Why stay in Oklahoma?

[Eddie1]

As the father of a three year going to soon be living this "education hell", what, specifically, makes this state terrible on school? Not enough teachers, no materials, substandard test scores, etc? Just curios as to why its a nightmare.

[C_M_25]

I'm a born-and-bred Oklahoman. As is my wife. All my family is from here as well, and I've never lived out of the state. My demographic is upper-middle class, less than 40 years old, and I have a growing family with two small kids. I have never had any aspirations to leave this state; however, with age, experience, and changing priorities, I find myself asking: Why stay in Oklahoma??

Politics (I'll keep it brief here as I don't want this to turn into a political thread): The politics in our state are a joke. Honestly, most of our problems start here. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. We are starting the legislative session for 2018; yet, we are starting a concurrent legislative session for 2017. Seriously?? We are broke. We have no plan for the future. Kids are pawns to gain political advantage rather than the focus for improving our future. Etc Etc

Lack of Industrial diversity: The oil and gas industry is strong here. If you are working in the industry, you are doing very well. We also have Tinker, which is huge. Other than that, it seems like everything else is small potatoes. We tried to bring in Amazon, but it was almost a cruel joke comparing our state/cities with the others on the list. What future does this state have when the oil/gas industry disappear in the next generation or so?

Flailing Infrastructure: Our roads are a joke. Public transportation is very limited. It seems like our strategy for improving our roads is non-existent. Just keep patching the old patches and kick the can down the road.

Schools: Our school systems are failing. My wife was teacher, and her pay was abysmal with long hours. Luckily her boss was very nice and supportive. Unfortunately, few of the parents were supportive. She worked in a booming school district; yet, she had the bare minimum in the classroom. Our state currently has no budget for 2018, so all the extra curricular activities (after school events, math/science clubs, etc) are on the chopping block. Unless it is football related, it is likely to be cut. It doesn't help we are losing teachers like crazy to nearby states. How can anybody be excited to move their family here? How can anybody be excited to stay here?

I can go on-and-on. Our state has so much potential. We have beautiful landscapes across the state. We have a wonderful distribution of natural resources. There are so many intelligent kids that may never get a voice because they will not get the support they need growing up. It is painfully clear that our legislature is like putty. Bring in enough money and jobs, and you can get them to do whatever you want. We still struggle to draw large businesses though. The really sad part is that people like me, who would have never ever considered moving from this amazing place, are starting to wonder whether to stick around. Changing priorities tend to do that. Looking around, there are so many more opportunities in all directions next door. I'm not saying that I'm going to move, but I worry about the future of our state unless we can make changes soon.

[bradh]

Our situation was a bit different, as we had no family in OKC, but when a local "booming" district straight up told us if they were us they'd move, we left and didn't look back. Our move was strictly education related. We would have stayed if that piece worked for us.

[dankrutka]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

[SOONER8693]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

You get a standing ovation from me for that post Dan.

[mugofbeer]

You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

[bradh]

Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

[C_M_25]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

I think that is all well said, and I don't disagree with any of it. I'm sure most states have their issues politically.

The diversity thing doesn't affect me directly; however, I know the ups-and-downs of commodities, and this state runs into huge problems when oil/gas crashes. Industrial diversity would help buoy our state budgets by having other things that can provide tax revenue during down times in the oil industry. While we may be diverse across Oklahoma, we're still predominantly tied to the success of oklahoma's oil and gas. It would be nice to have another big-time company or two in the state (Amazon would have been nice but not realistic) to help balance us out a bit.

[C_M_25]

You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

I think our highway network is good. It is actually very well laid out. I also agree that congestion is non-existant and that is fine with me. I do enjoy the commute times. However, these aren't the problems I have with our infrastructure. It is mostly a maintenance/quality issue. I've driven in enough cities/states to see that we are drastically behind them in these regards.

[BG918]

One very big thing that Oklahoma has is a low cost of living. And I realize that is tied to the lack of a dynamic economy that drives up costs (supply and demand) in larger cities. But if you do have a higher paying job then you can live in a very nice house something you can’t do in many other places. You might be able to have a pool or country club/golf membership. And not sit in traffic for over an hour every day. And you have built-in babysitters for your kids (grandparents).That is a good reason to stay IMO. Just take vacations to larger cities and beaches/mountains.

