OKC Council rips "embarrasing" state legislature

[adaniel]

http://kfor.com/2012/04/18/okc-counc...-state-senate/

Thank you city council! Long overdue...I really hope some of the local governments start putting pressure on the mouth breathers at the state capitol.

[soonerguru]

What a flimsy piece by Channel 4. No surprise, there, of course. But it is heartening to see our city council begin to comment on the stupidity of our loony right-wing legislature.

[Of Sound Mind]

Our state legislature... and more specifically, our state legislators, are more than embarrassing... they are hurting our image when it comes to companies looking to Oklahoma for relocation or expansion.

With all the REAL challenges facing our state, I'm continually amazed at how much time is wasted on peripheral issues that shouldn't even be brought up or dealt with until the states REAL troubles are resolved — specifically fiscal/budget issues, subpar roads and bridges (and half-assed construction efforts and plans, like the 235/44 interchange), pitiful education system, etc. Instead, we're worrying about the pressing "personhood" issue (why is this so urgent) or fetuses being in food (is this really a problem right now?) or usurping local control of local issues (like mentioned above).

No wonder our legislature is the (very embarrassing) laughing stock of the country. All the good and positive PR that the Thunder brings to our city and state is so easily undone by the infantile antics of our state's "representatives."

[Larry OKC]

Oklahoma is not alone in embarrassing legislators (probably can find folks in every state that think theirs are the worst). Case in point, in a recent Gazette it was talking about Wyoming(?) was doing some sort of task force looking into the possibility of succession (wasn't that issue decided by a little thing called the Civil War?) and getting their own Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. An amendment was added to see abut purchasing their own aircraft carrier (never mind they are a land locked state). The amendment failed but it noted that 20+ legislators voted for it!

I will agree that one person shouldn't be allowed to kill any bill. Too many bills (both good and bad) are treated this way. Not even a committee should be allowed to kill it. Personally think that ideally all of the committees be abolished (the Oklahoman has reported numerous times that 90% of the committees NEVER even meet). If they want to keep the committee for whatever reason (its a power/prestige thing), then let them stand and let the committee make their recommendation to their colleagues if a bill should pass or fail and let the full Hose/Senate vote on it. The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

[GaryOKC6]

Oklahoma is not alone in embarrassing legislators (probably can find folks in every state that think theirs are the worst). Case in point, in a recent Gazette it was talking about Wyoming(?) was doing some sort of task force looking into the possibility of succession (wasn't that issue decided by a little thing called the Civil War?) and getting their own Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. An amendment was added to see abut purchasing their own aircraft carrier (never mind they are a land locked state). The amendment failed but it noted that 20+ legislators voted for it!

I will agree that one person shouldn't be allowed to kill any bill. Too many bills (both good and bad) are treated this way. Not even a committee should be allowed to kill it. Personally think that ideally all of the committees be abolished (the Oklahoman has reported numerous times that 90% of the committees NEVER even meet). If they want to keep the committee for whatever reason (its a power/prestige thing), then let them stand and let the committee make their recommendation to their colleagues if a bill should pass or fail and let the full Hose/Senate vote on it. The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

You are correct that it is not only an Oklahoma thing. I would also add that it is not a "Right" or "Left" wing issue either. A famous left wing politician Gene Stipe killed every workers compensation reform bill that came his way at the committee level for the 50 years that he was in the state senate. That ended up eventually making Oklahoma the 4th highest cost state for workers comp. It ran off manufacturers and other high risk companies, most went to Texas. He was part of the good old boy system that built things the way they are today. The shady part of the whole thing is that Mr. Stipe owned the largest workers comp law firm in the state. Conflict of interest perhaps? It continues today on both sides of the aisle.

[kevinpate]

...The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

Not entirely correct, but mostly so.

The flip side is, think about it a bit first. Quite a few oddities make it to the floor as it is, and that's with active committee culling. The law of unintended consequences definitely arises if every piece of hair brain fluff guff has an equal shot at full chamber consideration.

in my opinion, long live the committee system! Lots of bad stuff dies there, as it should. And sadly, politics being politics, some good passes away prematurely as well. Some of that gets a Lazarus treatment though (as does some odd stuff from time to time.)

