Poll: Oklahoma County residents not supportive of sales tax increase for new jail

[urbanity]

Oklahoma County residents not supportive of sales tax increase for new jail | OKG Scene.com

[rcjunkie]

Oklahoma County residents not supportive of sales tax increase for new jail | OKG Scene.com

Hopefully as the election nears they'll change their minds, the sales tax route will be much cheaper then having the Federal Government intervene and force the cost on property owners. If we go the sales tax route, everyone will share in the cost, including residents and visitors.

[kevinpate]

There are only so many revenue methods, and a jail is forthcoming, one way or another.

Given that, having 'none of the above' as a polling option seems downright silly.

[Wambo36]

There are only so many revenue methods, and a jail is forthcoming, one way or another.

Given that, having 'none of the above' as a polling option seems downright silly.

They need to re-run the poll without options 1 or 4. Option 1 is out because that would be in 7 1/2 years and I don't think the federal government is going to give us that long. Option 4 is just plain not an option. I would like to see some new poll results with the only two options we realistically have. As for selling bonds, I haven't heard that discussed. Would be interesting to hear.

[OKCTalker]

Remember that this was a SEPTEMBER poll, as the MAPS3 vote was starting to heat up. I suppose that bonds could be sold - anyone have a take on that option (interest rate, tax exempt possibility, county revenues to service the debt)?

[urbanity]

Remember that this was a SEPTEMBER poll, as the MAPS3 vote was starting to heat up.

That's correct, and this poll was also done before the official MAPS 3 proposal was announced.

[Spartan]

Maybe if the proposed jail wasn't 3 times the size of the state penn people would be more supportive of it. Just a thought.

[OKCTalker]

Serious question: Could we construct a substantially SMALLER facility to handle bookings and arraignments only, and then pay another state like Colorado to house these prisoners? I know we'd have to pay the "retail" rate to another state to house them, plus "shipping and handling" of prisoners to/from the facility (sorry - I'm getting a little punchy after Christmas), but would that be cheaper than spending a half-billion dollars on another huge facility?

[Bunty]

Serious question: Could we construct a substantially SMALLER facility to handle bookings and arraignments only, and then pay another state like Colorado to house these prisoners? I know we'd have to pay the "retail" rate to another state to house them, plus "shipping and handling" of prisoners to/from the facility (sorry - I'm getting a little punchy after Christmas), but would that be cheaper than spending a half-billion dollars on another huge facility?

Once again, stop arresting people over dope, especially marijuana and you'll have less need for more jail space.

[Spartan]

Serious question: Could we construct a substantially SMALLER facility to handle bookings and arraignments only, and then pay another state like Colorado to house these prisoners? I know we'd have to pay the "retail" rate to another state to house them, plus "shipping and handling" of prisoners to/from the facility (sorry - I'm getting a little punchy after Christmas), but would that be cheaper than spending a half-billion dollars on another huge facility?

Yes, we could do that too. But here's a better idea: Why don't the dip****s at the county stop holding onto inmates that need to be transported to the state penn or a federal penn in the first place?? Drew Edmondson has even filed a lawsuit against the county for doing this. And then the county says we're in a nightmare situation where we need to build another prison. I don't like to write childish posts, but there are some very childish and pissed off things I would have to say to anyone from the County that tells me we need this prison. It's a joke. The county shouldn't even exist in the first place. They probably don't need to be holding onto to half of the prisoners they're squatting on in the first place.

And then if you want to talk even more generally, how about this: This is a excellent case in point example of how we as a state need to stop locking up every single god damn non violent offended that comes through the system. It's getting ridiculous. We should be spending all of this money on schools, not jails. Bottom line.

I hope the county takes any NO vote on the prison and knows where to shove it when it's through with..

[hoya]

Serious question: Could we construct a substantially SMALLER facility to handle bookings and arraignments only, and then pay another state like Colorado to house these prisoners? I know we'd have to pay the "retail" rate to another state to house them, plus "shipping and handling" of prisoners to/from the facility (sorry - I'm getting a little punchy after Christmas), but would that be cheaper than spending a half-billion dollars on another huge facility?

No, we couldn't.

Guys, this is a county jail. That means, for the most part, the people who are in the jail are those who are awaiting trial. So we can't ship them off to Colorado, unless you want them to be transported back and forth for every court appearance. Some guy gets a DUI and you want to ship him to Colorado before he's even had a trial?

As far as guys who are waiting in county pending transport to a state prison, that's the fault of the Department of Corrections. They're overcrowded, they don't transport prisoners unless forced to. One of the judges here had to issue an order requiring DOC to move guys within 45 days. It's not that the county jail wants to keep them there. They notify DOC, and DOC just sits around not picking them up.

Very few people are actually serving out a sentence in the county. Most of them are awaiting trial.

[Spartan]

No, we couldn't.

Guys, this is a county jail. That means, for the most part, the people who are in the jail are those who are awaiting trial. So we can't ship them off to Colorado, unless you want them to be transported back and forth for every court appearance. Some guy gets a DUI and you want to ship him to Colorado before he's even had a trial?

As far as guys who are waiting in county pending transport to a state prison, that's the fault of the Department of Corrections. They're overcrowded, they don't transport prisoners unless forced to. One of the judges here had to issue an order requiring DOC to move guys within 45 days. It's not that the county jail wants to keep them there. They notify DOC, and DOC just sits around not picking them up.

Very few people are actually serving out a sentence in the county. Most of them are awaiting trial.

There are 3,000 people awaiting trial at any given time?

[OKCRT]

I just wonder how many citizens are arrested on a daily basis for unpaid traffic fines and small amounts of pot/weed/maryjane.