[dankrutka]

Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

[dankrutka]

Here's how I'd rank the driving experience in the states I've lived:
1. Kansas: There's no traffic, even in Wichita. It's kind of unreal.
2. Oklahoma: Traffic is genearlly fine outside of a few bad spots at rush hour, but that's predictable.
3. Texas: The risk of being caught in awful traffic is so much higher than anywhere in OK or KS. I regularly will sit in standstill traffic at 10pm at night. I once sat on the highway for 20 straight minutes at 4am on my way to the airport and almost missed my flight. It deters you from even going places. It's often because DFW has grown so much that there's constantly construction to catch up with both the growth and the sprawl. When construction finishes in one place they just start the next place. In most areas, it never ends, but there are exceptions. And, while DFW has a variety of public transportation, most of it is not very useful as it's built around a suburban park-and-ride model (A-Train/DART Green Line) or it just takes too long to get places because of vast sprawl.

[bradh]

Well I tried last summer but your PM inbox was full

[C_M_25]

Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

This is probably my main reason for starting this. There are things wrong with our state. We all know that. The big question is, how long can we endure times like we are in now before we lose enough young talent/young families to really impact our state? What happens if Devon (one of our crown jewels) ever leaves or sells? There are a lot of "what if's" that could happen, and I know it's all very speculative. I just worry about my children's future growing up in a state that seems to be on a razor's edge. I want to live here long-term. I want this state to be one of the best in the country, but we will never move in that direction if we start losing our best talent.

[bradh]

I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

[bchris02]

This is a good question.

I moved back to Oklahoma from Charlotte NC in 2012 and I didn't really want to. However, I was working in a dead-end job in Charlotte, the recession was dragging on, and the economy here was much better. The biggest reason is that my family was pressuring me to move back to this part of the country. While I lived in OKC as a child and a teenager, I had not lived here as an adult and had been away for 10 years so in many ways I was like a transplant in my (sort of) hometown. It was a rough adjustment initially, but not all of that was Oklahoma's fault (I was dealing with some serious personal issues around that time as well).

Why do I stay? Currently I have a decent job that I like, am close to family, and am not in a financial situation where I could leave without doing something very risky. If one of those three things were to change, I would probably leave. In the meantime I am comfortable here, especially since I moved downtown. OKC's entertainment options have improved many times over since I moved back here. While the roads are in very poor condition comparative to other places I've lived or spent significant time in, traffic flows much smoother here than in a big city. A lot of exciting things are on the horizon for OKC over the next few years as well, especially with the streetcar and the new convention center coming online. OKC in 2020 is going to look significantly different from 2018 with everything currently in the pipeline. While I really prefer larger cities (cities like Charlotte, Portland, Denver, and Kansas City are my ideal size), OKC offers a lot more than it used to.

If I was to leave it would be for the following reasons.

1) Politics - this has been covered enough and yes other states do have their nutty legislators, but Oklahoma is among the worst of the worst. I would prefer to live in a blue state or a more moderate red one. Oklahoma's education problem ties back to this larger issue. This state's legislature seems to only exist to serve two special interest groups; the oil & gas lobby and the fundamentalist churches. While Oklahoma's public education system is racing to the bottom, the legislature is concerned about things like "school choice" and freedom to homeschool without accountability. Also don't forget about the big deal that was made a couple of years ago about AP courses not being pro-America or pro-Christian enough.

2) Weather - In terms of my own preferences, I can't think of very many places in North America that have a worse climate than central Oklahoma. The best way to sum it up is I don't like the crazy extremes and really don't like the spring severe weather season, especially after 2013. While some places may have more extreme seasons such as Minnesota in the winter or Arizona in the summer, those places are very nice for a large portion of the year.

3) Too many bad memories/negative emotions associated with this place. Not going into specifics on this forum.

[emtefury]

I have lived in Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Nebraska, South Carolina, California, and now Oklahoma. I have found the grass is not always greener on the other side. Every state has issues. Every state does things well and not well. For example, California spends a ton on education, but the schools where we lived were not good. South Carolina has terrible zoning. Pennsylvania has really high property tax. I could go on. Every state I lived in is trying to improve and Oklahoma is no different.

[dankrutka]

I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

[Celebrator]

I really appreciate the tone of this thread. Honest talk without extremes in negatives or turning a blind eye to the opportunities for improvement. If only all public discourse these days could be this respectful and honest. I have lived in all four corners of the nation (OR, CA, NH, FL, and now OK) and I can say that I love this place the most (our reasons why have pretty much already been mentioned above) but each place has its strengths and you just have to decide which state has strengths that best match what's most important to you in life, so that you can accept the trade-offs.

