Projects.....

[BricktownGuy]

I couldn't really think of a better place to post this...

I have read some about some of the projects that a few of you are currently working on....

I was curious... what all OKC projects are a result of OKCTalk... meaning what projects gained their birth as a result of an idea or suggestion from it being mentioned on this site.

[Patrick]

Good question.....I'll have to think on this for awhile, but I'll mention a few things. Since OKC Talk is so young, this forum really hasn't seen any results yet. But, several of us on this forum have been together on other city forums, including the old City Hall Talkback forum, for years now....it's taken years for our ideas to be implemented......it just takes time!

1. I-240 was renamed thanks to Mr. Anderson. I'll let him comment on this.

2. The KerrMcGee Bell Tower- a few years ago, several of us on this board, sent many CEO's letters about a similar idea, only on a larger scale. Luke Corbett scaled down our idea to make it more affordable for one corp. to tackle. It will now be a focal point on the river and from I-35.

3. Airport.....I know the airport trust has heard it from us numerous times. They're making some progress and I know they've heard our cries.

4. The North Canadian River was renamed the Oklahoma River. That idea was first mentioned on one of the city forums we were on.

5. MAPS for Kids......Well, we can't claim credit for all of this, but many of us on this forum really pushed on other forums, emails to our council, letters to our council, personal calls to our council, etc. to make education be the priority of MAPS II. We proposed that many moons ago. I guess someone listened.

6. Finance the Skirvin with the help of city assistance. We mentioned this numerous times, I submitted a press release to The Oklahoman about it.....we also mentioned it as our beyound MAPS project. Sure, it probably happened as a coincidence, but I know city leaders saw our plans.

7. Talk of light rail. Thanks to many of us on OKC City Hall Talkback several years ago, we started a group whose primary focus was on lobbying city hall for rail transit. Our president lobbied his heart out at city hall council meetings, only to get the cold shoulder from Humphries. Obviously, someone has heard our cry, because Burns Hargis and company have been discussing it.

8. We really started pushing the need for a revamping of our state fair grounds to attract ore horseshows. We proposed these improvements years ago. When Skip Wagner came to town, I really pushed him hard about the need to improve our fair grounds. Others on this forum did the same, through their numerous contacts with Skip. He did listen, as he emailed me back saying we had great ideas, and he'd mention them to the Fair Board. We proposed them as a MAPS II Project. Obviously, that didn't happen, but they found financing in another way.

I'm sure there's more....I just can't think of any more right now.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Now what is this city hall talkback forum?

Nonetheless, I want to comment that I am surprised Marriott isn't persuing charges on us like Academy is for Bass Pro. Same deal.

[Midtowner]

Now what is this city hall talkback forum?

Nonetheless, I want to comment that I am surprised Marriott isn't persuing charges on us like Academy is for Bass Pro. Same deal.

There is room in the hotel industry. The Marriot really won't compete with the Skirvin. It's sort of a niche hotel.

On the other hand, Bass Pro put a lot of independent guys out of business and severely damaged Acadamy's business. Apples and oranges there.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

B/c Bass Pro is practically the Skirvin of the great outdoors. It's not their problem they are in a competitive field.

[Midtowner]

B/c Bass Pro is practically the Skirvin of the great outdoors. It's not their problem they are in a competitive field.

Actually, I've investigated the ways that they were funded. The Skirvin money came from funds that were legal. The Bass Pro money came from taxes that had been passed by public votes for other specific purposes -- hence the violation of Article 10, Section 19 of the State Constitution.

If hotel companies in town are mad because they think the Skirvin will put them out of business (Bass Pro put several local businesses out of business), I really don't think they have a leg to stand on.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Many of them don't... our health care infrustructure is in serious disarray, albeit Baptist, St. Anthony and OU.

And, from what I know the Bass Pro was actually funded like this: We built their building for them, now we get to lease it out to them. We own it, we own them (they are binded), and they can't abandon like Academy and Wal Mart do. We get every cent back, and we get assured they will stay.

[mranderson]

I had been urging OKCTalkers to lobby to name a street or something after the late Keith Leftwich.

Keith got his start while a broker for Anderson-Bryant, my families company. I got to know Keith both as a person and a politician. Although Democrat, he usually leaned the other way. My dad even thought he was a great politician... And my dad is a devout Republican!

Keith Leftwich was the first State Senator in district 44 to die in office. Keith had Cancer.

When this occured, and with the major strides he made for the Southside I felt it was only proper a street or freeway was named in memory of Keith. I wanted Pennsylvania renamed from Reno South. However, my second choice was approved.

I-240 from I-35 to I-44 is now known as the Keth Leftwich Memorial Loop.

[Midtowner]

Many of them don't... our health care infrustructure is in serious disarray, albeit Baptist, St. Anthony and OU.

And, from what I know the Bass Pro was actually funded like this: We built their building for them, now we get to lease it out to them. We own it, we own them (they are binded), and they can't abandon like Academy and Wal Mart do. We get every cent back, and we get assured they will stay.

