Plans may be in place to reduce the Fire dept by an additional 45 personnel

[Mikemarsh51]

On July 1st of this year the city eliminated 29 positions from the Fire dept. This caused the reduction of 1 Engine Company and 3 Brush Pumpers. Shortly after this happened the Fire administration ordered one of the Brush pumpers be manned with personnel from elsewhere. This was a trail balloon floated to see if it would be noticed. It was, and a grievance was filed and the project was stopped. In discussions with the Fire Chief, it was brought up that these formally manned rigs were now "tools" at the Fire station and could be used as the officer saw fit.

In 2008, the city funded 951 positions. 202 through the Public Safety sales tax and 749 through the general fund. This year the Fire dept. is funded this way, 200 through the PSST, 45 through a one year, temporary Maps3 Use tax and 677 through the general fund.

If you do the math you will see that there are 15 Brush Pumpers in service, multiply that by 3 shifts that equals 45 positions. When asked in a meeting if the 45 Temporary Maps 3 use tax
positions were in danger of being eliminated at the fiscal years end and those rigs being deemed as "tools", the Fire Chief would not deny that possibility.

If you support further reduction in your Fire services, do nothing. If you are concerned about the dangers of further reductions in Fire services, please contact your council member

[Larry OKC]

Isn't the MAPS 3 Use Tax "committed" for 2 years?

I know Cornett's plan was using it for 2 years which would hopefully get us past the low sales tax receipts (and for the past 5 months, sales tax revenues have been up, sometimes significantly). However, they were at a such low point to begin with, don't think we are close to being at the point where they were before the year long double digit declines. In Tuesday's Council meeting some still are urging caution (wisely so), noting that they still think the bump is due to the storms we had and replacement roofs etc.

[Mikemarsh51]

Patrick Ryan made It perfectly clear, even specifically asking the Mayor twice whether or not this was a one year deal. Ryan also reiterated that it was a one year only funding of those positions.

Sales tax revenues for this fiscal year are 4 million dollars higher than the similar time in 2008. You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

[kevinpate]

... You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

Raises a good discussion question, at least to me. As the GF is paying for 80 fewer positions, one might wonder if the gross amount of GF dollars for the FD has declined in your comparison periods, with those funds going to some other part of the city now. Or, one might wonder if, notwithstanding GF now covers 80 fewer positions in the FD, the expenses associated with the FD had risen at a level that there is still more GF going into the FD now than there was before.

Anyone know which scenario is closer to the mark?

[jdcf]

Adequate FD staffing and equipment are iimperative to the safety and well being of this city.

[OKCTalker]

Sales tax revenues for this fiscal year are 4 million dollars higher than the similar time in 2008. You do have to take into account that the general fund is paying for 80 less positions in addition to the revenues being up.

Mike - Weren't sales tax revenues DOWN in 2009, and aren't we digging ourselves out of that hole, especially in light of tenuous current/future revenue situations?

[jdcf]

If there are not personnel to operate the brush pumpers, for example, the city is in a precarious situation when it comes to fighting grass fires. I don't believe that the regular engine and ladder trucks can access as easily places like fields, areas between trees, etc. because of their weight, for one thing.

[Swake2]

If there are not personnel to operate the brush pumpers, for example, the city is in a precarious situation when it comes to fighting grass fires. I don't believe that the regular engine and ladder trucks can access as easily places like fields, areas between trees, etc. because of their weight, for one thing.

Why can't the same staff man both? What do the 45 firefighters that staff this equipment do the 6+ months plus a year where there are no grass fires? Is cross training for efficiency not possible?

[Samokc]

Firefighters are cross trained both! But say as the last week, a grass fire starts a house fire? Or while those men are off the engine and ladder on a grass fire an apt fire breaks out? Not at all unlikely! What about medical calls those don't stop during grass fires! And keep in mind not everyone lives in a neighborhood with concrete drives! Those brush pumpers are needed for medical calls as well as attacking rural house fire!

[Larry OKC]

Mike - Weren't sales tax revenues DOWN in 2009, and aren't we digging ourselves out of that hole, especially in light of tenuous current/future revenue situations?

True. But his point was collections are above 2008 levels (not 2009), presumably before the decline (at least the worst part).

As far as the 2 year thing I mentioned in a previous post...the 2 year guarantee/commitment of the MAPS 3 Use Tax (M3UT)/no cuts to fire/police, was for the then current fiscal year (before the vote and budget approval) and now. So the "only" for 1 year is technically correct. My problem isn't with that, but that they said no positions would be cut and in fact, positions were cut. Now they plan on cutting even more? There is nothing stopping them from using additional M3UT at a later date (but no commitment to do so).

