State Fairgrounds

[warreng88]

That and some sort of public commitment to broadly improve the grounds going forward would do a lot for me. We need to be approaching it holistically and not just as isolated big projects IMO.

What do you mean by "broadly improve the grounds"? Pardon my ignorance, I haven't been to the farigrounds in years, except for the arena to take my daughter to Disney on Ice. Are the overall paths and maintenance really bad?

[shawnw]

It's just buildings and parking lots at the moment. Not much different in appearance from Belle Isle shopping center (obviously an extreme example to make a point). If there's a master plan it doesn't seem like it. So, I'd say, develop a master plan, include some obvious things like trees, landscaping, etc, and work towards that master plan with future funds, both year-to-year budget and big project dollars from MAPS and other initiatives. If we could all feel like they were working toward some kind of grand design for the future, we'd be more emotionally and logically invested (similar to how we feel invested with downtown). Currently it feels like they do nothing until they get a MAPS project, they build that project in isolation, and then sit and wait until they get more someday. I get that that is a radically unfair generalization, but just making a point about the perception.

[PhiAlpha]

It's just buildings and parking lots at the moment. Not much different in appearance from Belle Isle shopping center (obviously an extreme example to make a point). If there's a master plan it doesn't seem like it. So, I'd say, develop a master plan, include some obvious things like trees, landscaping, etc, and work towards that master plan with future funds, both year-to-year budget and big project dollars from MAPS and other initiatives. If we could all feel like they were working toward some kind of grand design for the future, we'd be more emotionally and logically invested (similar to how we feel invested with downtown). Currently it feels like they do nothing until they get a MAPS project, they build that project in isolation, and then sit and wait until they get more someday. I get that that is a radically unfair generalization, but just making a point about the perception.

That’s been my problem with the State Fair Grounds. It just seems like the keep tearing down cool historic features and throwing up new buildings and parking lots without any real development plan.

[hoya]

Question for the board as I am genuinely curious: if MAPS4 including a new arena at the fairground (say, $50MM), but also $20MM in upgrades to the grounds that didn't include the facilities, rebuilding the arch, other iconic structures, would you vote for it then or would that not be enough? Again, I don't have a dog in the fight, just wanted to know the thoughts of the board.

I'm not going to promise my vote one way or the other. It depends on the total package proposed for MAPS 4. I don't like how the fairgrounds operates, it seems the people in charge are quite secretive with how they do things, and that makes me suspicious. But even if they had a $100M proposal for "give the fairgrounds a bunch of money and nobody ask what they do with it", it's possible that the other MAPS projects could make up for it. I might still vote yes. Nothing has been proposed yet, but I'm 100% certain that I'll think some of the projects are stupid and a waste of money.

I was against the convention center when MAPS 3 passed, and I stayed against it until I went to a convention at the Cox Center. Then I was like "oh crap, we definitely need a new convention center". So I'm open to changing my mind on things. With MAPS 4, it's all going to depend on what gets proposed. I have a certain level of tolerance for "this is a dumb project" in my MAPS support. As long as the total doesn't exceed that level, and we've got an offsetting amount of "this is a great project", I'll still vote for it.

[hoya]

The problem with the State Fair is that I basically never go there apart from visiting the Fair once every two or three years. And when I go, every time I see fewer of the things I remember. Oh, the arch thing fell down. Now the space needle is gone. Where did the old mansion go? The monorail hasn't worked since I was a kid. All the cool, quirky things that I liked are gone. In their place are these ugly, boring, giant livestock barns.

Now, maybe those ugly boring livestock barns bring in huge amounts of money. They look ugly, but maybe they're super functional and efficient, and maybe the people who bring horses here for the shows are really happy with them. I have no idea, I'm not one of those people. I have no way to judge that. And maybe the old things I loved about the State Fair bring in zero dollars. For all I know, the upkeep costs for the cool stuff I liked were so high that the State Fair was losing money every year. Again, I really can't say.