There really should be another avenue for these types of offenses. I bet if you took away all these people there wouldn't be a need for nearly as large of a jail. Maybe the city/county/state could seize their drivers license till a fine was paid? There has to be another type of punishment besides putting them in the clink and taxing the citizens.

[scootinger]

I just wonder how many citizens are arrested on a daily basis for unpaid traffic fines and small amounts of pot/weed/maryjane.

There really should be another avenue for these types of offenses. I bet if you took away all these people there wouldn't be a need for nearly as large of a jail. Maybe the city/county/state could seize their drivers license till a fine was paid? There has to be another type of punishment besides putting them in the clink and taxing the citizens.

I feel that the most sensible solution would be to 1) legalize marijuana (and possibly other 'soft' drugs), and 2) refocus efforts towards "hard" drug offenders on rehabilitation rather than punishment, and 3) focus on catching the people selling/distributing the "hard" drugs.

However, this is Oklahoma so it'll be practically the last place you ever see such reforms (especially #1). I think a good compromise for #1 (but not a complete solution) would be to decriminalize marijuana possession...example would be Nebraska's marijuana laws, where possession of ≤1oz of marijuana is a civil citation with a $300 fine. Sadly, so many people are misguided in how they see the problem of drug abuse/drug-related crime (and potential solutions), and politicians adopt a stance of being "TOUGH ON DRUGS" to get votes from such individuals.

[hoya]

There are 3,000 people awaiting trial at any given time?

Probably more than that. Those are just the ones who couldn't make bond.

Edit:

I actually happen to know quite a bit about the drug court in Oklahoma County, if anyone is curious. I have my own opinions on it. But overall I'll just say that it's disingenuous to try and make a distinction between "users" and "dealers". If you're into drugs heavily enough to get arrested for possession, you're probably dealing a little bit too. I mean, hardcore addicts aren't renowned for their ability to get and keep a job, and drugs are expensive.

[mugofbeer]

On the other hand, if a larger facility were to be built, WE could charge the retail rate to house prisoners from other states - thus helping to pay for the facility.

[OKCTalker]

It was originally the "city jail" when it was in the police headquarters across Shartel. The the new facility was originally called the "city-county" jail, and now simply "county." Permit me to fumble through a census-type of question:

What percentage of the inmates are behing held there on municipal, county, state or federal charges, and what percentage are serving out sentences after convictions at the municipal, state and federal levels?

[rcjunkie]

It was originally the "city jail" when it was in the police headquarters across Shartel. The the new facility was originally called the "city-county" jail, and now simply "county." Permit me to fumble through a census-type of question:

What percentage of the inmates are behing held there on municipal, county, state or federal charges, and what percentage are serving out sentences after convictions at the municipal, state and federal levels?

It was never "City / County" jail, it was built as the Oklahoma County Jail, the City decided that it would be cheaper to pay the county to house it's inmates there instead of building a new City jail.

[kevinpate]

A few years back a new jail was built in Grady County, but there were problems on not having money to operate it after it was built. Don't recall if that ever got resolved, or if that structure is mostly empty.

A shame if it is empty. Sounds like OK Co. could use the space and paying Grady would help them with that issue.

Oh well.

[Spartan]

Well the state with the lowest dept of corrections budget, Minnesota, also doesn't do jail sentences, period, for nonviolent offenders.. so there you have it. MN also has one of the nation's lowest crime rates. And for the most part, MN is definitely the example to follow when it comes to corrections.

[Bunty]

Well the state with the lowest dept of corrections budget, Minnesota, also doesn't do jail sentences, period, for nonviolent offenders.. so there you have it. MN also has one of the nation's lowest crime rates. And for the most part, MN is definitely the example to follow when it comes to corrections.

I doubt that many Oklahomans could get elected to state office advocating changing laws that would work to put fewer Oklahomans in prison, rather than more.

Maybe one good side effect to having a smaller state budget to work with for 2010 is that legislators will will pass fewer laws that would work to put more people in prison.

If we want a more free state, a less imprisoned one, then make it a goal to do away with two laws before making a new one.

[jbrown84]

I doubt that many Oklahomans could get elected to state office advocating changing laws that would work to put fewer Oklahomans in prison, rather than more.

I think we might be surprised how many Oklahomans support less jail time for non-violent offenders. It just doesn't make any sense.

[kevinpate]

I think we might be surprised how many Oklahomans support less jail time for non-violent offenders. It just doesn't make any sense.

FWIW, drug courts have grown dramatically since first kicking off. Sole purpose is to try to rehab folks instead of warehouse them, although the big stick remains while the carrot dangles.

Other changes have also been kicked in over the years, for youth and adult alike.

At the same time, more serious crimes have received more serious time requirements, e.g., 85% rule before parole eligibility.

There's no net surplus in beds, and we, most probably, still lock up way too many folks we're just ticked at instead of keeping the limited space for those we are afraid of.

Happens.

[Bunty]

FWIW, drug courts have grown dramatically since first kicking off. Sole purpose is to try to rehab folks instead of warehouse them, although the big stick remains while the carrot dangles.

But people who fail to pass drug courts are usually actual drug addicts and need real rehab and not simply what drug courts typically offer, which is anti drug propaganda to read and a series of drug tests. Of course, though, there's no shortage of Oklahomans who pretty strongly feel that drug addicts should be punished thru time in prison. After all, if you do the crime, you gotta do the time. And considering that one can without a doubt do up to life in prison for messing with drugs, it must be one of the most serious crimes you can possibly commit against society in Oklahoma.

[mugofbeer]

MN also elected a pro wrestler and a snot-nosed, hateful, disrespectful comedian to high political office. I'm not sure their example is one to follow.