COMMAND my woman...but that appears to be what's needed to make a relationship work....maybe they need to be TOLD what to do. Maybe a successfull relationship can't be 50/50....Maybe it has to be 75/25 in the man's favor to last "until death do you part."

I don't know....I know I can't love anyone more than I loved this most recent one....and it still didn't work. So love isn't the answer. Maybe I need to be an ass, demand hot sex five times a week, and fried chicken every Thursday. But I'm 41 now.....looks like no one will be next to me when I die...except maybe an ugly obese woman who wouldn't even give me a kitchen pass to go to Wal-Mart.

Dang! What's a man to do?

[Curt]

Ya know Leon, what you say is true. All the guys I know that have women treat them like crap. Cops are the worst for this also, my cop buddies are all users and players, and even married, but they cheat, they use and they have all the women they can handle. I am not sitting here crying the blues, just stating facts.

[Karried]

Guys! You are both coming off relationships that didn't work out and I know it hurts like hell, been there a few times and even though it was long ago, I remember it well. Just a few short years ago, we went through some problems and I thought my marriage was in trouble. It was so painful and everything looked bleak and hopeless. We got throught it and are much stronger now.

I think it is important to remember that your reality now is skewed by your feelings of deception, betrayal and sadness. You know the steps through grieving - it will take a little time. I've done this before, write down every negative part of your relationship and focus on that, people become larger than life and glorified - they become saintly in our imaginations. Focus on the reality of how they were just people who you were infatuated with - they had flaws and imperfections. That helped me somehow going through breakups.

Curt, you know you have a place in my heart so you just need to get out here to OK and hang out with Leon and we'll find you both some decent women.

Okay, now don't start acting like a**holes to women just because of this recent relationship problem. Remember about opposites attracting? I'm speaking for myself, I don't want a man to act too much like me! Can you imagine both of us sappy and bawling through Hallmark commercials? Not a good visual! I want a man to be strong and stoic and maybe not be so available - sounds opposite of what you may have heard but for me, that's attractive. I don't want to be treated like dirt but I do like a semi macho personality but I'm not attracted sexually to too much sensitivity(otherwise I'd be gay). I do like to be told that I'm attractive and I like to be told how much I am loved but I don't like to hear how much 'he can't live without me or I'd die if you weren't in my life" etc. I think you need to hold on to some of the things that your women first liked about you, I'll bet when you first started calling they would wait by the phone and hope you would call - now they know you will like clockwork ... hmmm, maybe some of the excitement has worn off and the chase is ended because they feel confident they have you. A little tiny bit of uncertainly wouldn't kill them. Just my two cents I'm certainly no expert here. Leon don't you dare give up - give yourself time - you may be reading into things that aren't there with her but I don't think you should call (even though your fingers will feel like steel attracted to that phone), don't do it! Keep busy, call some friends and let us know how it is going.

[Leon]

Mariner I have a friend/coworker...was married to a cop..he decided he wanted a divorce..divorce was final four months ago...he calls my friend today....he's getting married.

Now I have seen people get married faster, but I don't think it's smart. I and my friend both suspect he was seeing her before the divorce....If so, could his new wife ever trust him?....When she KNOWS he's cheated before?

Question for all: Do you think a relationship can ever be as strong/close as it was before someone had an affair?

[Leon]

Karrie, I kinda like posting back and forth to you...I might learn something. But just for the sake of discussion, lemme make some comments about your last post.

"You are both coming off relationships that didn't work out and ..." should read
"You are both coming off a lifetime of relationships that didn't work out and ..."( but I wont claim to speak for Mariner.)

You are absolutely right about reality being skewed by feelings. I know myself and I mentioned earlier, three days before I can even try to think with a clear mind. I'm pretty close now......and I'm cautiously happy to say that we've talked twice today. Thanks may be due to you, Kerrie, 'cause I did back off and I did appear that I didn't care whether we talked or not. And the talks went well although it was kind of like walking up to the edge of a cliff, we were both very careful.

Now the a**hole part....I don't mean making an effort to be rude, and I certainly don't mean physically or emotionally abusive....I mean to put myself first from now on and not her...to not go outta my way to be accomodating like I have in the past.

Actually, back on the skewed thinking thing, after about three days the hurt turns to anger...and thoughts of vengence (sp?) Those three days have passed now, I'm a little mad but I've decided not to care.

