Projects.....

[Patrick]

Does anyone know what's being built on the canal just east of the Theatre? Noticed a building going up while there for lunch today. The building looks like it will be small, just one level. Anyone know?

Toby Keith's Roadhouse Bar, Grill, and Theater!

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Oh... I forgot about that. My post was kinda silly.

[Midtowner]

^ Firefox... sorry.

I could definately, and still defend Humphreys. He wasn't "judgmental" he was being cautious and protective of our city's valuable land, and not just giving it away to some twit w/ millions of bogus dollars.

I never said he was judgemental. Just a self-dealing politician that doled out tax dollars to his buddies in an unconstitutional way. There is no getting around the fact that it was in fact very unconstitutional. Article 10, Section 19.

There is a difference!

[downtownguy]

Seems like the judges disagreed with that "unconstitutional" bit... I'm not a judge. Neither are you. Do we really believe every judge in this state is part of a conspiracy against Moshe Tal?

[Midtowner]

Seems like the judges disagreed with that "unconstitutional" bit... I'm not a judge. Neither are you. Do we really believe every judge in this state is part of a conspiracy against Moshe Tal?

The Judges "interpreted" something that was in the Constitution to simply not be there. In other words, they ignored the Constitution. It's something that has been done many a-time in this state. Our State Constitution is a nearly meaningless document due to all of the gutless decisions our Supreme Court has made.

Here's Article 10, Section 19 for your reading:

10 § 19. Specification of purpose of tax - Devotion to another purpose.

Every act enacted by the Legislature, and every ordinance and resolution passed by any county, city, town, or municipal board or local legislative body, levying a tax shall specify distinctly the purpose for which said tax is levied, and no tax levied and collected for one purpose shall ever be devoted to another purpose.

Now, please explain to me how MAPS money, and money from other sales taxes passed specifically for other projects being redirected to Bass Pro is not in very clear violation of this law?

This is like the U.S. Supreme Court simply deciding that the second amendment didn't really say that citizens could keep and bear arms.

[Patrick]

Midtowner, I think downtownguy was referring to the conspiracy charges brought by Moshe Tal, not the Bass Pro deal.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, I think downtownguy was referring to the conspiracy charges brought by Moshe Tal, not the Bass Pro deal.

What I got was that he was attacking Moshe Tal's credibility based on the fact that he had filed a lot of lawsuits. I pointed out that his conspiracy lawsuit was actually progressing well for Moshe. I also pointed out that what Humphries did in the Bass Pro deal was illegal. The fact that people profited off of an illegal payout of tax money sounds awfully like a conspiracy to me...

[downtownguy]

Midtowner, I have nothing but respect for you and the opinions you've expressed prior to this. I just question why anyone would believe Mr. Tal when he has yet to win any of the law suits he has filed (other than a reversal of a frivilous lawsuit won against him).

[downtownguy]

As to Bass Pro, city leaders argued the use tax was not voted in by voters, but by the council, and was voted in without any specified purpose.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, I have nothing but respect for you and the opinions you've expressed prior to this. I just question why anyone would believe Mr. Tal when he has yet to win any of the law suits he has filed (other than a reversal of a frivilous lawsuit won against him).

The wheels of justice turn slowly. His main suit is not even close to being through with. We'll see where it goes. Until it's over though, I have a difficult time passing judgement.

[Midtowner]

As to Bass Pro, city leaders argued the use tax was not voted in by voters, but by the council, and was voted in without any specified purpose.

Well, I did the research, and as it turns out, you're right on the issue, I'm wrong.

From the city's website:

So how are we paying for the building construction? We are borrowing from three Use Tax reserve funds established by Council resolution: the MAPS Operations, City Schools Use Tax and Public Safety Capital Equipment Use Tax Funds.

Borrowing Use Tax is not only legal and above-board, it actually benefits the three funds because the loans will be repaid at above-market interest rates.

Our City Council was not unanimous in voting for the project – that's what representative government is about. But even those opposed to the project will confirm that neither MAPS Sales Tax or General Fund money is involved in constructing the building we'll lease to Bass Pro.

http://www.okc.gov/budget/FY03_04/q_and_a.html

I guess I'll drop the issue or legality now

I still believe that this was a bad deal. Even if nothing illegal transpired, it seems very unfair to me that taxpayer money was given to a company to do something that very easily could have been done with private funds. It seems unfair that Bass Pro is paying about 1/4 (or less) of what most people would say is "fair" for that lot. It seems unfair that other businesses have to compete for customers with a business that is the recipient of corporate welfare. Those are all philosophical concerns. Even Mayor Cornett has expressed the fact that he has some philosophical misgivings about the deal.

But perhaps I'm just a taxpayer feeling a little disenfranchised...

[downtownguy]

Midtowner, you have every right to be opposed to the Bass Pro deal. It was a controversial project that seemed to have equally valid arguments for and against it. As for Moshe Tal, no, his lawsuits never seem to have an end. But look at how many times he's appealed his cases to the state supreme court, only to be rejected.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, you have every right to be opposed to the Bass Pro deal. It was a controversial project that seemed to have equally valid arguments for and against it. As for Moshe Tal, no, his lawsuits never seem to have an end. But look at how many times he's appealed his cases to the state supreme court, only to be rejected.

