Tulsa wants a WNBA franchise, Good Move?

[Nawfside OKC]

I voted yes... if that's what they wanna do. I don't think it would be supported very well,but hey let um have at it.doesn't some of the money still come to the city since we are the capitol im not really sure how that works ?

[Floyd]

Floyd, I related my growing up experiences as they occurred, accurately. As far as "besting" Tulsa is concerned, I really don't care about that ... I'm quite content just being proud of my own city, without a comparison. I was very much hoping that Tulsa (county, as I understand it) would pass the River Tax. It is mind boggling to think of the good that probably would have done for the entire Tulsa metro.

But, if you think that my personal perceptions of how non-Tulsans have been and are viewed by lots of Tulsans are false (as in "not accurate"), you are badly mistaken, I think. Such notions have nothing to do with a sense of "persecution" or a persecution complex (whatever that is). It has to do with living with and through a long-time history of Tulsa's condescension and bad manners.

For example, consider your own reply. My post was not without sincere compliments to Tulsa. But, it seems to me that similar reciprocity comes from many Tulsans as though it as hard as having teeth being pulled to do it. I'll re-read your reply and see if I am mistaken in that regard.

No, I thought your post was interesting and I don't doubt that your experiences were accurately conveyed. Your motivations are clear. The part I found petty is that you make your indifference to Tulsa personal:

When Tulsa voters, city government, and business interests find it possible to "come together" and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, I'll be glad. I do like Tulsa, even if Tulsa doesn't like "me."

I also disagree with the premise of your statement--both that Tulsans haven't "come together" and that Tulsa needs to "pull itself up by the bootstraps." What do you think the new Greenwood ballpark development is? Show me a metric or even solid anecdotes (not teenagers' perceptions) that say Tulsa is "down." It's an OKC myth used to buttress your self-congratulatory superiority. I'm not going to put OKC down--I like it. The city has a lot of cool tihngs to do and is about to have a lot more with the NBA showing up. I also acknowledge your grudging ("per se") compliments towards Tulsa. But I will point out where you're feeding misconceptions about the town.

Sorry you used to feel looked down on. Grow up and be an adult. Until you do, you're only adding to an ugly rivalry.

[Doug Loudenback]

Sorry you used to feel looked down on. Grow up and be an adult. Until you do, you're only adding to an ugly rivalry.

I ain't never gonna grow up ... at least, I haven't at age 65 ... got my 1st FREE renewed driver's license last week, sort of a birthday present from the state, I guess. Your suggestion that I need to grow up, though, comes too late.

I'll make these additional comments to your message.

(1) I didn't "grudgingly" compliment Tulsa ... I've complimented Tulsa often, in this forum and elsewhere. My use of the term "per se" was synonymous with "by or in itself," or "without more," or, as I added, "as is." In other words, when I said, "I like Tulsa and think that it is a good city, per se, "as is," that is what I meant to say, and did. You added the "grudgingly" part, I didn't. "Per se" (as far as I'm aware) isn't used in the English language to connote a "barb" and I used the term correctly.

(2) I fail to see how I was being petty when I said that I'll be glad when voters, local government, and the business community come together and pull your city up by its bootstraps. I meant that. What that means, of course, is that despite what I said about not caring, I do, even if I use the "indifferent" mask as a learned self-protection ... note that I acknowledged that my words were, as I said, "an overstatement and represents an emotional response to enduring a lifetime of Tulsans telling me ...," etc. As to the essence of whether Tulsa, in these regards, has changed, I don't see many signs that Tulsa, as a whole, is much if any different about regarding non-Tulsans as something lesser than Tulsans. Maybe I'm wrong about that and were it possible to take an accurate poll of non-Tulsans on the point, maybe I'd be surprised to learn that most non-Tulsans disagree with what I said. But I doubt it.

(3) You may also mean to say, since I do not perceive that Tulsa has yet done that or has any need to do so, that I'm off base and, therefore, being petty. I'll save that for (5), below.

(4) As to what you call my "self-congratulatory superiority," there is only one area in which I think that Oklahoma Citians, as a whole, have demonstrated that a kernel of truth exists that we may actually be deserving of giving ourselves such adulatory praise, and I won't recount the "Maps" history here. You can read my observations about that topic here: Doug Dawgz Blog: The Three Amigos

(5) If Tulsa has already done the same or you think that it has, I've missed that. If you think that Tulsa doesn't need to do that (and I have no wish to debate the point with you), I'll just leave it at this: we disagree. I know that many in Tulsa are trying to revitalize downtown, and that is good. The new arena is good ... why it was built below NBA or NHL capacity standards, I don't know. But it looks grand, without a doubt. A downtown ballpark will be great, too.

But it's difficult to avoid the significance of the Tulsa River vote. There were those here who argued against the March 4 MAPS sales tax extension vote, using much the same arguments that were vigorously made in Tulsa concerning your own River Tax sales tax vote. Our own March 4 vote was "MAPS For Millionaires," the opponents argued. In Tulsa, the opposition's mantra was much the same.



