City talks about impact fees

[Kerry]

> there is a guy who actually lives in his boat house, at Draper lake, on the
> water. I wonder how they calculate for him?

They have achap who remeasures the shorline for a 1/4 mile in each direction, every day and sends in a new calculation from his HP pocketpro3004. He longs for a promotion to code enforcement, so he can again enjoy the better things in life.

Hey, I started out mopping the floor just like you guys. But now... now I'm washing lettuce. Soon I'll be on fries; then the grill. And pretty soon, I'll make assistant manager, and that's when the big bucks start rolling in.

[andy157]

> there is a guy who actually lives in his boat house, at Draper lake, on the
> water. I wonder how they calculate for him?

They have achap who remeasures the shorline for a 1/4 mile in each direction, every day and sends in a new calculation from his HP pocketpro3004. He longs for a promotion to code enforcement, so he can again enjoy the better things in life.

Come to think of it, I've seen that guy. I never could figure out why he walked around the lake pushing a measuring wheel. Now I know. Thanks.

[andy157]

Hey, I started out mopping the floor just like you guys. But now... now I'm washing lettuce. Soon I'll be on fries; then the grill. And pretty soon, I'll make assistant manager, and that's when the big bucks start rolling in.

I hope you washed your hands, before you washed the lettuce, after you mopped the floor.

[HOT ROD]

very funny guys.

But I think you all get my point - we have water as part of our city limits which is a little unusual and because we want to protect it as city land, we encompass the surrounding watershed areas; giving a larger than needed (from the residential urban zone pov) city limit.

We have people living on water here in Seattle too, in houseboats (and regular boats), but their utilities and mail is along the shore (land); so that is where they are counted. I would assume the same for OKC - the density would exclude water.

Nevertheless, we need to urge OKC to deannex the watershed and create a water trust authority with state power (administered by ACOG or Oklahoma County). We need OKC to focus resources on the built up urban/suburban core. And surely, that little 'tweak' would result in OKC instantly being more attractive to developers on paper!

[Kerry]

Two quotes from Wikipedia that says it all...

The population density normally reported for the city using area of its city limits can be a bit misleading, as its urbanized zone covers roughly 244 sq mi (630 km2), compared with the rural areas incorporated by the city, which cover the remaining 377 sq mi (980 km2) of the city limits.[11]

As of the census[1] of 2000, there were 506,132 people, 204,434 households, and 129,360 families residing in the city. The population density was 321.9/km² (833.8/mi²) with 2,317.4/mi² for an urban area[11] that occupies a small portion within the city's incorporated limits, which cover hundreds of square miles of rural land,

[metro]

Oklahoma City officials consider development impact fees
OKC Business
Pamela Grady
11/21/2008

Oklahoma City officials are considering implementing an impact fee on new residential and commercial developments throughout its rural and urban areas.

The fee, in turn, would be passed on to new home and business owners of the new buildings (see presentation.)

Planning Director Russell Claus explained to a crowd of business owners, developers, brokers and city officials at a South Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce meeting that discussions regarding the fee are in the early process, and meetings are being held to provide input.

Claus stressed that city officials have – for the past two years – analyzed the topic of impact fees and have discussed how to begin dialogue with interested parties on the concept.

The impact fee, he said, would provide revenue to help pay for infrastructure costs and related services for new growth.

“We’re talking about three types of infrastructure,” Claus said. “Those are streets, water and sewer, and parks and trails. As you bring additional activity on the roads or bring additional people into the community, those have an impact on that infrastructure system. The fees are a way of supporting that growth.

“This is a pro-growth community,” he said. “But we have discovered that we are falling further and further behind in our capacity to be able to pay for growth and to be able to pay for maintenance of our existing infrastructure. We’ve considered that if we continue to go down that path, we’re going to end up in a situation where we’re not going to be competitive with other communities.”

Claus explained the theory behind impact fees in terms of supporting new growth is that new growth is paying for itself.

Historically, the city has paid for infrastructure through bond issues, which he describes as a “sort of reverse taxation on the existing public.

