Plans may be in place to reduce the Fire dept by an additional 45 personnel

[Mikemarsh51]

On July 1st of this year the city eliminated 29 positions from the Fire dept. This caused the reduction of 1 Engine Company and 3 Brush Pumpers. Shortly after this happened the Fire administration ordered one of the Brush pumpers be manned with personnel from elsewhere. This was a trail balloon floated to see if it would be noticed. It was, and a grievance was filed and the project was stopped. In discussions with the Fire Chief, it was brought up that these formally manned rigs were now "tools" at the Fire station and could be used as the officer saw fit.

In 2008, the city funded 951 positions. 202 through the Public Safety sales tax and 749 through the general fund. This year the Fire dept. is funded this way, 200 through the PSST, 45 through a one year, temporary Maps3 Use tax and 677 through the general fund.

If you do the math you will see that there are 15 Brush Pumpers in service, multiply that by 3 shifts that equals 45 positions. When asked in a meeting if the 45 Temporary Maps 3 use tax
positions were in danger of being eliminated at the fiscal years end and those rigs being deemed as "tools", the Fire Chief would not deny that possibility.

If you support further reduction in your Fire services, do nothing. If you are concerned about the dangers of further reductions in Fire services, please contact your council member

[Larry OKC]

Isn't the MAPS 3 Use Tax "committed" for 2 years?

I know Cornett's plan was using it for 2 years which would hopefully get us past the low sales tax receipts (and for the past 5 months, sales tax revenues have been up, sometimes significantly). However, they were at a such low point to begin with, don't think we are close to being at the point where they were before the year long double digit declines. In Tuesday's Council meeting some still are urging caution (wisely so), noting that they still think the bump is due to the storms we had and replacement roofs etc.

[Mikemarsh51]

Patrick Ryan made It perfectly clear, even specifically asking the Mayor twice whether or not this was a one year deal. Ryan also reiterated that it was a one year only funding of those positions.

Sales tax revenues for this fiscal year are 4 million dollars higher than the similar time in 2008. You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

[kevinpate]

... You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

Raises a good discussion question, at least to me. As the GF is paying for 80 fewer positions, one might wonder if the gross amount of GF dollars for the FD has declined in your comparison periods, with those funds going to some other part of the city now. Or, one might wonder if, notwithstanding GF now covers 80 fewer positions in the FD, the expenses associated with the FD had risen at a level that there is still more GF going into the FD now than there was before.

Anyone know which scenario is closer to the mark?

[jdcf]

Adequate FD staffing and equipment are iimperative to the safety and well being of this city.

[Swake2]

Is the staffing currently inadequate? What specifically has been the negative impact?

[OKCTalker]

Sales tax revenues for this fiscal year are 4 million dollars higher than the similar time in 2008. You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

Mike - Weren't sales tax revenues DOWN in 2009, and aren't we digging ourselves out of that hole, especially in light of tenuous current/future revenue situations?

[jdcf]

If there are not personnel to operate the brush pumpers, for example, the city is in a precarious situation when it comes to fighting grass fires. I don't believe that the regular engine and ladder trucks can access as easily places like fields, areas between trees, etc. because of their weight, for one thing.

[Kerry]

We are going through similar discussion here in Jax where the City Council is trying to push through a 9% increase in property taxes, which as you can imagine, is going over like a lead ballon. This has prompted people to start taking a hard look at what the City spends money, and eliminating it. A few of things found so far is the city paying for an official city band, several hundred season tickets to the Jags, a multi-million contract to ensure the city is selecting enough minority owned business to contract with, paying for a community picnic for inner city kids and their families, funds the Jackonville Human Rights Commission to the tune of $1 million, $21 million to the Children's Commision, $10 million to a group called Jackosnville Journey, and the list goes on and on.

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

[Swake2]

If there are not personnel to operate the brush pumpers, for example, the city is in a precarious situation when it comes to fighting grass fires. I don't believe that the regular engine and ladder trucks can access as easily places like fields, areas between trees, etc. because of their weight, for one thing.

Why can't the same staff man both? What do the 45 firefighters that staff this equipment do the 6+ months plus a year where there are no grass fires? Is cross training for efficiency not possible?

[jmarkross]

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

I wonder when folks will realize...Police and Fire come BEFORE parks, libraries, you name it-- and all the other things. Period, drop dead.

[Midtowner]

How will reducing fire staff by 45 personnel effect readiness?

[Swake2]

And what is the city staffing to be ready for? What kind/size of event? How often does an event that size happen historically.

[Midtowner]

And what is the city staffing to be ready for? What kind/size of event? How often does an event that size happen historically.

The fire department doesn't do much in the way of actually fighting fires. We spend an awful lot of money on them so that they can go to calls which our A++++ rated EMSA already goes to. If it were up to me, I'd probably get rid of a lot more fire fighters so that we could more adequately staff the police department.