Our Supreme Court has made some baffling decisions in the past. Tal's litigious nature is noted, but that has nothing to do with his claims. The fact that the Supreme Court even hears these cases (they have the option not to) lends quite a bit of validity to his appeals. Realize that the Supreme Court gets to choose which appeals it hears and which ones it does not.

[Patrick]

Honestly, I don't see what the difference is between Bass Pro leasing space from th city and Academy leasing space from Lakeshore Shopping Center. Both are leasing space from a landlord.

I suppose other restaurants could complain that Coach's is getting to lease space at the Bricktown Ballpark. I really don't see the difference between this and the Bass Pro issue.

[Midtowner]

Honestly, I don't see what the difference is between Bass Pro leasing space from th city and Academy leasing space from Lakeshore Shopping Center. Both are leasing space from a landlord.

I suppose other restaurants could complain that Coach's is getting to lease space at the Bricktown Ballpark. I really don't see the difference between this and the Bass Pro issue.

Easy: Acadamy pays rent at full market price.

Bass Pro pays rent for pennies on the dollar as far as what it should cost.

[Patrick]

Well, Randy Hogan got all of that land for free....is that fair?

[mranderson]

We may need to add one more we may have achieved.

KOCO announced on their newscast this morning that two Oklahoma lawmakers are introducing a bill raising DUI to a first offense felony. $2,500 fine and five years in the joint!

This is one thing I have been lobbying for for many years!

[Midtowner]

We may need to add one more we may have achieved.

KOCO announced on their newscast this morning that two Oklahoma lawmakers are introducing a bill raising DUI to a first offense felony. $2,500 fine and five years in the joint!

This is one thing I have been lobbying for for many years!

Wow. We already have one of the highest inmate populations per capita in the U.S..

If you want all of your tax dollars to go to pay costs for some kid that blew a .09, that's cool. You'll also have a wonderful chance to ruin a lot of peoples' lives due to one stupid mistake.

I'm not sure if you remember applying for your job, but they probably checked your background for felonies. If you had even a nonviolent felony from 20 years ago, they probably would not of hired you. That is one very difficult thing to deal with as far as our crime and punishment system. It used to be that when you had paid your debt to society, it was paid. Now, it follows you around for your life.

People aren't going to think about the consequences, or the fact that it's a felony. Especially after they've had a few drinks.

[mranderson]

By making DUI a first offense felony, most people will think twice about getting behind that wheel. Frankly, I could care less about the number of people in our prisons. Most deserve to be there, and many more that need to be there are released by the liberal court system.

If that guy that "blows a .09" goes to the joint, then maybe it will teach him. Plus, I bet a lot of companies will realize a mistake was made and the person has paid for it.

Oh. By the way. Maybe someone gets lucky and does not have an accident while driving drunk, however, it is still a violent crime. It is like some goomer pointing a firearm at you. A vehicle is a lethal weapon.

[Midtowner]

By making DUI a first offense felony, most people will think twice about getting behind that wheel. Frankly, I could care less about the number of people in our prisons. Most deserve to be there, and many more that need to be there are released by the liberal court system.

If that guy that "blows a .09" goes to the joint, then maybe it will teach him. Plus, I bet a lot of companies will realize a mistake was made and the person has paid for it.

Oh. By the way. Maybe someone gets lucky and does not have an accident while driving drunk, however, it is still a violent crime. It is like some goomer pointing a firearm at you. A vehicle is a lethal weapon.

You live in a black and white world apparently. I live in the real world.

In the real world, the state's budget is stretched to the limit by its prisons. We spend more on prisons than we do on schools. You suggest that we VASTLY increase our prison population. I know a lot of people off the top of my head that would now be in prison with felony records.

So far, the degree of punishment has not seemed to make any difference in detering people from committing crimes. Perhaps to the degree that they will often go the extra mile to evade the police on their third strike, but even though we're a death penalty state, we still have murder.

You'll put a lot of otherwise good people behind bars. MADD and other such organizations are trying to incrementally return us to the days of prohibition. Please name me one other state that calls a first DUI a felony? None exist? Perhaps that's the same reason that other states don't have cock boxing -- it's a bad idea.

With 2,000 bills being proposed this legislative session, only the ones that are deemed irrational and ridiculous are really getting any media attention. This certainly falls into that category.

[mranderson]

I have an idea for you midtowner. Why not just run for the senate or the house and make all crime legal. It seems that is what you want. In the mean time, I will sleep at night knowing someone is trying to get drunks off the street.

[Midtowner]

I have an idea for you midtowner. Why not just run for the senate or the house and make all crime legal. It seems that is what you want. In the mean time, I will sleep at night knowing someone is trying to get drunks off the street.

It is said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

Throughout the years, we have ratcheted up penalties on DUI's. We've lowered the level of alcohol legally allowed in the system, we've turned your 3rd violation into a felony, etc. I pose this to you -- with each new law, have we seen a corresponding decrease in the number of crimes?

[Keith]

We went from Moshe Tal to talking about DUI's.

[mranderson]

We went from Moshe Tal to talking about DUI's.

I agree. I made a comment about something that I wanted which makes it a project this board has accomplished, AND ONLY A COMMENT, and it starts a debate. I did not intend for that to happen.

[Midtowner]

I agree. I made a comment about something that I wanted which makes it a project this board has accomplished, AND ONLY A COMMENT, and it starts a debate. I did not intend for that to happen.

You should know better by now.

Please refer to my explanation of insanity