One of the crown jewels of the MAPS program is the Bricktown Entertainment Center, a retail and entertainment complex being built along an artificial canal. Bricktown’s anchor tenant is Bass Pro Shops, a Missouri-based sporting goods retailer. To get Bass Pro into Oklahoma City, local officials gave the company more than $17 million in subsidies using public funds. Under a 15-year lease, Bass Pro will pay the city approximately $6 per square foot per year for 110,000 square feet of retail space. Oklahoma City may not be New York or San Francisco, but that’s a below market rate by any standard.

The $17 million comes from three city tax funds—the MAPS operation and maintenance fund, a fund used to finance capital improvements for the city’s schools, and a third fund used to finance equipment for public safety agencies. City officials say the sales taxes generated by Bass Pro over the 15 years of the lease will cover this $17 million “loan”. But this claim covers up a key fact: most of Bass Pro’s sales will come from existing businesses forced to compete with the government-sponsored retailer. Oklahoma City’s own analyst said that 41% of Bass Pro’s expected sales will be “transfers,” meaning they’ll come at the expense of the city’s 65 existing sporting goods retailers (and that doesn’t include large discount stores like Wal-Mart). Thus, Oklahoma City residents and businesses are forcing a transfer of wealth from local merchants to a larger national merchant; what they’re not doing is promoting “economic development” or growing the economy in any substantial manner.

What’s especially galling here is that Oklahoma City officials could have supported a Bricktown development that would have used no taxpayer funds whatsoever. During the bidding process for Bricktown’s development rights, local businessman Moshe Tal submitted a proposal for a privately financed Bricktown Entertainment Center. The city rejected his offer, instead awarding the contract to developer Randy Hogan. Hogan then turned around and demanded the $17 million in taxpayer funds to get Bass Pro into his development.

Tal says Hogan got the contract because of political connections to local officials, including Oklahoma City Mayor Kirk Humphreys, who allegedly owned real estate holdings once managed by Hogan. Tal accuses dozens of city officials of “self-dealing” with one another to promote Hogan’s development—and the Bass Pro subsidy—to the detriment of the taxpayers

http://www.moraldefense.com/initium/09-15-03.htm

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

I really couldn't care less about the poor ma and pa shops that will DIE. And I firmly believe that any retail that we can cram in OKC at the expense of Waldemort is for the best.

Anyway, so you are saying that Moshe Tal would have built another anchor, maybe not a Bass Pro, but still an anchor, and it would have costed us ZIP? And then, what is most fascinating is that Broken Arrow probably got theirs for free when Bass Pro became interested in Oklahoma. But, with that news I can tell that Bass Pro would have come in later. I still think it is a boon, to say that we have just as many Bass Pro's as Dallas and Houston. There are people on other forums (you know the one) that keep bringing up the fact that Oklahoma has no Cheesecake Factory, but the surrounding states do. That is b/c our population can't support it, not that we our impoverished. If Cheesecake Factory thinks we are impoverished maybe we need to have a word w/ them and kick soem sense into them.

[Midtowner]

I really couldn't care less about the poor ma and pa shops that will DIE. And I firmly believe that any retail that we can cram in OKC at the expense of Waldemort is for the best.

Anyway, so you are saying that Moshe Tal would have built another anchor, maybe not a Bass Pro, but still an anchor, and it would have costed us ZIP? And then, what is most fascinating is that Broken Arrow probably got theirs for free when Bass Pro became interested in Oklahoma. But, with that news I can tell that Bass Pro would have come in later. I still think it is a boon, to say that we have just as many Bass Pro's as Dallas and Houston. There are people on other forums (you know the one) that keep bringing up the fact that Oklahoma has no Cheesecake Factory, but the surrounding states do. That is b/c our population can't support it, not that we our impoverished. If Cheesecake Factory thinks we are impoverished maybe we need to have a word w/ them and kick soem sense into them.

I never said it was a bad thing. It was just done in a bad and corrupt manner. Something that I think should rightfully end Humphrey's political career.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

No. What would end Kirk the Smirk (the Gazette's name for him) is his lack of understanding on how cities grow. I believe the Gazette once wrote (the only sensible commentary I have seen from them) that we throw him into a big van and drive him to the outskirts of town for him to take in what he sees.

[Patrick]

Anyway, so you are saying that Moshe Tal would have built another anchor, maybe not a Bass Pro, but still an anchor, and it would have costed us ZIP?

Moshe Tal's original plans:

1. A major upscale Galleria mall around the canal larger than Crossroads and Penn Square combined (would've never made it in our market)

2. Hard Rock Cafe (wouldn't have happened...Hard Rock isn't expanding in the US)

3. ESPN Zone (might have been possible)

4. A craft mall

5. International Gymnatics Hall of fame

6. a Marriot Rivercenter Hotel connected to the mall

7. An office tower

8. A Country Music Complex

****Problem is Moshe always claimed to have foreign investors backing him, but when asked to prove it, he never could. Had we been dealing with developer David Cordish (supposedly with Moshe) alone, it might have been a different story. I think the city should've given Moshe more time to bring Cordish to the table. Unfortunately, the good ole boy tactics took hold and they rushed Hogan to the front table.