Now, if you wanna propose an up/down vote on every bill assigned in a committee, I don't mind that but they'll be busy busy bus unless someone turns back the file as many as ya want spigot a notch or two.

All in all, the system is both terrible, and better than most any other process available.

[GaryOKC6]

Not entirely correct, but mostly so.

The flip side is, think about it a bit first. Quite a few oddities make it to the floor as it is, and that's with active committee culling. The law of unintended consequences definitely arises if every piece of hair brain fluff guff has an equal shot at full chamber consideration.

in my opinion, long live the committee system! Lots of bad stuff dies there, as it should. And sadly, politics being politics, some good passes away prematurely as well. Some of that gets a Lazarus treatment though (as does some odd stuff from time to time.)

Now, if you wanna propose an up/down vote on every bill assigned in a committee, I don't mind that but they'll be busy busy bus unless someone turns back the file as many as ya want spigot a notch or two.

All in all, the system is both terrible, and better than most any other process available.

Agreed. You make a good point.

[Larry OKC]

Not entirely correct, but mostly so. ...

I worked for the company that printed the bills for the House and that is exactly how it works, if the committee doesn't recommend it (either as written or with a Committee Substitute etc), it doesn't leave the committee and is killed. We actually had a bill forwarded to us for printing and the committee recommendation was "Do not pass". We noticed it and called them to see if there was a typo (should have said "Do pass"?) or not. There was no typo and it should have never made it to us. The bill was dead.

A LOT of bills (usually over 1,000) do get filed every year but the vast majority are funding/appropriations. These "shell" bills (where the amount of the appropriation is left blank) are filed in double, triple and sometimes even more times with the ONLY difference being the bill number. Not usually numbered sequentially (101, 102, 103) but often skipping numbers (101, 103, 105 or 101, 121, 141). Often wondered the point of the exact extra bills because if they defeated it one time, why would they suddenly be in favor of it just because the bill number changed? The odd thing about it is even though they have gone to the unconstitutional "logrolling" of or omnibus appropriations bill a few years ago, they continue to file these separate bills. If they eliminated all of the duplication, it would be much more manageable.

The House and Senate both have limitations in the number of bills a member can file (think it is currently 8), some members (like Appropriations Chair) are exempt from that rule and the rules can be suspended. IIRC, the Senate has a similar limit.


Then there is the time management element. I tracked it for a couple of years and they only work 4 months a year (Feb thru May). The typical work week is Monday thru Thursday. They rarely meet before Noon on Monday and adjourn before Noon on Thursday (effectively making it a 3 day work week). Even when they do work late during the "deadline weeks", they are required to adjourn before midnight. The State Supreme Court has also ruled that the Legislature can define what constitutes a "legislative day" (does not have to coincide with the calendar in any way). That is why sometimes when they have to have a "Special Session", it can happen the same calendar day as a regular session day (Reg in the morning, adjourn and then reconvene in the afternoon for the Special Session). Anyway, I got off point a bit there but about a 1/3rd of the time they meet for 20 minutes or less! Rarely are they in session for a full 8 hours. Some legislators claim that it doesn't count the rest of the time when they are meeting with constituents and committee meetings. For those that do meet with the voters, more power to them. But for those that claim the committee time, it largely doesn't exist as the Oklahoman has reported numerous times that 90% of the committees NEVER meet. Sometimes the committee consist of just the chairman and in many cases they just get on the phone and do the "I'll vote for your bill, if you vote for mine" stuff.

I agree completely that the "system is both terrible, and better " but there are areas were it could be greatly improved.

[Midtowner]

Abolish the committee system? So you just want to have lobbyists write all the bills then? (instead of just most of 'em?)