There was a difference, though, and that was the outcome of the vote. See Doug Dawgz Blog: Can It Fail? for the analogy that I made there on March 1 about the vote before the March 4 vote.

So, you can call me petty, you can identify me as needing to grow up, and you can advance several other theses about me or my kin, but that won't help you persuade me that I've got it wrong, if that is your object. But, let me help out a little ... sometimes I AM petty. And my wife would definitely like it if I would grow up. But, as I said, that ain't gonna happen!

Thanks for being sorry that "I used to feel looked down on," but you're missing the point. I didn't just "feel" that way, we (I and my Okie kindred) were. And, as I said, I think that not that much has changed in that regard.

I also thank your for your well-received comments that you like Oklahoma City. I like Tulsa, too.

[HOT ROD]

Doug's post is clear and well written. It's also petty and shows a persecution complex.

What gets me is that everyone here apparently agrees. I just think it's weird. The animosity towards Tulsa is striking. People on this forum are literally defining OKC's success by its triumphs over Tulsa--witness the airport expansion thread, the NBA team name, hoping that Devon outbuilds the BOk Tower, etc.

What is it they say? Act like you've been there before. Stay classy, OKC.

Floyd, tulsa people consistently compare everything they have/do to what OKC does or does not have. and what OKC does have, Tulsan's always try to lay claim that it is because of the capital and that somehow means Tulsan's paid for it.

OKC is the largest city - so it should be obvious that OKC has bigger and better and more venues. Instead of it being a Seattle Spokane relationship (where they support each other but OBVIOUSLY Seattle has more/larger stuff) - Tulsa was out to prove long ago that their oil money could buy them respect and set them apart from the state.

They stuck their nose up at OKC for decades - even using their political will against anything OKC unless there was pork for Tulsa. Yet OKC had enough of this crap - believed in itself, and is now the CLEAR top city in the state. And yet Tulsans are still griping.

I know it is Tulsa's inferiority complex and everything - because really it should be a complimentary relationship with OKC getting major league stuff and Tulsa getting minor - and the state supporting both cities (that's how it is here in Washington with Seattle/Spokane).

but for some reason, Tulsa wants the nation to think of it larger than it is - and this has been at the expense of OKC.

Roles reverse - and look whose crying.

[HOT ROD]

Question for you HOT ROD:

How many Storm games have you been to?

none.


but if I were in OKC, I'd go to some. You guys have some girls with talent there in OU - and I think some of you really aren't looking at the potential of this league.

Is it major league? No. But - it is something entertaining that gives Girls something to look forward to professionally.

You have to remember, the league is young - and just now getting some quality women who can play. I'd watch Candace Parker any-day; she's one fine young woman!

And the girls from OU - I think the Storm should have come to OKC, it would have been a complete package; the OU girls could have come in - and it would have been rockin all year long (NBA then WNBA).

As for Tulsa, I've said this before - but I don't want Tulsa to get anything that competes with OKC's NBA team nor do I want them to get a major-league team while OKC having a minor league in the same sport. That just does not look right.

Sorry, No to the NHL or MLS or any of the Big 4 for Tulsa. Sorry. OKC is gunning for MLS and NHL would compete with OKC's NBA team (plus no way should OKC have the Blazers while Tul get NHL, sorry).

That leaves MLL, AFL, and WNBA - for the remaining 'major' sports. As for the AFL, if they got that - OKC would have to fold the YardDawgz. MLL could work - since Tulsa likes to be an Eastern city.

But I think WNBA would be the best. It would feed the OKC NBA team (since they could co-market) and would give Tulsa 'something' that OKC doesn't care about and that would not compete with OKC.

Otherwise, BoK would be a white elephant with regard to sports. The only other thing I could see, is it being used for music and college events.

As for the Staples Center comment, LA is a MUCH larger market than OKC - so Im sure they schedule events around the teams to make sure the venue gets used. Would the same thing happen to OKC?

I doubt it, when you have a facility 90 miles away sitting empty. No doubt, Tulsa would market themselves that way - hey, OKC's booked - we've got a facility and OKC could come up; you'd still get the state 'market'.

I think this is something they should go after - which will hit OKC during the NBA season more than you think. If even ONE concert that normally would go to OKC, instead goes up there due to the NBA (and the fact of national concert scheduling, they need to be in OK for a specific date) - well, that's a loss for OKC.

I dunno. I don't feel so anti-tulsa as some of you. I want them to get 'something'. But I dont want them to EVER compete with OKC on anything again.

Oh, Wichita is building an arena too. Sure, OKC's Ford Center is bigger and (will be) more luxurious than any in the region (save AArena), but OKC needs to make sure these smaller cities don't compete with it. Just my take.

[HOT ROD]

Also, there's nothing wrong with wanting Devon to be the tallest in the state.

that's not necessarily even meant to address Tulsa in any way.

Oklahoma City is the largest and most prosperous city - so it should have the tallest skyscrapers. Right?

Seattle is in WA, Houston is in TX, LA is in CA, Chicago definitely is in IL, Den is in CO... Even Phoenix in AZ, Vegas in NV, Phila in PA, CLE in OH, and SLC in UT. In EVERY state (except OK), their largest city has that state's tallest building(s).