Paul Odom III, a home builder in southwest OKC and surrounding areas, warned city officials to be “very cautious in these deliberations” and expressed concerns that the impact of the fee would drive businesses to other suburban communities, such as Edmond, Moore and Norman.

“If we start driving growth to our other suburban communities, then we’re going to have a very strong impact situation,” Odom said. “The reality is that’s what will happen.”

City officials plan to conduct a workshop to discuss these issues in December, with hopes of making a decision on how to alleviate the city’s infrastructure problem.

[Kerry]

City officials need to look long and hard at places where this has been tried and failed. If impact fees worked Florida communities would be swimming in cash for infrastructure. We are not. The only solution to the problem is to de-annex the rural land in OKC. Eliminate the problem, don't treat the symptoms.

[sgray]

I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject, but I do see the issue. I have friends who live in places like "west Edmond" but technically OKC, and they whine and complain about the quality of the roads, yet they use Edmond utilities and pay most of their tax dollars to Edmond...clearly they are (and want to be) Edmond residents. Somehow, someway this has to get fixed. How can they expect OKC to build them a freeway when they take no part in OKC. Perhaps make those communities take over that land? Force them to move to OKC services and have their taxes come here? I dunno...I see the issue though and something's gotta give. I don't know about the fee though, seems like their tax dollars are just mis-routed to the wrong city.

[metro]

deannex and go to a county government for some issues so we'll be more efficient.

[route66gal]

The only problem with the oft cited market demand to live downtown is the market itself. The urban core market tends to be a mix of the 20 something crowd and the empty-nest market. As long as schools in OKC leave something to be desired, you will never see the young families moving in to the urban core with the same numbers you seem them moving to the fringes.

This leaves areas on the fringes as the driving area for new roof-tops and, ultimately, retail growth. This, in turn, creates a tax revenue growth model problem for the core market because the engine for growth is inherently inhibited by a lack of of a primary desire for the "creative class"; good schools for children. Prohibitive or structured impact fees as a mechanism to engineer a desired outcome can never work until the quality school issue is addressed.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see development for young families on core development. Additionally, I too can point to both exceptions where a particular school or family has bucked the trend in the core and made a push. But the numbers don't lie; the fringes will continue to be a large part of a healthy budget for the City of OKC in the years to come.

As a side note, an interesting new trend I have seen around the country has been the beginnings of "micro" cores that have begun to spring up in the fringes, replicating (on a smaller scale) the office parks, density, and attractions that can be seen in traditional cores. These new micro core areas are based on the desire to have access to work/attractions but within a closer proximity to home. I will be very interested to see how this plays out in the future.

/two cents

we need to invest in the schools here for sure, all my friends leave to the fringe once they have children. And they miss the city really bad. We all are true urbanites since the 80s and its super sad to see them go. Probably leaving myself soon, most of us have owned small business here or still do. OKC loses as long as it ignores the public school problems.

[Midtowner]

We have invested in OKC schools. If you want a decent, free, public education, it's yours for the taking. My advice would simply be to send your kids to charter schools if they can hack it academically.

[southernskye]

We have invested in OKC schools. If you want a decent, free, public education, it's yours for the taking. My advice would simply be to send your kids to charter schools if they can hack it academically.

Do you have kids in OKC school district?

[Midtowner]

Do you have kids in OKC school district?

My wife teaches in OKC schools.

[southernskye]

That wasn't the question.

and unless you yourself have children in the public school system you should quit talking about stuff you know nothing about

[Midtowner]

Why don't I know what I'm talking about?

Ah I see.... so popping out babies and sending them to public schools makes one somehow qualified to speak on the subject?

That's a fine piece of reasoning if that is in fact what you believe. I suppose my wife who teaches people's kids in OKC schools probably knows nothing about this... nor could I have possibly formulated this opinion by substitute teaching myself for a year. Or heck.. actually being in school for something around 19-20 years now might qualify me to have an opinion here.

Or I could just look at the EOI scores and see that many OKC schools, particularly the charter and magnet schools (the former are open enrollment with seats available) and conclude that since these inner city charter/magnet schools are meeting and beating the scores at suburban schools on a regular basis that these schools might be halfway decent.

