The Great MAPS 3 Debate

[Doug Loudenback]

I've begun and will finish today (I hope) an article which presents the audio from the 11/12 and 11/13 press conferences, a few slides thrown in so you'll know who's talking, a summary of each conference's content, a fair amount of background information as relates to the city v. union posturing (which is what I see both sides as doing), a bit of analysis and (of course) my personal opinion. As this post is written, the audios and introductory stuff is up. The rest will shortly follow. I've thrown in a couple of cartoons ...



... and this one in front of Henry Overholser's prefab buildings way back in 1889.



... which gives you a clue about how I generally see the matter.

The article is here: Doug Dawgz Blog: The Great MAPS 3 Debate

[flintysooner]

I think it is a symbolic "fight to the death" and "take no prisoners" battle as the parties are waging it.

I happened to watch Cornett this morning on 4's Flash Point. He was still in full battle mode.

[betts]

I think it is a symbolic "fight to the death" and "take no prisoners" battle as the parties are waging it.

I happened to watch Cornett this morning on 4's Flash Point. He was still in full battle mode.

The problem is, the citizens of Oklahoma City are the "collateral damage".

[Doug Loudenback]

That is exactly the point, Betts. Both sides appear to be in full battle mode, and that will do not good for anyone, including the unions. I had a string tied around my finger to watch Flash Point this morning but it got lose somehow. I'd love to hear what was asked and answered. Can anyone describe?

[MikeOKC]

I want to make an observation whether one likes unions or not. Just a simple observation. The power of people organized.

MAPS 3 would be rolling through without a peep had it not been for the the fact that organized voices (in the form of unions) gave the organized voice of the powers that be (the city) a group with teeth to bite back and hold the words of the city leaders accountable.

I'm voting YES because I want this city to continue forward momentum. I've said before I don't like the lack of transparency with the whole thing and the entire vibe from the city and I hate being put in a position of voting yes, when good government tells me "no' and go back to the drawing board. But that won't happen, so yes it is. I admit to being played like a fiddle and I resent it. One thing is for sure --- I actually think it's a good thing to some of the city leaders be put on the spot by the power of organized voices, this time in the form of unions. Pro-union or anti-union, I can at least appreciate the power of people standing together, the purpose of unions in the first place.

[kevinpate]

I think it is a symbolic "fight to the death" and "take no prisoners" battle as the parties are waging it. ...

Rarely is there any other form of political posturing or advocacy these days.
This should generate no small level of sadness, no matter which side of the MAPs3 vote one advocates.

[OKCGUY3]

The flashpoint segment was one sided. Usually there are two people debating the issue at hand. However on this issue, Mayor Cornett and Past Mayor Humphreys were given mostly free reign to talk about their side of the issue. Wouldn't it have been more true to the name of the segment if there were representatives of both sides there to debate the issue. Why haven't we seen a debate of that kind? As for the NOT THIS MAPS campaign, I believe that the group wants all of the fine projects to be completed and the City of OKC to keep moving forward. The word "THIS" in their slogan insenuates that point. They have a problem with how the ballot is writton. Very vague on what the money will be spent on, approximate costs, and of course, no exlusive aid to the infrastructure or public safety. Before you say that the mayor has addressed that through the use tax offer to the unions, you need to understand that the offer was only for one year. Meaning that after that one year, there would be NO guaranty of ANY further assistance from the use tax. If this MAPS fails, I am positive that a more detailed ballot with more detailed accountability of the money would be presented and fully supported by the Unions.

[OKCGUY3]

Love the cartoons though Doug!

[iron76hd]

The problem is, the citizens of Oklahoma City are the "collateral damage".

What? To what extent is the question. If one side loses, then we lose a park, walking trails, and grandstands for the river. The other side loses and they continue to lose ground on being able to keep this city safe. Instead of starting a shift with 4-5 pages of calls holding. Less officers will struggle to muddle through 5-7 pages. More fire stations close. 34 police officers will be laid off because of admitted predicted shortfalls. More of both Public Safety groups continue to lose employee's through retirement or to the private sector putting an even greater strain on dwindling Manpower numbers. Then will come the public outcry, but at what price?