[Larry OKC]

Isn't that what is happening now? If it worked the way it is supposed to, we could keep it but when it doesn't function correctly you either fix it or get rid of it. I think if a legislator puts his name as the "author" of a bill, he needs to at the very least actually read the bill and preferably actually written the bill. If someone else writes the bil, then they shouldn't be listed as its "author" but rather its "sponsor" or something similar. Every session some bill passes and then something comes out and they claim they didn't know this-or-that was in the bill. i also think that no legislator should be allowed to vote on a bill unless they have read the bill. The average person gets the idea that they do but they don't. That impression is reinforced by the Daily Journal's of each body (where they falsely state that the bill was read aloud (think the term is "read at length") when that can't possibly be the case. Maybe the title of the bill was read out loud but in very few instances is the complete body of the bill read out loud. Some bills are hundreds of pages long and they aren't even available in their final form until shortly before action is taken on them (even though there are 'rules" requiring advance publication, the rules are often suspended or ignored). Then there are cases where the title of the bill is the exact opposite of what the bill contains/will do or may not even have anything to do with what the title says. Then there are committee substitutes that strip the entire language of a bill and replace it with their version. All to often committee votes come down to a vote for my bill, I'll vote for yours type of thing and they are just going by what someone else has told them the bill is about. We supposedly have representative democracy, and if only a select few legislators are even on the committee, that means only those people that are their constituents have any representation. When it comes down to a chairman of a committee deciding the fate of a bill, that increases the disenfranchisement even further (or is it farther?)

[bluedogok]

I still think EVERY bill should be voted on by the full legislature, on the record and no attachments or riders, every bill should pass/fail on its own merits. Then maybe they couldn't pass thousands of bills/resolutions every session.

[Midtowner]

I still think EVERY bill should be voted on by the full legislature, on the record and no attachments or riders, every bill should pass/fail on its own merits. Then maybe they couldn't pass thousands of bills/resolutions every session.

And folks who don't know how the Oklahoma legislature works shouldn't make recommendations like this. Attachments? Riders?

We have a single subject rule here folks. Read the Oklahoma Constitution. I know it's unpopular, even among legislators, but an attachment or rider (whatever that is) that isn't germane is going to render the entire piece of legislation null and void.

And "thousands" of bills every session? Not even close. Sorry to pick on you, but your ignorance of state politics is pretty typical. As Sid said, if we all just paid attention to what was going on in the capitol and voted for the best candidate instead of the (D) or (R), then we'd be in a much better place.

[Wambo36]

And folks who don't know how the Oklahoma legislature works shouldn't make recommendations like this. Attachments? Riders?

We have a single subject rule here folks. Read the Oklahoma Constitution. I know it's unpopular, even among legislators, but an attachment or rider (whatever that is) that isn't germane is going to render the entire piece of legislation null and void.

And "thousands" of bills every session? Not even close. Sorry to pick on you, but your ignorance of state politics is pretty typical. As Sid said, if we all just paid attention to what was going on in the capitol and voted for the best candidate instead of the (D) or (R), then we'd be in a much better place.

The bolded part of your statement reflects what I personally believe to be the biggest problem with our political situation today. The straight party option on ballots should be removed so that people actually have to do a little research and know something about the people they are voting for. Too many people mark the R or D straight party box without having any idea about who they just voted for. This type of lazy voting is what gets us some of the idiots we have running the state today. I, like a lot of voters, find myself not identifying with either party anymore. They both seem to cater to the zealots on their respective fringes and I refuse to be a part of that.

[bluedogok]

I have been out of Oklahoma for 10 years but what goes on there seems to get worse every year. In my statement I was talking more along the lines of the federal system. I know that in Oklahoma you can just kill them in committee instead of attaching something to something unrelated to kill it like what happens in DC, it still happens but as you stated, just with "related" bills. I saw it happen 25 years ago when I was more active in politics at the state level in Oklahoma, pretty much that exposure to politics soured me on the entire political process, local, state and federal. I just find them pretty much all corrupt now if they stay there any amount of time, if you aren't disgusted by what goes on then you are pretty much part of the problem. Voting new people in does absolutely nothing because either they get disgusted and leave or become assimilated, the bureaucracies are entrenched and are really the ones running things and help keep getting the crooks re-elected. Texas is just as bad if not worse, I haven't really looked at much at Colorado politics yet.