It doesn't mean those state's 2nd cities don't have skyscrapers either, just the largest city has the tallest.

I want OKC to join that club - and there's nothing wrong with that.

[ddavidson8]

Can't we all just get along?

[metro]

In regards to the NLL OKC was a serious contender for expansion about a year or so ago. I wonder if the NBA changed all that. I looked at the NLL website now and we're not on the list of consideration, but Dallas now is:

majorleaguelacrosse.com: MLL Expansion

[Floyd]

I ain't never gonna grow up ... at least, I haven't at age 65 ... got my 1st FREE renewed driver's license last week, sort of a birthday present from the state, I guess. Your suggestion that I need to grow up, though, comes too late.

I'll make these additional comments to your message. . . .

I like your good humor. Points are well taken. I can't respond to all, but I can speak to some.

I'll ignore Hot Rod's comments above except to use them as Exhibit A for when I talk about self-congratulatory superiority. Those sentiments are absurd but they're real. That attitude, coming from the state capital, is very dangerous for a city like Tulsa. It makes no sense to relegate the town to permanent second priority. It means that every time the state doles out things like the Native American Cultural Center or a new research hospital, Tulsa watches that development go straight to OKC. This state needs to be a partnership, not a hierarchy.

On the river vote: There were some cool components--specifically, the parks and trails. Otherwise, though, it was going to dump $100 million into the water by dredging out a channel through the center. It had "boondoggle" written all over it. This shouldn't sound like sour grapes--I voted for it--but the issues with Tulsa leadership are real. The plan shouldn't have ever gone to a vote. Further, many of the components of the plan--low water dams, expanded parks and perhaps even Tulsa Landing, are coming to fruition without the extra tax.

Tulsa is doing some very cool things with its Comprehensive plan. Downtown is continuing to develop in a way that is entrepreneur-driven, one block at a time. The arena hasn't even opened yet. There will be a ballpark in place in two years, along with the Mickey Mantle museum (sorry Steve Lackmeyer). There are plans in the works for a "starter line" rail from downtown to the West Bank, connecting a Broken Arrow/Jenks commuter system. And while OKC has a thriving downtown, Tulsa has a wonderful Midtown that too often gets overlooked by the school bus field trip crowd. Swan Lake, Woodward Park, Cherry Street and Brookside are lovely, mixed-use areas that sales tax can't buy.

So as for this rivalry--I can't speak to it, perhaps I'm just a touch too young (28, not 65). Having gone to OU and lived in both cities, I feel very Oklahoman, not just Tulsan. I think the more time people in both towns could spend visiting/living in the other, the more easy-going this constant feud would be.

[metro]

Floyd, keep in mind HOT ROD is from Seattle (former Oklahoman), so his strong views aren't necessarily reflected by all here in the capital city of OKC.

On another note, how do you know if downtown Tulsa is getting the Mickey Mantle museum? Do you have a link with evidence? Please provide.

[JWil]

Man, why would the Mantle family want to tie his legacy with a city that is drowning in its own arrogance? Shame.

[Floyd]

Because the family is from the northeast part of the state, loves Tulsa, and Mantle had no natural ties to OKC.

It's not a done deal but word on the street is that the family and the Mayor discussed incorporating the museum into the new ballpark development. As you can see in the proposed site design, there's a placeholder set aside for a "possible baseball museum." Hm, wonder what that could be?



EDIT: here's the link to the Tulsa World story Tulsa World: Area around stadium key, aide says

[JWil]

How quaint.

[metro]

First off, I'm not sure why this thread isn't in the Tulsa section of the website instead of OKC Metro Area.

Floyd, the last article I read (see article at bottom of thread below), is that they are having funding problems and other objections to even getting the stadium done in downtown Tulsa. Secondly, there is a Mickey Mantles, Mantle's, Mickey Mantle Drive, and a Mickey Mantle statue in Bricktown PLUS it is more of a regional draw than downtown Tulsa, so I wouldn't say Bricktown is out of the running just yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/tulsa/13415-f...-ballpark.html

[LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZIDENT08]

If Tulsa wants a WNBA team then let them have it. It will not affect OKC at all... We will be too busy supporting our NBA team. So if Tulsa wants WNBA... GO ahead Tulsa it will be nice to have stars like candace Parker and Lida Leslie playing in Tulsa every year or so..


But I'm gonna stay in OKC and watch players like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, D12, Andrew Bynum

But good luck Tulsa

[Doug Loudenback]

I like your good humor. Points are well taken. I can't respond to all, but I can speak to some.

Good intentions accepted!

Maybe the Tulsa "midtown" area you had in mind is along E 15th St South, more or less east of the Tulsa County Bar Association on Boston. (I get crazy when trying to figure out Tulsa's street naming convention.) Yes, that's a very nice area with neat shops and some very good food. Another place that I like is the restored Ambassador Hotel ... the same people (Coury & Co) are the ones who bought the Colcord Building in Okc and turned it into a very nice downtown boutique hotel.

Like I said, I like Tulsa, "as is." That doesn't address the emotional issues which remain, but I do like Tulsa.