Chisholm Creek

[G.Walker]

http://chisholmcreek.com
http://twitter.com/ChisholmCreek
http://facebook.com/ChisholmCreek

[G.Walker]

Just thought this deserved its own thread?

[traxx]

Like this title better than Retail Esplosion (said in my best Ricky Ricardo voice).

[Pete]

Yes, been meaning to start one.

I'll migrate over a lot of the content from other threads.

[zookeeper]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

[SoonerDave]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

How is the city serving as a bank? They're being asked for a one-time $3.5 million incentive package. Possibly, just possibly, the city realizes the potential long-term benefit of substantive recurring sales tax revenues, potential economic benefit to the tune of several million dollars in construction materials and labor, to say nothing of the value of potentially long-term employment in the staffing of the company...at essentially zero risk to the city...I'm not getting the bank analogy at all. It's not like they're holding a note or something.

Mind you, I'm not always crazy about incentives or the government getting too deep into the private sector, but if the due diligence reveals this to be a good investment for the city, why wouldn't we do it? I don't know nearly enough about the details of this particular incentive request to make much of a comment on it specifically one way or the other, but I have to believe both sides see merit in it or it wouldn't have been suggested.

[gopokes88]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

"next generation" Cabela's stores - which range between 80,000 and 100,000 square feet - topped $500 per square foot in sales in 2012, he said. Analysis: Cabela's building on gun sale gains by leveraging data | Reuters

80,000*$500=$40,000,000*8.75%=$3,500,000.

I think OKC will be just fine if they give up one years of sales tax receipts from this store. It's not like they're going to be here for the next 20-40 years or something.

[zookeeper]

I think OKC will be just fine if they give up one years of sales tax receipts from this store. It's not like they're going to be here for the next 20-40 years or something.

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

[jn1780]

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

Or called capitalism, As soon as you get all the other cities that want a Cabela's to join your cause, OKC will join your cause.

[SoonerDave]

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

zoo, you might be able to engage me in a discussion about the relative merits and downsides of these kinds of arrangements, but when you start tossing out the ad-hominem rhetoric of "corporate welfare" you just lose me, because your side holds the position of "absolutley never, absolutely wrong, absolutley immoral, never, never, never!!!", and I simply can't operate in that kind of vacuum. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and position, but just can't agree with you.

[gopokes88]

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

You know Seattle took that hard line stance with Clay Bennet about the Sonics....that worked well.

Incentives for companies is done on the far left as well. So don't you dare try to paint it as a conservative thing. It might be one of the few bipartisan things in the country. Tesla was supposed to manufacture all of it's cars in ABQ. California wasn't even in the running. They ponied up some major incentives/bribes/slush fund whatever you want to call it and stole it. Now California is fixing to do the exact same thing again with the Gigafactory.

Facts. They really suck when you make things political.

Tesla Motors backs out of NM deal - Albuquerque Business First

"The news follows by a week the California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority's program to encourage the manufacture of zero-emission vehicles, which will provide Tesla with $100 million in tax-free financing for manufacturing equipment. Tesla also will be eligible for at least $1 million in Employment Training Panel Workforce Development Funds through the program"

I can hear it now. Oh but that's green energy we should totally incentive that because it fits my world view.

[NWOKCGuy]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the name of the other thread?

[jn1780]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the name of the other thread?

That thread is really talking about the whole Memorial road corridor.

[jn1780]

Cabela is the anchor for the entire Chisholm Creek Development. The city will definitely approve the incenitive.

[Pete]

Keep in mind, the City has a dedicated fund exactly for this purpose: to bring in new businesses that will generate substantial revenue.

Cabela's is merely applying for money that has already been set aside.

[zookeeper]

Keep in mind, the City has a dedicated fund exactly for this purpose: to bring in new businesses that will generate substantial revenue.

Cabela's is merely applying for money that has already been set aside.

That used to be called a slush fund. Graft. The whole thing is ripe for corruption. "We'll come to your city IF....." Blackmail. But, it's done so often now we accept it.

[Rover]

That used to be called a slush fund. Graft. The whole thing is ripe for corruption. "We'll come to your city IF....." Blackmail. But, it's done so often now we accept it.

If you are being literal, you need to look up the definitions of slush fund and graft. Neither applies to this situation, nor does blackmail. Incentives are legitimate and used for many positive things.

[zookeeper]

If you are being literal, you need to look up the definitions of slush fund and graft. Neither applies to this situation, nor does blackmail. Incentives are legitimate and used for many positive things.

No, not in the absolute literal sense, no. But do you not see the open doors to corruption? A lot of what Huey Long did in Louisiana was legal, but he made sure damn near everything was a benefit to him and his cronies. Who you do/don't give incentives to can be determined through backroom deals and corruption. How much you give - who's to say some of that isn't skimmed off the top and given to the person who "made it happen?" So while it doesn't work like a slush fund in the literal sense, it certainly could in practice. I just don't think it's the purpose of municipal governments. The fact is, Cabela's doesn't need the $3.5 million dollars if they're doing as well as everyone says. But we'll never know if they'd come here without the kickback of taxes will we?

Appropriate thread to discuss Cabela's and the incentives package, complete with a new post from me. Damn him! Won't he just go away?
http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?...e=2#post794660

[Spartan]

It's amazing that the largest city in the state gives permits to gun ranges that serve alcohol and seems to reserve its biggest retail subsidies for businesses that sell hunting, fishing, and other outdoors gear.

I remember when we had ULI in town a few years ago and learned that getting a Saks or Nordstroms etc would require $10-20 million in subsidies. All of the urbanists and otherwise normal people who wanted those retailers on the boulevard let go of the idea because that's an insane amount of money when there are more pressing concerns. Well now we will have given out close to that much to "attract" (ie beat Tulsa by a few months) a Bass Pro and Cabela's.

Way to go us.

[Geographer]

We should probably build some sort of boulevard through here to handle the traffic...

[Spartan]

News9 states Memorial & Western is already congested, but is it?

[bchris02]

News9 states Memorial & Western is already congested, but is it?

I don't believe so. Memorial and Penn is pretty congested but Memorial and Western actually has pretty light traffic. There's not much there yet as of now. I do think they should build another road into Chisolm Creek though. The biggest problem is not traffic on Memorial, its the fact that on each side of the turnpike it's only one way.

[jn1780]

I don't believe so. Memorial and Penn is pretty congested but Memorial and Western actually has pretty light traffic. There's not much there yet as of now. I do think they should build another road into Chisolm Creek though. The biggest problem is not traffic on Memorial, its the fact that on each side of the turnpike it's only one way.

Where at? There already extending Highland Park Dr to Western and Pawnee Dr will also be extended to intersect with the new Highland Park Drive. So that's access from Western, Penn, and both sides of Memorial via use of the Pawnee bridge over the turnpike.

I guess its about time to finish the other side of the Texas turnaround at Penn.

[SoonerFP]

Traffic gets backed up getting off eastbound Kilpatrick onto Memorial before trying to turn left onto Western from about 5-6:30pm but it's not horrible most of the time.


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[DowntownMan]

I think this area would be perfectly fine if we have "Texas Turnarounds" at the interchanges and then if western, penn, and may had medians to keep people from turning left and stopping traffic in the lane except for at left turn lanes at the red lights or if we had a middle turn lane all the way down the road.

Maybe the city will consider doing some of this soon.