My guess is that the people in charge of the fairgrounds think that the State Fair encourages every kind of bad stereotype about Oklahoma. They think trailer trash redneck, and they don't want to be associated with that at all. So they've just quietly killed things off through neglect. They think it's Cletus the slack-jawed yokel, and they don't want Cletus around. That's my guess, but they're so secretive about everything they do that there's no way to confirm or deny.

[Laramie]

Where are our design gurus out there.

Build & kill two birds with one stone--Multipurpose indoor soccer stadium arena on city owned land or State Fair Park:

Couldn't we combine a multipurpose soccer-arena indoor stadium using a 1,000 seat partition section of seats for a smaller arena venue (take up half the field) that could be rolled back when the larger soccer-American football stadium events are in use.

Leave the suites unfinished; allow those who want to purchase suites to custom build the suites (first rights to build for Funk-MacLaughlin) and lease or own them to interested party/parties or allow them to own outright if they build. Say $1 million per suite--offset some cost of building the stadium-arena.

The indoor soccer stadium-arena probably could be built on a budget of $130 million with a maximum seating capacity of 25,000 for traditionally outdoor sports and downsized with the partition section seats using half the soccer field to 13,500 for arena sports like rodeo, ice hockey & basketball. The suites could further offset the cost of $130 million--allow space for 75 suites.

Does that make sense?

[PaddyShack]

Where are our design gurus out there.

Build & kill two birds with one stone--Multipurpose indoor soccer stadium arena on city owned land or State Fair Park:

Couldn't we combine a multipurpose soccer-arena indoor stadium using a 1,000 seat partition section of seats for a smaller arena venue (take up half the field) that could be rolled back when the larger soccer-American football stadium events are in use.

Leave the suites unfinished; allow those who want to purchase suites to custom build the suites (first rights to build for Funk-MacLaughlin) and lease or own them to interested party/parties or allow them to own outright if they build. Say $1 million per suite--offset some cost of building the stadium-arena.

The indoor soccer stadium-arena probably could be built on a budget of $130 million with a maximum seating capacity of 25,000 for traditionally outdoor sports and downsized to with the partition section seats using half the soccer field to 13,500 for arena sports like rodeo, ice hockey & basketball. The suites could further offset the cost of $130 million--allow space for 75 suites.

Does that make sense?

Not saying I like or want an indoor soccer arena, but the field does need to be natural grass in order to host U.S. Open Cup games. Plus turf looks atrocious on televised games.

[Laramie]

Not saying I like or want an indoor soccer arena, but the field does need to be natural grass in order to host U.S. Open Cup games. Plus turf looks atrocious on televised games.

Good question:

Indoor-stadium-arena with a retractable roof:

You could keep it natural grass. For ice hockey you could place a portable ice rink over the grass--similar to the Ice Capades for the State Fair Arena. Rodeo/PBR, you bring in dirt placed over plastic cover. This multipurpose stadium-arena could potentially be used 75-100 days a year for events.

Why not a stock & trade show like they do in Houston and San Antonio. You wouldn't have to interfere with The Peake Arena with a multipurpose venue at State Fair Park. We could gradually rebuild the Fairgrounds; imagine the developments along N.W. 10th from Penn to Meridian that could benefit from State Fair Park's indoor-stadium-arena.

[stile99]

The lights should be taken care of through the general fund or the GOLT bonds, including the massive new streets initiative.

We don't need another tax for something the city needs to be doing anyway (which actually pertains to the roads as well).

Darn it, I had typed up a big rant about MAPS not devolving to being for stuff the city should be taking care of anyway and deleted it. Didn't want to get all political, but yeah. If MAPS is going to just be sidewalks and streetlights, it's had a great run but it might be done.

[Dob Hooligan]

I think there is a master plan for the Fairgrounds. I just don't think management is doing a good job of sharing it, and I don't know why. I'm guessing the Gaylord family influence over the State Fair Board, and their very private nature of doing business, help create the impression they have something to hide.

I believe State Fair Park is an underutilized piece of real estate.

[shawnw]

agreement all around

[David]

There needs to be far more public accountability for the Fairgrounds if they want any more MAPS money. Any public accountability at all would be a nice start.