Or I could choose to believe the volumes of research that tell us that the parents, not the school have the largest impact on the likelihood of a child's success...

Or any other number of factors which I'm well acquainted with.

Oh.. you sent a kid to school? My gosh.. kudos. You bred and followed the law. You must be so smart!

[southernskye]

Why don't I know what I'm talking about?

Ah I see.... so popping out babies and sending them to public schools makes one somehow qualified to speak on the subject?
That's a fine piece of reasoning if that is in fact what you believe.

Theres no reason for you to be an ass.

I suppose my wife who teaches people's kids in OKC schools probably knows nothing about this... nor could I have possibly formulated this opinion by substitute teaching myself for a year. Or heck.. actually being in school for something around 19-20 years now might qualify me to have an opinion here. .

Gee, slow learner. As far as your wife you brought her into this, I was talking about YOU. I'm sure she is a fine teacher. Teachers are very underpaid here in Oklahoma. And I applaud her for putting up with pain in the butt parents.

Or I could just look at the EOI scores and see that many OKC schools, particularly the charter and magnet schools (the former are open enrollment with seats available) and conclude that since these inner city charter/magnet schools are meeting and beating the scores at suburban schools on a regular basis that these schools might be halfway decent.

Of course charter/magnet schools are going to have higher scores. They do not have Special Ed kids in them. EOI scores are only one indicator of a good school. How many middle and high schools in the OKC district made their AYP last year. For the 2006-2007 school year, only 3 out of 12 middle schools met the AYP. High schools did a little better.

Or I could choose to believe the volumes of research that tell us that the parents, not the school have the largest impact on the likelihood of a child's success...

Or any other number of factors which I'm well acquainted with.

Oh.. you sent a kid to school? My gosh.. kudos. You bred and followed the law. You must be so smart!

I agree with you on the parents having the largest impact on children, but good schools are important too and the OKC school district isn't good.

[Midtowner]

Of course charter/magnet schools are going to have higher scores. They do not have Special Ed kids in them. EOI scores are only one indicator of a good school. How many middle and high schools in the OKC district made their AYP last year. For the 2006-2007 school year, only 3 out of 12 middle schools met the AYP. High schools did a little better.

EOI scores are the best indicator of a good school and many OKC schools do just fine.

As far as special ed kids, I guess you didn't really comprehend what I meant when I said that charter schools have open enrollment. That goes for special ed kids too. If they can hack it academically, with IEP's and all, then they get to stay.

Theres no reason for you to be an ass.

And for you to say this.. that's hellarich considering the fact that you were condescending to me because I hadn't impregnated some girl and had my offspring attend OKC schools. If you think me pointing that out to you is me being a dick, you brought it up. I apologize if you don't like my answer.

Gee, slow learner.

Worked all the way through undergrad and law school. At one time I held a full time job and two part time jobs.

I guess that qualifies me as "slow."

[quote]As far as your wife you brought her into this, I was talking about YOU. I'm sure she is a fine teacher. Teachers are very underpaid here in Oklahoma. And I applaud her for putting up with pain in the butt parents.[quote]

I sure did bring her into this. I guess you don't have a significant other whom you can confide in. I'm certainly not qualified to do what she does, but do I understand the challenges she deals with and the type of environment she works in? Hell yes. I hear about it every day.

I find your jackass attitude to be ridiculous here. You think that just because I haven't sent my offspring to OKC schools that I can't possibly have a valid opinion. You failed to explain why that is, and now you've fallen back on some immature personal attacks. Good for you. Thanks for elevating the discussion.

[jbrown84]

OKC loses as long as it ignores the public school problems.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Kerry]

I guess $500 million in cash plus a lottery just isn't enough for some people.

[metro]

Q&A: Russell Claus: Proposed infrastructure fees will have impact on development in Oklahoma City

Q: Oklahoma City planning staff have been pitching the idea of impact fees as a way to keep the city from falling further behind on streets, water, sewer and trails for new development. How have developers reacted to the idea of impact fees?

