Why stay in Oklahoma?

[C_M_25]

I'm a born-and-bred Oklahoman. As is my wife. All my family is from here as well, and I've never lived out of the state. My demographic is upper-middle class, less than 40 years old, and I have a growing family with two small kids. I have never had any aspirations to leave this state; however, with age, experience, and changing priorities, I find myself asking: Why stay in Oklahoma??

Politics (I'll keep it brief here as I don't want this to turn into a political thread): The politics in our state are a joke. Honestly, most of our problems start here. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. We are starting the legislative session for 2018; yet, we are starting a concurrent legislative session for 2017. Seriously?? We are broke. We have no plan for the future. Kids are pawns to gain political advantage rather than the focus for improving our future. Etc Etc

Lack of Industrial diversity: The oil and gas industry is strong here. If you are working in the industry, you are doing very well. We also have Tinker, which is huge. Other than that, it seems like everything else is small potatoes. We tried to bring in Amazon, but it was almost a cruel joke comparing our state/cities with the others on the list. What future does this state have when the oil/gas industry disappear in the next generation or so?

Flailing Infrastructure: Our roads are a joke. Public transportation is very limited. It seems like our strategy for improving our roads is non-existent. Just keep patching the old patches and kick the can down the road.

Schools: Our school systems are failing. My wife was teacher, and her pay was abysmal with long hours. Luckily her boss was very nice and supportive. Unfortunately, few of the parents were supportive. She worked in a booming school district; yet, she had the bare minimum in the classroom. Our state currently has no budget for 2018, so all the extra curricular activities (after school events, math/science clubs, etc) are on the chopping block. Unless it is football related, it is likely to be cut. It doesn't help we are losing teachers like crazy to nearby states. How can anybody be excited to move their family here? How can anybody be excited to stay here?

I can go on-and-on. Our state has so much potential. We have beautiful landscapes across the state. We have a wonderful distribution of natural resources. There are so many intelligent kids that may never get a voice because they will not get the support they need growing up. It is painfully clear that our legislature is like putty. Bring in enough money and jobs, and you can get them to do whatever you want. We still struggle to draw large businesses though. The really sad part is that people like me, who would have never ever considered moving from this amazing place, are starting to wonder whether to stick around. Changing priorities tend to do that. Looking around, there are so many more opportunities in all directions next door. I'm not saying that I'm going to move, but I worry about the future of our state unless we can make changes soon.

[bradh]

Our situation was a bit different, as we had no family in OKC, but when a local "booming" district straight up told us if they were us they'd move, we left and didn't look back. Our move was strictly education related. We would have stayed if that piece worked for us.

[dankrutka]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

[SOONER8693]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

You get a standing ovation from me for that post Dan.

[C_M_25]

I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas since 2011 and really the only issue mentioned in the original post that I have found to be significantly worse in Oklahoma is education funding. You notice an immediate and significant commitment to education in every surrounding state that does not exist in Oklahoma. It's a huge issue that will negatively impact citizens, workforce preparation, corporation and employee recruitment, etc.

However, I promise you that there is a huge amount of political stupidity in other states. Oklahomans tend to look at their own problems, particularly politics, and think they don't exist elsewhere. That's just incorrect aside from the education issue.

I think Oklahoma's lack of economic diversity is well overblown (as Pete has pointed out in other threads) and is just repeated without a lot of evidence. Oklahoma's economy is more diverse than most people think... but also, I'm curious how that affects you. I know I'd like Oklahoma to have economic diversity and resiliency, but it also wasn't a big issue for me as long as I had a job I liked.

Anyway, my point is that aside from education, Oklahoma is more similar to surrounding states than it is different from them. Each state has its own problems and shortcomings that you're likely unfamiliar with because you don't live there and hear about them.

I guess a good reason to stay is to make Oklahoma better. There are a lot of good people in Oklahoma doing good things. Also, there's more food, retail, and entertainment options in OKC than there ever has been as OKC really has gone through a renaissance in the last 20 years. I return to the state regularly because there's so much I still enjoy visiting. Why stay? There's still a lot of good things happening and you can make a difference.

I think that is all well said, and I don't disagree with any of it. I'm sure most states have their issues politically.