I dunno if it's sad yet though...there still could be a perfectly understandable explanation (although I can't imagine what that'd be). But if the relationship survives and an explanation doesn't come, then it'll never be as good as it was. And if the explanation IS infidelity, then I don't know, but I don't think so. I don't think I could live with that in the back of my mind. Ya know...anytime she's late, anytime she doesn't answer the phone, that thought would pop up.

I guess I need to get away from the "what if"s and focus on the "what is". I really don't like the 'what is'.

[Curt]

Leon, you can speak for me when you say a lifetime of relationships have not worked. I dont know why either. The girl I was with before, for about ten years cheated on me, moved in with that guy, then a month later moved out into her mom's house, after a year she came back to my house, but we had seperate rooms after that and no sex anymore, I just did not have the same feelings, but gave her a place to live, she later died of liver disease from too much partying, and yes drugs. This last woman, cried the blues to me how no one wanted her, how she was not good enough for anyone, and when I was in OKC this past decamber for a job interview, she cried again that I was going to move away from her and that she was not good enough for me. I stayed here because I thought she wanted me to, after that things started going down hill until we are at the point now of not talking. Sad part is this, I will never trust again, no matter if my woman cheats on me or not, I cant trust anymore. I was so good to this girl when we met, then she started seeing this other guy and I became an a--hole. I told her that the reason we fight is because she went back to him, and she says I cant take the blame therefore she cannot see me anymore, whatever, if she had not started seeing him again none of this would be happening. I do have feelings of revenge right now, but dont want to cause my self any problems. My only fault is when she first told me back in October she was seeing this other guy, i should have dumped her, but being the nice guy I am, I forgave her, never again.

[Curt]

Karrie, I know I need to move to Oklahoma and find a good woman there, because there are none up here. I found Oklahoma because of a woman and have talked to you about realestate enough to know you are a good woman. I wont become an a--hole to women, but I wont bend over backwards for anyone any more either, I'll be hard to get and a challenge. If they want me bad enough, they can come to me from now on. I am glad you worked things out years ago in your marriage, your husband and kids are lucky to have you. I need to listen to you and take your advice, on moving and women.

Leon, to touch on the subject of that friend of yours that was married to a cop, NONE of my cop buddies, married or not are faithful to their women, I take that back, one is, but that is the only one. One of them dumped the same girl three times now, and she keeps taking him back, and he still sleeps around with other women.

[Karried]

"You are both coming off a lifetime of relationships that didn't work out and ..."( but I wont claim to speak for Mariner.)

B.S.

You are both too young to speak for your lifetime - the best is yet to come, all of this you are going through is teaching you how to be a better partner in your next relationship. These are just trial runs and made to prepare you for the next best thing coming up in your lives. Do you know how many women would love to have guys like you?? Come on!

Leon, you might just be worried about nothing and Curt, she wasn't good enough for you anyway.

[Curt]

Thanks Karrie, your a sweetheart.

[Leon]

Oooooooooh,......If you knew what I know and saw what I just saw......HER!!!

[Curt]

Oooooooooh,......If you knew what I know and saw what I just saw......HER!!!

Huh?

[Leon]

She just freakin' hung up to talk to someone else....didn't even say,"Bye."....not even one word....I heard the call-waiting click a few times then absolutely nothing!!!!!

[Curt]

Time to forget about her now, her loss.

[Leon]

Ya know, I dislike women so much right now, I changed my desktop from a great picture of Jennifer Aniston to a freakin' hill with grass on it!......Looks better to me.

[Curt]

Ya know, I dislike women so much right now, I changed my desktop from a great picture of Jennifer Aniston to a freakin' hill with grass on it!......Looks better to me.

I dont know if I'd go quite that far. I had a picture of Jennifer Aniston on my desktop awhile ago that would have made you loose all bodily functions, LOL. But seriuosly, I understand how you feel.

[Karried]

Leon, here is what I'm thinking, you are probably so convinced that she is leaving that you are imagining things now! Her phone battery probably just died or something... give her the benefit of the doubt and why were you talking to her anyway? I thought you going to play cool and collected and stay away for a bit? Turn on your machine and better yet, go out and have fun with some friends - you are much more attractive to someone when they think someone else might want to be with you - Leon, hang in there - it will get better.