A: Reactions have been mixed. For the most part, developers recognize that there is a real issue with our capacity to continue to provide the infrastructure needed to support new development. Most do not believe we should level the cost solely on the development community because of the perceived negative impacts this will have on development as a whole. Some believe there is no need for any fee; others would like to see a fee structure that promotes a more urbanized growth pattern.

Q: What’s the most important point that developers need to consider?

A: We have to do something to address our infrastructure shortfall. A number of developers pointed out that impact fees may drive development to other communities. We don’t discount that risk but also believe that at some point, development will choose those communities anyway if we can’t maintain a decent infrastructure system in Oklahoma City. Impact fees are definitely a double-edged sword.

Q: What’s the most important point residents need to consider?

A: The broader community hasn’t been engaged in the discussion yet, but if we go to some kind of assessment of the broader community, they will have to consider the general benefits that result from growth relative to the costs incurred directly to them. There are also potentially negative impacts on other city goals such as inner-city development and affordable housing that concern me as the planning director.

Q: What are the chances that the City Council will enact impact fees in some form?

A: That is up to council, but I believe there is strong support for some level of fee. Council has a lot to weigh in its deliberations: the current state of the economy, the potential shift of development outside the city boundaries, negative impacts on other stated city goals, the level of fee, equity in who pays. It’s not a simple decision, but if we are going to maintain our current momentum, it is also not an issue that we can ignore.



Russell Claus - Photo provided

[metro]

The Journal Record - Article

Companies look for fair developer fee system in OKC
by Janice Francis-Smith
The Journal Record May 5, 2009

OKLAHOMA CITY – Todd Booze doesn’t like paying impact fees to the cities that build out their infrastructure to accommodate the new neighborhoods he helps create.

“But we understand, sometimes it’s a necessary evil,” said Booze, president of construction for Ideal Homes.The company builds in Norman and Oklahoma City. Norman has a system of developer fees in place that forces developers to help pay for the municipal infrastructure extended to their projects.

Oklahoma City officials are working to create a developer fee.

Senate Bill 805 would have created a framework for that, listing certain requirements and procedures for implementing the fee. By the time the bill was allowed to die for the session on April 10, developers’ representatives were willing to support the measure. Representatives of the municipalities that would have collected the fee, however, weren’t as supportive.

“We were disappointed it’s going to an interim study instead of passing,” said Mike Means, executive vice president of the Oklahoma State Home Builders Association. “We might not like fees philosophically, but we realize the infrastructure needs to be developed. This would have created a uniform process and procedures.”

Russell Claus, city planner for Oklahoma City, said the bill was so flawed it would have created more problems than it solved.

“Municipal governments were not involved in the crafting of this bill,” said Claus, “and to get it to the point where the municipal governments and the industry agreed, it had to be reworked from scratch. Enforcement would have been impossible. There were legal conflicts that would have stopped development, and we didn’t want that – nobody wants that.”

One part of the bill said the fees would apply to new development included in the city’s comprehensive plan. In another part of the bill developments already included in the comprehensive plan would have been exempt, Claus said.

Municipalities would have been required to purchase all easements; currently, easements are dedicated to the municipality on a voluntary basis, said Claus. The cost of implementing the administrative duties in SB 805 would have been expensive – making the fees cost more, he said.

Creating an equitable developer fee can get complicated, all agreed. Booze said the fee should be proportionate to the size of the development. The money collected from a specific developer should be applied to infrastructure improvements that benefit that development, he said, not used across town for an unrelated project. Then there is the issue of double taxation, Booze said, as cities already collect sales taxes that are applied to infrastructure improvements.

“There are questions regarding how the money gets used and accounted for,” said Booze.

SB 805 passed out of the state Senate on a vote of 40-1, but stalled once it reached the House Appropriations and Budget Committee. State Rep. Guy Liebmann, R-Oklahoma City, who carried the bill in the House for Senate author Sen. Cliff Aldridge, R-Midwest City, agreed the issue should be studied further during the legislative interim.

Means said some developers were upset with the outcome. Cities still have the authority to create their own developer impact fees, but SB 805 would have placed some limitations on how those fees might be applied.