The diversity thing doesn't affect me directly; however, I know the ups-and-downs of commodities, and this state runs into huge problems when oil/gas crashes. Industrial diversity would help buoy our state budgets by having other things that can provide tax revenue during down times in the oil industry. While we may be diverse across Oklahoma, we're still predominantly tied to the success of oklahoma's oil and gas. It would be nice to have another big-time company or two in the state (Amazon would have been nice but not realistic) to help balance us out a bit.

[dankrutka]

Here's how I'd rank the driving experience in the states I've lived:
1. Kansas: There's no traffic, even in Wichita. It's kind of unreal.
2. Oklahoma: Traffic is genearlly fine outside of a few bad spots at rush hour, but that's predictable.
3. Texas: The risk of being caught in awful traffic is so much higher than anywhere in OK or KS. I regularly will sit in standstill traffic at 10pm at night. I once sat on the highway for 20 straight minutes at 4am on my way to the airport and almost missed my flight. It deters you from even going places. It's often because DFW has grown so much that there's constantly construction to catch up with both the growth and the sprawl. When construction finishes in one place they just start the next place. In most areas, it never ends, but there are exceptions. And, while DFW has a variety of public transportation, most of it is not very useful as it's built around a suburban park-and-ride model (A-Train/DART Green Line) or it just takes too long to get places because of vast sprawl.

[mugofbeer]

You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

[C_M_25]

You overdo it a bit but I will agree with you on the state of politics and education. Until peoe stop electing far rightist, evangelical hristians. Mind you, I 100% support people's right to practice their religion as they want, but I do have a problem when the practice is brought to politics. Yes, there can be a basic overlap but when politicians refuse to allow tax revenues to provide decent public services then its clear change is needed. Yoj lament about some things, such as roads. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here. As someone wbo has lived in multiple other cities, in general, OMCs roads are pretty normal for a large city. They are certainly no worse than here in De ver. The highway system i OKC are superior. Traffic backups in OKC are nothing compared to most large cities.

I think our highway network is good. It is actually very well laid out. I also agree that congestion is non-existant and that is fine with me. I do enjoy the commute times. However, these aren't the problems I have with our infrastructure. It is mostly a maintenance/quality issue. I've driven in enough cities/states to see that we are drastically behind them in these regards.

[bradh]

Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

[dankrutka]

Dan, I agree with most of what you said, great post. OKC has so much accessible great food and entertainment. One question though, I know you're and educator and an advocate for better public schools, but do you have kids? Things change a lot when it's your blood's future on the line.

Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

[C_M_25]

Well, I made the point in my post that education is the one major problem in Oklahoma. I wouldn't blame any teacher, parents, or anyone else for leaving the state for that reason. Having said that, there are still a lot of incredible Oklahoma educators who are presisting through the lack of support. It's not like staying in Oklahoma will guarantee your children some kind of poor education. I can guide you to plenty of great schools and teachers. But, the longer Oklahoma takes to start funding education comparative to surrounding states, the worse things will get. It needs to get fixed.

This is probably my main reason for starting this. There are things wrong with our state. We all know that. The big question is, how long can we endure times like we are in now before we lose enough young talent/young families to really impact our state? What happens if Devon (one of our crown jewels) ever leaves or sells? There are a lot of "what if's" that could happen, and I know it's all very speculative. I just worry about my children's future growing up in a state that seems to be on a razor's edge. I want to live here long-term. I want this state to be one of the best in the country, but we will never move in that direction if we start losing our best talent.

[BG918]

One very big thing that Oklahoma has is a low cost of living. And I realize that is tied to the lack of a dynamic economy that drives up costs (supply and demand) in larger cities. But if you do have a higher paying job then you can live in a very nice house something you can’t do in many other places. You might be able to have a pool or country club/golf membership. And not sit in traffic for over an hour every day. And you have built-in babysitters for your kids (grandparents).That is a good reason to stay IMO. Just take vacations to larger cities and beaches/mountains.

[bradh]

Well I tried last summer but your PM inbox was full

[bradh]

I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

[dankrutka]

I will say this, if your kids need a special education plan (on either end of the spectrum), you won't get what you need in Oklahoma sadly.

Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

[bradh]

Why do you say this? These are IDEA federal guidelines that you can/should sue if they’re not met. Every Oklahoma school I have ever worked with has taken special-education seriously. On the other hand, the state of Texas is actually facing serious allegations of not providing special education services. Anyway, I’d appreciate a little more explanation. It’s really important to provide context especially when you seem to be implying that many special educators are not doing their job in the state. But, of course, I empathize and support your family and children if they did not receive the services they have a right to.