[Kerry]

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

I wonder when folks will realize...Police and Fire come BEFORE parks, libraries, you name it-- and all the other things. Period, drop dead.

You know this, I know this, Firefighters/Police know this... but for some reason politicans don't know this. I guess there are more votes to be had with parks, libraries, picnics, etc... Don't get me wrong though, hiring more firefighters for the sake of hiring more firefighters isn't a good idea either. Anyone know the Key Performance Indicators that are used to determine 'adequate resources'? The logic that says we have to have enough to staff all the trucks doesn't sound like a solid justification to me because the solutioon to that easy - just get rid of the extra fire trucks.

[Larry OKC]

Mike - Weren't sales tax revenues DOWN in 2009, and aren't we digging ourselves out of that hole, especially in light of tenuous current/future revenue situations?

True. But his point was collections are above 2008 levels (not 2009), presumably before the decline (at least the worst part).

As far as the 2 year thing I mentioned in a previous post...the 2 year guarantee/commitment of the MAPS 3 Use Tax (M3UT)/no cuts to fire/police, was for the then current fiscal year (before the vote and budget approval) and now. So the "only" for 1 year is technically correct. My problem isn't with that, but that they said no positions would be cut and in fact, positions were cut. Now they plan on cutting even more? There is nothing stopping them from using additional M3UT at a later date (but no commitment to do so).

[Larry OKC]

You know this, I know this, Firefighters/Police know this... but for some reason politicans don't know this. I guess there are more votes to be had with parks, libraries, picnics, etc... Don't get me wrong though, hiring more firefighters for the sake of hiring more firefighters isn't a good idea either. Anyone know the Key Performance Indicators that are used to determine 'adequate resources'? The logic that says we have to have enough to staff all the trucks doesn't sound like a solid justification to me because the solutioon to that easy - just get rid of the extra fire trucks.

They did that too. According to the info on the flyer, they cut 29 Fire positions and 4 fire trucks from the budget. Don't know if those 4 include the truck that had already been MAPS for Kids Use Tax money ($4M, mol) had been earmarked and was instead diverted to pay for improvements to the Cox for the Barons hockey.

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

Maybe/maybe not. I'm guessing that when you figure in pensions and benefits, the city might come out better with EMSA rather than increasing the number of firefighters and city owned ambulances. It'd be worth a study at the very least.

[OKCTalker]

There are smarter, better-read and -informed people here than me, certainly about sources of public funds going into public services. Some of the sources are discretionary (general fund, I believe), while others are dedicated (M3UT). BUT - Since those sources of funds are based primarily on sales tax revenues, and sales tax collections are down in this recession, wouldn't it make sense that money simply isn't coming in to the extent that it once was, and that the pain is going to be shared across the board? So isn't this topic really about "my ox is getting gored more than your ox?" If so, then shouldn't we all just HTFU until better times come around?

[Steve]

EMSA paramedics don't get paid overtime for when they are on vacation. FACT: Oklahoma City firefighters, by their contract, do.

[Mikemarsh51]

Steve, why do you have to pick a fight every time? It seems through your post that you are putting "blame" on firefighters for agreeing to something the city proposed. Let's cover this again. The city in their infinite wisdom decided to cure manpower issues about ten years ago. They thought if they offered us the option of vacation and holiday pay to be considered hours worked. They did this thinking the firefighters would take off less. In theory it worked for a time. But when you don't replace those who retire it makes it hard to stretch the manpower. So why don't you present it next time that the city is a bunch of idiots for wanting to pay people overtime for being on vacation. Hey, remember Steve there are 29 less firefighters getting that overtime this year. That ought to count for some savings, hub?

How about the city paying a company to run it's business. Don't you think the city could use that million or so dollars instead of it going to a Texas hospital?

[Steve]

Not picking fights, just pointing out an example of how EMSA paramedics cost less than firefighters.

[Mikemarsh51]

Steve, why don't you tell everyone about the paramedics that get paid a 200 dollar bonus plus mileage of about 115 dollars, to drive to Tulsa. To work 1 shift to cover the shortages in manpower up there.

[Larry OKC]

Maybe/maybe not. I'm guessing that when you figure in pensions and benefits, the city might come out better with EMSA rather than increasing the number of firefighters and city owned ambulances. It'd be worth a study at the very least.

A study would definitely be in order. From what I understand, not sure if any additional fire personnel would be needed since they are responding to calls anyway and read somewhere that the City owns the ambulances anyway (so not sure why the number would necessarily increase).

In today's Oklahoman, it mentioned that our ambulance service got high marks. Do we really want to change it?

Am all for deleting duplication of effort (fire and EMSA both responding to the same calls), City/County duplication of services etc. Point is make sure you are getting rid of the right ones.