[d-usa]

Unless we spend a huge amount of money, a natural turf stadium won’t ever get build at the fair grounds because it’s not going to work well with the livestock needs of the fair.

I’m also not against spending money on the fair. But what I do have an issue with is giving money to what basically amounts to be a private enterprise that already receives lots of money, has a history of not maintaining what is already there, and has no transparency regarding how they manage their existing funding while asking for more.

[Laramie]

Think about it:

In all fairness, I believe we've created an artificial dichotomy (include myself) about the State Fair Board Trust. The more we research about state & county fairs we've learned that many are not as profitable as one might think. They barely possess funds for operational expenses: daily 24 hour security, utilities, building & ground maintenance. They don't have money for major infrastructure or capital improvement projects.

[Bill Robertson]

A soccer/football sized feild is horrible for basketball/ hockey. The size disparity is too big. I’ve been to both basketball and hockey set up in football stadiums. It just didn’t work.

[d-usa]

Think about it:

In all fairness, I believe we've created an artificial dichotomy (include myself) about the State Fair Board Trust. The more we research about state & county fairs we've learned that many are not as profitable as one might think. They barely possess funds for operational expenses: daily 24 hour security, utilities, building & ground maintenance. They don't have money for major infrastructure or capital improvement projects.

Nobody is saying they are a rich board doing whatever with the money.

We are saying that we have no idea what their finances are.

[OKCRT]

Fairgrounds is all about horse shows. No need to build palaces for them. The way they run that place and make decisions it's obvious they don't want the general publics opinion on what to do so why would the general pub be so generous to them?

[mugofbeer]

Fairgrounds is all about horse shows. No need to build palaces for them. The way they run that place and make decisions it's obvious they don't want the general publics opinion on what to do so why would the general pub be so generous to them?

I guess thats why the National Finals Rodeo left for Vegas or Ft. Worth has built a Taj Mahal of an arena for horse and Livestock shows. Everyone likes a nicer facility and bigger money. OKC needs a new arena orvwill start losing those shows quickly to Ft. Worth.

[Laramie]

A soccer/football sized feild is horrible for basketball/ hockey. The size disparity is too big. I’ve been to both basketball and hockey set up in football stadiums. It just didn’t work.

Older pic of the Metrodome (Minneapolis): Imagine a smaller soccer stadium where you use one end to configure the basketball/ice hockey configuration.

Not sure you extrapolated my post #806; we're not talking about a basketball or ice hockey game played on a soccer/American football field like say the Houston NFL NRG Stadium or the Astrodome.

Again, I mentioned using only half the field & half the seating of the full stadium with temporary portable seats moved in or built to custom fit the open end where the basketball/ice hockey configuration using half the stadium.

[bombermwc]

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

[PaddyShack]

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

Also ask anyone who has played or been to a Syracuse BBall game, they are a similar setup and it sucks.

[shawnw]

Also we had a pressure dome roof/building already on the state fairgrounds and we let it go to pot.

[baralheia]

Laramie, i think you just made the point for Bill with that picture. The Metrodome is a good example of how that setup sucks...and it sucks hard.

I've never actually experienced a setup like this in person... can you explain why it sucks? On paper, it seems like a reconfigurable arena like this would make a lot of sense due to it's flexibility.

[jedicurt]

I've never actually experienced a setup like this in person... can you explain why it sucks? On paper, it seems like a reconfigurable arena like this would make a lot of sense due to it's flexibility.

i'm curious as to the issues others have as well... my experience with events in arenas set up like this is just terrible acoustics and echos... but other than that, it had little affect on the events themselves.

[Laramie]

Also we had a pressure dome roof/building already on the state fairgrounds and we let it go to pot.

Shawnw, not a dome, a retractable roof. My example of the Metrodome was setup configuration in a smaller stadium.

All of you guys out there who want to look for a grain of salt to vote against MAPS 4; again, have you contributed any ideas to the Mayor's office.

You have a voice with Ideas 4 MAPS; If we eventually decide to make the penny sales tax extension a permanent part of the city's general fund; YOU WON'T HAVE A VOICE.

Ideas 4 MAPS: https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-4