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

[dankrutka]

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

Messages are cleared out. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I am not an IDEA expert, but I've never heard of differences between applications in states. However, if you or others are not receiving services you should then I will reach out to experts in IDEA law to find out more.

[corwin1968]

Dan, clean out your private message inbox and I'll shoot you a message. I'm well aware of what IEP's are, but in Oklahoma they are only required on the lower end.

As a person who works in special education in Oklahoma, I would be interested in hearing your experiences, as well.

[bradh]

As a person who works in special education in Oklahoma, I would be interested in hearing your experiences, as well.

Sent, and to clear this up, I mixed up two different topics in my earlier post. Those families with kids who have special education needs are leaving the state because of medicare/health department issues, not the special education. That was my bad for mixing up the two.

[bchris02]

This is a good question.

I moved back to Oklahoma from Charlotte NC in 2012 and I didn't really want to. However, I was working in a dead-end job in Charlotte, the recession was dragging on, and the economy here was much better. The biggest reason is that my family was pressuring me to move back to this part of the country. While I lived in OKC as a child and a teenager, I had not lived here as an adult and had been away for 10 years so in many ways I was like a transplant in my (sort of) hometown. It was a rough adjustment initially, but not all of that was Oklahoma's fault (I was dealing with some serious personal issues around that time as well).

Why do I stay? Currently I have a decent job that I like, am close to family, and am not in a financial situation where I could leave without doing something very risky. If one of those three things were to change, I would probably leave. In the meantime I am comfortable here, especially since I moved downtown. OKC's entertainment options have improved many times over since I moved back here. While the roads are in very poor condition comparative to other places I've lived or spent significant time in, traffic flows much smoother here than in a big city. A lot of exciting things are on the horizon for OKC over the next few years as well, especially with the streetcar and the new convention center coming online. OKC in 2020 is going to look significantly different from 2018 with everything currently in the pipeline. While I really prefer larger cities (cities like Charlotte, Portland, Denver, and Kansas City are my ideal size), OKC offers a lot more than it used to.

If I was to leave it would be for the following reasons.

1) Politics - this has been covered enough and yes other states do have their nutty legislators, but Oklahoma is among the worst of the worst. I would prefer to live in a blue state or a more moderate red one. Oklahoma's education problem ties back to this larger issue. This state's legislature seems to only exist to serve two special interest groups; the oil & gas lobby and the fundamentalist churches. While Oklahoma's public education system is racing to the bottom, the legislature is concerned about things like "school choice" and freedom to homeschool without accountability. Also don't forget about the big deal that was made a couple of years ago about AP courses not being pro-America or pro-Christian enough.

2) Weather - In terms of my own preferences, I can't think of very many places in North America that have a worse climate than central Oklahoma. The best way to sum it up is I don't like the crazy extremes and really don't like the spring severe weather season, especially after 2013. While some places may have more extreme seasons such as Minnesota in the winter or Arizona in the summer, those places are very nice for a large portion of the year.

3) Too many bad memories/negative emotions associated with this place. Not going into specifics on this forum.

[MadMonk]

This is a good question.

I moved back to Oklahoma from Charlotte NC in 2012 and I didn't really want to. However, I was working in a dead-end job in Charlotte, the recession was dragging on, and the economy here was much better. The biggest reason is that my family was pressuring me to move back to this part of the country. While I lived in OKC as a child and a teenager, I had not lived here as an adult and had been away for 10 years so in many ways I was like a transplant in my (sort of) hometown. It was a rough adjustment initially, but not all of that was Oklahoma's fault (I was dealing with some serious personal issues around that time as well).

That's interesting. I spent many years in and around the Charlotte/Mecklenburg county area. I hated nearly everything about it, especially those awful humid summers. About the only redeeming factor was that you had both mountainous areas and beach areas all within a pretty reasonable driving distance. You have to drive a bit further in Oklahoma to get to those kind of places.

I've been back a few times since I left because I still have family there, but each visit reaffirms my determination to never live in that area again.