And then, what is most fascinating is that Broken Arrow probably got theirs for free when Bass Pro became interested in Oklahoma.

Nope, Broken Arrow is financing theirs just like Oklahoma City is. Broken Arrow owns the land and the building. They payed for it through bonds.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

So... a guy who never had the money to begin with is pressing charges on the city for not picking him, and avidly supporting Hogan w/ the cash he needed... OH, NOW I GET IT! Well, I think a few years ago a Galleria for OKC wouldn't have been a very good idea, given that we hadn't really proven ourself by then. With the passage of a year, it would seam like Tal was thinking in the future, but we had no way of seeing it. I sure wish he had actually been given the go ahead on hs Galleria though, but it would probably have only been scaled down to the size of Northpark Mall, and just the same thing. Plus, that really isn't the best location for it, I can see a single big box fitting in well there however. Maybe if he had the same plans for a little bit west of that location, right up along the Broadway onramp, it would have been approved.

[Patrick]

His ideas were great! In fact, Urban Renewal called them too ambitious. At the time, they were probably right in their thinking.

I would've liked to have heard more from David Cordish, the prominent developer Tal was bringing on to join him in the Bricktown 2000 venture. He's a prominent developer who has turned numerous historic areas into entertainment districts. He's from Baltimore, and his claim to fame is the Power Plant Development, among other projects in Baltimore. He might've ben able to get a Hard Rock to locate here, as he does have a partnership with them.

Still, Tal never really indicated who his foreign investors were. So, you could say the city erred on the side of caution.

Hogan and Humphries were good buddies in the real estate market, so I strongly think that played a factor as well. Also, Fred Jones Hall, commissioner for Urban Reneewal is a partner with Hogan on East Wharf. He refrained from voting on the selection of Hogan, but I bet he had an influence.

Conflicts of interest are hard to prove though.

[downtownguy]

My wife and I spent a lot of time discussing all this way back when. The questions comes back to this: if you look at how many lawsuits Moshe Tal filed (not just in regard to Bricktown), would you really want to be his business partner? If not, then why should the city have entertained him as a developer? He had no money, no experience, and a very vague tie to David Cordish.

[BricktownGuy]

I think downtownguy brings out a good point about how many lawsuits Moshe Tal filed. I know I wouldn't want someone like that as a business partner.

[okcpulse]

Moshe Tal had indeed presented good and exciting proposals to the city. However, his connections to David Cordish remained only that... connections. Oklahoma City got hit too hard with the late 1980's oil bust to just start putting money on words. If David Cordish was truly interested in forking over cash in Oklahoma City developments he would have had serious talks with city leaders.

Oklahoma City gave numerous extensions to the developer of the downtown Galleria, and even put the infrastructure in place. However, after three years of empty promises that work would start, downtown was left empty-handed in 1985. Penn Square Mall, however, opened in 1988. Although not downtown, Penn Square is not too far away.

[Midtowner]

My wife and I spent a lot of time discussing all this way back when. The questions comes back to this: if you look at how many lawsuits Moshe Tal filed (not just in regard to Bricktown), would you really want to be his business partner? If not, then why should the city have entertained him as a developer? He had no money, no experience, and a very vague tie to David Cordish.

Filing lawsuits is not necessarily the mark of a dishonorable person. Heck, in this case, it was the act of someone who feels he got royally hosed.

[downtownguy]

Do a check on Moshe Tal at www.oscn.net. You will find that this man has sued dozens of city and business leaders, his own neighbors, former business partners, judges who didn't rule his way, and even his own former laywers. This is just fact.

[Midtowner]

My second cousin presided over at least one of those cases. I'll have to ask her about it sometime.

Looks like Tal v. Humphries et al has been proceding in Tal's favor actually... In fact, the latest happening was that Judge Robertson removed herself from the case. Having dealt with several "high rollers", especially property investors, this kind of history with our court system is not something that is really unheard of, or even uncommon.

I don't know the guy, so I'm not going to defend him and his personal credibility or whatever. As far as how the deal went down, I don't think anyone could really defend the way that Humphries and company proceded either. The bottom line is that there were probably some pretty viable options out there that involved the taxpayers not getting screwed. Unfortunately, it appears that none of Humphries' supporters would have benefitted, so we get to pay for Bass Pro.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Maybe he should be listening to Bill Handel On The Law...

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

^ Firefox... sorry.

I could definately, and still defend Humphreys. He wasn't "judgmental" he was being cautious and protective of our city's valuable land, and not just giving it away to some twit w/ millions of bogus dollars.

[Moondog]

Does anyone know what's being built on the canal just east of the Theatre? Noticed a building going up while there for lunch today. The building looks like it will be small, just one level. Anyone know?

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

I don't think it will be one story. Is that the high rise, possibly? The Factory maybe?