[Swake2]

Is the staffing currently inadequate? What specifically has been the negative impact?

[Kerry]

We are going through similar discussion here in Jax where the City Council is trying to push through a 9% increase in property taxes, which as you can imagine, is going over like a lead ballon. This has prompted people to start taking a hard look at what the City spends money, and eliminating it. A few of things found so far is the city paying for an official city band, several hundred season tickets to the Jags, a multi-million contract to ensure the city is selecting enough minority owned business to contract with, paying for a community picnic for inner city kids and their families, funds the Jackonville Human Rights Commission to the tune of $1 million, $21 million to the Children's Commision, $10 million to a group called Jackosnville Journey, and the list goes on and on.

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

[jmarkross]

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

I wonder when folks will realize...Police and Fire come BEFORE parks, libraries, you name it-- and all the other things. Period, drop dead.

[Kerry]

Meanwhile, 15 firefighter were laid off and 23 were demoted. It is in times like this where we see the real priorities of elected officials.

I wonder when folks will realize...Police and Fire come BEFORE parks, libraries, you name it-- and all the other things. Period, drop dead.

You know this, I know this, Firefighters/Police know this... but for some reason politicans don't know this. I guess there are more votes to be had with parks, libraries, picnics, etc... Don't get me wrong though, hiring more firefighters for the sake of hiring more firefighters isn't a good idea either. Anyone know the Key Performance Indicators that are used to determine 'adequate resources'? The logic that says we have to have enough to staff all the trucks doesn't sound like a solid justification to me because the solutioon to that easy - just get rid of the extra fire trucks.

[Larry OKC]

You know this, I know this, Firefighters/Police know this... but for some reason politicans don't know this. I guess there are more votes to be had with parks, libraries, picnics, etc... Don't get me wrong though, hiring more firefighters for the sake of hiring more firefighters isn't a good idea either. Anyone know the Key Performance Indicators that are used to determine 'adequate resources'? The logic that says we have to have enough to staff all the trucks doesn't sound like a solid justification to me because the solutioon to that easy - just get rid of the extra fire trucks.

They did that too. According to the info on the flyer, they cut 29 Fire positions and 4 fire trucks from the budget. Don't know if those 4 include the truck that had already been MAPS for Kids Use Tax money ($4M, mol) had been earmarked and was instead diverted to pay for improvements to the Cox for the Barons hockey.

[Midtowner]

How will reducing fire staff by 45 personnel effect readiness?

[Swake2]

And what is the city staffing to be ready for? What kind/size of event? How often does an event that size happen historically.

[Midtowner]

And what is the city staffing to be ready for? What kind/size of event? How often does an event that size happen historically.

The fire department doesn't do much in the way of actually fighting fires. We spend an awful lot of money on them so that they can go to calls which our A++++ rated EMSA already goes to. If it were up to me, I'd probably get rid of a lot more fire fighters so that we could more adequately staff the police department.

[okcsmokeandfire]

The fire department doesn't do much in the way of actually fighting fires. We spend an awful lot of money on them so that they can go to calls which our A++++ rated EMSA already goes to. If it were up to me, I'd probably get rid of a lot more fire fighters so that we could more adequately staff the police department.

I dont know what fire dept that you are referring too Mid, but its sure not OKC fire. In my area of the city we have at least one structure fire per shift and many times we will have multiple structure fires per shift. Many of these fires are extinguished so fast that the news cameras dont have time to make the drive to see any fire. These fires are in addition to the 20+calls too car wrecks, automatic alarms, and medical calls (ob calls, shootings, stabbings, domestics, heart attacks, trouble breathing, etc.) that we make each and every shift.

Last shift for example, we had 27 calls, on the avg it takes about an hour to run a call, get to the call, perform the duties at the call, load patient, get back to the station from a call, restock equipment if needed, do the incident report on the computer at the station. 1 call avg is about 1 hour from time of receipt until incident report is completed, sometimes less sometimes longer depending on the severity of the call.

So last shift we have 27 calls, 2 on which were fire alarms which we are on scene longer for. So at the very minimum we had about 27 hours worth of work to do in 24 hours (a shift). The 2 fire alarms we were on scene at those for a total of 3 hours combined, doing things that we do saving life and property. So it should be apparent that there is not a whole lot of downtime. If there is downtime, it all changes when that bell goes off, we go from a ready mode to working hard mode.