[bchris02]

That's interesting. I spent many years in and around the Charlotte/Mecklenburg county area. I hated nearly everything about it, especially those awful humid summers. About the only redeeming factor was that you had both mountainous areas and beach areas all within a pretty reasonable driving distance. You have to drive a bit further in Oklahoma to get to those kind of places.

I've been back a few times since I left because I still have family there, but each visit reaffirms my determination to never live in that area again.

Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

[stlokc]

Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

While it wouldn't be a reason for me to move or not move anywhere, you're not wrong about the "lushness" and "greenery" in Charlotte and in most places east of OKC. I've never understood why OKC neighborhoods and other districts don't insist on robust tree planting when they develop. It's not going to look like Charlotte overnight, but trees do grow in Central Oklahoma. I looked recently at an aerial photo of that area where they are building the Aloft south of Quail Springs Mall and I thought "If they had lined that boulevard (the one that circles around from Memorial to Penn) with trees when they built it in the 1980s, and maybe put them in the median as well, it would look so beautiful now and I would bet it would have developed long before now." Same thing with the bridge supports on the highways and even landscaping of shopping centers, etc. OKC doesn't have a lot of hills and the section line roads being ramrod-straight are awfully boring, but there are things that can be done to make the city look nicer.

[bchris02]

While it wouldn't be a reason for me to move or not move anywhere, you're not wrong about the "lushness" and "greenery" in Charlotte and in most places east of OKC. I've never understood why OKC neighborhoods and other districts don't insist on robust tree planting when they develop. It's not going to look like Charlotte overnight, but trees do grow in Central Oklahoma. I looked recently at an aerial photo of that area where they are building the Aloft south of Quail Springs Mall and I thought "If they had lined that boulevard (the one that circles around from Memorial to Penn) with trees when they built it in the 1980s, and maybe put them in the median as well, it would look so beautiful now and I would bet it would have developed long before now." Same thing with the bridge supports on the highways and even landscaping of shopping centers, etc. OKC doesn't have a lot of hills and the section line roads being ramrod-straight are awfully boring, but there are things that can be done to make the city look nicer.

I definitely agree. Take a trip down to Dallas or even Norman to get examples of things that the city could do to look nicer even in this climate. I think the first part of it is that landscaping/beautification is simply not something OKC does well (and never has in at least the post-urban renewal era). The second part of it is the type of trees they typically plant are faster growing softwoods which don't survive Oklahoma's ice storms and summer droughts. The 2007 ice storm in particular was especially devastating to central Oklahoma's tree canopy. The tall, mature trees in Heritage Hills are slow-growing post oaks and elms which are much more resilient.

[MadMonk]

Interesting that you disliked that area. I absolutely loved it out there and still miss it even though I haven't been back in almost six years now. I actually almost bought a house, not knowing that literally a year later I would be moving back to Oklahoma (something I told myself at the time that I would never do). I agree that the summers can be brutal (though I actually think the dry Oklahoma summers are worse) but the springs and falls are especially nice out there. I miss not really having to worry about tornadoes. I miss the greenery and general lushness of the region and the tree-lined streets. The only place in central Oklahoma that looks anything like it is the Heritage Hills neighborhood.

I guess we've had very different experiences in both places. I've never lived anywhere else in the state so maybe other areas have a different vibe/experience. To each their own.

You have a point about the greenery and trees, though that's being devastated by Kudzu in a lot of areas (its still green I suppose!). I haven't been back for about 8 years now, but even then it had changed so much since I was there a couple years before. Still, there are a lot of forested areas that are much better than you'll find in central Oklahoma, though NE OK can be pretty nice too. Even so, I prefer the "long/wide" landscape views you can get here vs in that area (unless you're on top of a mountain). The sunrises and sunsets can't be beat here. When I first came to OK, tornadoes terrified me. I guess I'm used to them now and they don't really bother me so much. I just stay as prepared as possible. Driving in Ch/Mk was the worst. Not just traffic, but finding stuff in the crazy, antebellum-era street layouts was frustrating. You get used to it like anything else I suppose, but it's so much better here for me. Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like people there were just obnoxious and annoying, even those I counted as friends. Rude, condescending, and downright asshole-ish people were in abundance and the few incredibly kind people I met didn't' make up for it to me. Hands down, there are no friendlier, kinder people (even to strangers) than in OK.

But if we're talking just visiting, I definitely love the outer banks and all along the coasts of both Carolinas. Just not during hurricane season.