We are home schooling our children, so the education aspect doesn't affect us on a day-to-day basis as of yet. However, the longer the lack of commitment to educational funding goes on, the more quality of life will go down--affecting EVERYONE--whether they have kids in the schools or not. And we would be home-schooling even if we lived in Massachusetts where the public schools are supposedly the nation's best--just our choice and there are lots of great opportunities for home-schoolers around here, so it works great for us. But I fully understand I have a stake in the education system simply because I live here and want to see the public education situation turn the corner now.

[jerrywall]

Oklahoma has been great to me and my family. Both of my kids needed an IEP in school and the schools were great with it. There are jobs a plenty. Cost of living is great. There's a great culture. There are so many nerd and art opportunities that it's nuts. Some of the best medical professionals in the world operate out of here. The surgeon who didy son's heart surgery did so a day after doing the same for a Saudi Prince who flew in. Our Indi music scene is small but still there. We have this thriving craft brewery industry. Education needs work of course and politics is about as annoying as everywhere else. I love the weather, the traffic, and the people. No place is perfect but I'm as happy here as I'd be anywhere b

[BBatesokc]

I don't get the need to "flee Oklahoma." I've lived here all my life and visit other states on a regular basis. Been married for almost 20 years and we have zero desire to leave. Raised one son here who's now 25 and he has no desire to leave either. As for education - I think a lot of it is what you make of it. Most of our closest friends have young adult children that were educated here and are doing great. In fact, only a couple have any desire to leave the state at all. Our son is a product of Del City High School and we couldn't be prouder of him. He gave college a try and it wasn't for him - he's always been a get your hands dirty kind of kid. So, he went to welding school in Tulsa and is now a supervisor making over $60K a year at only 25 years old and no degree.

He stays for the same reason we do; plenty of land/housing to be had for a relatively low price. He wants a small acreage like we have. You can live in the burds but be in the city within 20 minutes. Cost of living is low, employment is low, and there is plenty to do if you enjoy the outdoors. He could take his skills to most any state he wanted to. Yet, as a young adult he prefers to see his dollars go further here.

[Timshel]

I am in the group of late 20-somethings that left for a few years (New York) and decided to come back. While this is somewhat industry specific and I'm sure there are people who may not agree but I believe the quality of life in OKC, on the whole, is better here than in NYC. I went from working 12-15 hour days six days a week to generally an 8-6 schedule while taking a slight, if any, pay cut after factoring in cost of living, etc. Living in a "cooler" city doesn't mean much if you don't have the time or disposable income to enjoy what the city has to offer. In OKC, the day-to-day entertainment options are just as good as anywhere else and for me at least, I have substantially more time and flexibility to travel to other places. While some of OKC's issues are severe, I'm generally in "the grass isn't always greener" camp - every city has its issues but overall I believe OKC is headed in the right direction, despite our state's political leadership.

To be sure, the political and education issues are huge concerns and will quickly, if they haven't already, create systemic and long-lasting consequences for our state. Hopefully we will see positive momentum on this front in this year's elections. Also, it is significantly easier to get involved in OKC compared to larger cities. One of my goals for this year is to try and be more involved, on a micro and macro level, to try and improve OKC's educational prospects. Also - and I completely understand they are not for everyone - I would encourage parents to look into OKC's private schools. While it's not an answer to our city and state's education issues, it could make sense for your family. I grew up in a very middle-class single parent home, and while my mother definitely had to sacrifice so that I could grow up going to a private school, we would both say it was worth it. In my experience, there are a number of OKC private schools that are more socioeconomically, racially, etc. diverse (though not as much as they should be) compared to the stereotype that provide a very good education for a reasonable cost. While private schools are not without issues and do not solve the larger problems, they are an option.

All-in-all Oklahoma has serious issues but also has a lot going for it - like anything, our experience here is what we make of it. Though I agree with bchris that the weather is pretty crappy!

[dankrutka]

I'll also just add something my father told me when I went to college, you'll get out of it what you put into it. Almost no matter where you live, if you get involved local organizations, attend local events, and invest in your local community, you're likely to find that community worth your time and energy. The size of Oklahoma makes it easier in some ways to feel like you can make a difference too.

[bradh]

Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

[dankrutka]

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

Messages are cleared out. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I am not an IDEA expert, but I've never heard of differences between applications in states. However, if you or others are not receiving services you should then I will reach out to experts in IDEA law to find out more.