[Midtowner]

I have been out of Oklahoma for 10 years but what goes on there seems to get worse every year. In my statement I was talking more along the lines of the federal system. I know that in Oklahoma you can just kill them in committee instead of attaching something to something unrelated to kill it like what happens in DC, it still happens but as you stated, just with "related" bills. I saw it happen 25 years ago when I was more active in politics at the state level in Oklahoma, pretty much that exposure to politics soured me on the entire political process, local, state and federal. I just find them pretty much all corrupt now if they stay there any amount of time, if you aren't disgusted by what goes on then you are pretty much part of the problem. Voting new people in does absolutely nothing because either they get disgusted and leave or become assimilated, the bureaucracies are entrenched and are really the ones running things and help keep getting the crooks re-elected. Texas is just as bad if not worse, I haven't really looked at much at Colorado politics yet.

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

I retract my statement about your ignorance. I thought that since this was a thread about the Oklahoma legislature, you were commenting solely on that.

[Bunty]

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

Maybe term limits should be modified. Those who get term limited out can try reentering their office after being out of it for a term or two. I think if I was a legislator I would want to try having fun by taking money from lobbyists and doing the opposite of what they wanted.

[HewenttoJared]

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

Interesting. I don't follow local politics too closely, but isn't the killing of the personhood bill a good sigh along these lines?

[Doug Loudenback]

Interesting. I don't follow local politics too closely, but isn't the killing of the personhood bill a good sign along these lines?

It's a small step for Oklahomans, but a huge step for mankind.

[Larry OKC]

Interesting. I don't follow local politics too closely, but isn't the killing of the personhood bill a good sigh along these lines?

ironically, the Personhood bill was aborted?

[Bunty]

Do the matches or the arsonists start the fires?

The process is fine. We just need to stop voting for certain people. Sadly, it is really that simple.

Ha, I think it's too complex and offensive of an idea for the average Republican to vote for a Democrat to be rid of the Republican legislator who wanted a law to ban putting fetuses in food. I wonder if that Republican legislator had anyone file against him? It will be a bad reflection of the Oklahoma Republican Party, if no Republican challenged him.

[venture]

Do the matches or the arsonists start the fires?

The process is fine. We just need to stop voting for certain people. Sadly, it is really that simple.

Talking points and catch phrases are all it takes to the vote of the sheep out there. Congress has a 14% approve rating, but most will win re-election. The general American public is politically stupid. They vote according to a color chart (red or blue), what someone tells them, or because they can't see through the BS. Nothing we can do about it. It would be interesting though to see what happens if voting was required by law, giving everyone the first Tuesday in November time off as a holiday, but also giving people the chance to select "abstain" on a ballot (still required to submit one). Would we get the same results we do now?

Ah well. For now the mice will continue to follow the piper. Faith, Family and Freedom!

[Jersey Boss]

Talking points and catch phrases are all it takes to the vote of the sheep out there. Congress has a 14% approve rating, but most will win re-election. The general American public is politically stupid. They vote according to a color chart (red or blue), what someone tells them, or because they can't see through the BS. Nothing we can do about it. It would be interesting though to see what happens if voting was required by law, giving everyone the first Tuesday in November time off as a holiday, but also giving people the chance to select "abstain" on a ballot (still required to submit one). Would we get the same results we do now?

Ah well. For now the mice will continue to follow the piper. Faith, Family and Freedom!

Which begs the question, "Is an uninformed vote better or worse than a non vote?"

[NickFiggins]

We could just abolish the House and create a Unicameral legislature like they have in Nebraska, no more conference committees, no more passing the blame, and 101 less legislators. Think about all the true waste that could be cut, and how much easier it would be for citizens to follow the legislature.

[RadicalModerate]

A famous left wing politician Gene Stipe killed every workers compensation reform bill that came his way at the committee level for the 50 years that he was in the state senate . . . The shady part of the whole thing is that Mr. Stipe owned the largest workers comp law firm in the state. Conflict of interest perhaps?

I think it should be illegal for lawyers to be lawmakers . . . Or even lobbyists.

[BDK]

I think it should be illegal for lawyers to be lawmakers . . . Or even lobbyists.

That's ridiculous. We have such poorly drafted laws because we don't have enough lawyers in the legislature. Exploitative conduct comes from all types, being an attorney reflects nothing about character.