OKC has a very well trained and aggressive fire firefighting department. Any other slant or depiction just aint true.

Now about this EMSA stuff. An A++++rating, lol, how can you have that kind of rating when many of your employees cant even lift the patient, much less their equipment to take into the scene. Im curious as to who is behind this rating and what their motive is. I can assure that is not in the best interest of the citizens of OKC. If it werent for the OKC fire dept, EMSA couldnt do their job very well, if at all. The only thing that EMSA does that OKC fire cannot is transport, but they couldnt be very effective in the transport business if it werent for OKC FIRE. By the way, EMSA has a turn over rate that is astronomical.

You guys on this forum wonder why the fire dept wont just let the city run over us and systematically eliminate us one by one.
The men and women on the OKC fire dept have pride and ownership in their jobs and in this city which we serve. We took an oath when we hired on this job to serve OKC and its citizens to the best of our abilities, even in face of adversity, even if the city leaders
are trying to ax positions, even if midtowner wants to get rid of firefighters, even if it cost us our lives, even if.......
Its obvious that city leaders or mid have never needed our help or been in a time of need where OKC fire dept members coupled with their speed and decisive action mean the difference between life or death. I think what you guys need to do is ask some of the recipients of the 80,000 plus calls we make each year and see what they have to say. I know it would be a much different picture getting painted on this forum.......

[Samokc]

Lol you either work for them or know nothing... I'd never trust my family in one of those ambulances on a serious call with out a FF paramedic! Keep cutting hope ur not one of those few fires you speak about!

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

Maybe/maybe not. I'm guessing that when you figure in pensions and benefits, the city might come out better with EMSA rather than increasing the number of firefighters and city owned ambulances. It'd be worth a study at the very least.

[Larry OKC]

Maybe/maybe not. I'm guessing that when you figure in pensions and benefits, the city might come out better with EMSA rather than increasing the number of firefighters and city owned ambulances. It'd be worth a study at the very least.

A study would definitely be in order. From what I understand, not sure if any additional fire personnel would be needed since they are responding to calls anyway and read somewhere that the City owns the ambulances anyway (so not sure why the number would necessarily increase).

In today's Oklahoman, it mentioned that our ambulance service got high marks. Do we really want to change it?

Am all for deleting duplication of effort (fire and EMSA both responding to the same calls), City/County duplication of services etc. Point is make sure you are getting rid of the right ones.

[Midtowner]

A study would definitely be in order. From what I understand, not sure if any additional fire personnel would be needed since they are responding to calls anyway and read somewhere that the City owns the ambulances anyway (so not sure why the number would necessarily increase).

In today's Oklahoman, it mentioned that our ambulance service got high marks. Do we really want to change it?

Am all for deleting duplication of effort (fire and EMSA both responding to the same calls), City/County duplication of services etc. Point is make sure you are getting rid of the right ones.

Exactly. I don't think anyone knows the answer here. Trouble is--with all of the heavily entrenched interests and politics involved, can a study be done which is divorced completely from the politics?

[Kerry]

Midtowner it makes alot of sense to have the Fire service take control of the mentioned ambulance service. Since the ambulance service is a for profit company and they do well on the profit part.

Hold on a second. The ambulance service is private, provides quality service, isn't laying anyone off, AND earns a profit while the fire department is public, provides quality service, IS laying people off, and is not making a profit; and your proposed solution is to get rid of private ambulance service and turn it over to the fire department. That does not compute. If anything, maybe the City should like at privatizing the fire department.

Huh - what do you know, some places are going to private fire service. OKC should really look into this.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/26/...nes-obamacare/

Our first-year contract was $300,000, and we were providing the same level of service the consultant said would cost $1 million,” Jensen said. “We continue to provide service as good as that of our municipal neighbors, but because we are private, we can operate more efficiently. We save 30 to 40 percent over what a similar municipal department would cost to operate.”
The savings come mainly in personnel. The fire district has 14 full-time firefighters and 28 paid-on-call firefighters, all of whom are privately employed. None is a union member.
“We don’t pay the insane salaries that our municipal neighbors pay,” Jensen said. “Our benefits are more in line with traditional industry. We are non-union, which gives us a lot more flexibility in dealing with our employees. Salaries and benefits are the big savings, but we [also] have a shop where we can rebuild and refurbish fire apparatus for our own use.
“We save money in purchasing almost anything a fire department would use, just by shopping around. We’re very cost-conscious. We watch every penny we spend,” Jensen added.