I can't believe that the Mayor or anyone else can get rational people to believe that if "THIS" MAPS3 doesn't pass we will somehow be doomed. Growth will be stopped. Momentum will completely stop. It's ridiculous!

[Doug Loudenback]

The flashpoint segment was one sided. Usually there are two people debating the issue at hand. However on this issue, Mayor Cornett and Past Mayor Humphreys were given mostly free reign to talk about their side of the issue. Wouldn't it have been more true to the name of the segment if there were representatives of both sides there to debate the issue. Why haven't we seen a debate of that kind? As for the NOT THIS MAPS campaign, I believe that the group wants all of the fine projects to be completed and the City of OKC to keep moving forward. The word "THIS" in their slogan insenuates that point. They have a problem with how the ballot is writton. Very vague on what the money will be spent on, approximate costs, and of course, no exlusive aid to the infrastructure or public safety. Before you say that the mayor has addressed that through the use tax offer to the unions, you need to understand that the offer was only for one year. Meaning that after that one year, there would be NO guaranty of ANY further assistance from the use tax. If this MAPS fails, I am positive that a more detailed ballot with more detailed accountability of the money would be presented and fully supported by the Unions.

As to the emphasized part, above, union representatives have said both that they do, and they don't, like the items involved with the MAPS 3 ballot ... they have been inconsistent. I didn't get around to writing summaries yet, but if you listen to the 11/13 audio at Doug Dawgz Blog: The Great MAPS 3 Debate you will hear very specific objections not only as to the lack of a guaranty but also specific condemnations of the items being (1) unneeded and (2) too costly.

And, thanks, OKCGuy3.

[iron76hd]

i

ll hear very specific objections not only as to the lack of a guaranty but also specific condemnations of the items being (1) unneeded and (2) too costly.

Too costly...at THIS time in our economy!!! Unneeded in comparison with the NEEDS of Manpower for this city's Public Safety.

Doug the message has been clear from day ONE! Their is no "hidden" agenda on the Police or Fire side. Don't even go there...

It's simple. This city NEEDS warm bodies to do the things that keep it safe. MANPOWER

[Doug Loudenback]

Iron, there have also been quite contrary statements made by union reps. I'll dig some out tomorrow. I'd planned to do that for my article anyway.

[Golfer]

The flashpoint segment was one sided. Usually there are two people debating the issue at hand. However on this issue, Mayor Cornett and Past Mayor Humphreys were given mostly free reign to talk about their side of the issue. Wouldn't it have been more true to the name of the segment if there were representatives of both sides there to debate the issue. Why haven't we seen a debate of that kind? As for the NOT THIS MAPS campaign, I believe that the group wants all of the fine projects to be completed and the City of OKC to keep moving forward. The word "THIS" in their slogan insenuates that point. They have a problem with how the ballot is writton. Very vague on what the money will be spent on, approximate costs, and of course, no exlusive aid to the infrastructure or public safety. Before you say that the mayor has addressed that through the use tax offer to the unions, you need to understand that the offer was only for one year. Meaning that after that one year, there would be NO guaranty of ANY further assistance from the use tax. If this MAPS fails, I am positive that a more detailed ballot with more detailed accountability of the money would be presented and fully supported by the Unions.

Amen, especially the last sentence because that is what is going to happen. Remember that most of the no voters are actively campaigning and not blogging except for me because I am taking a break. Vote No, it will pass the second time around once the rich stop counting their money and start working on getting a better ballot and more support.

[Easy180]

Amen, especially the last sentence because that is what is going to happen. Remember that most of the no voters are actively campaigning and not blogging except for me because I am taking a break. Vote No, it will pass the second time around once the rich stop counting their money and start working on getting a better ballot and more support.

This will pass rather easily...The No voters were also out in force for the Ford center upgrade ..That was a much easier battle for the naysayers to argue against and it wasn't even close in the end...Fire and police are essential but most consumers will choose amenities over things that don't directly affect them

The park itself will make this vote pass 60-40

[iron76hd]

Iron, there have also been quite contrary statements made by union reps.

You can dig up whatever you want. If you want the true meaning of any comment all you have to do is ask one of them. I've told you what the issues are. These are not politicians. Their speeches aren't scripted. If you want to know what was meant by any speech just ask. I resent your insinuating that any statement was contrary to another one. Or they've changed their message because they said this.

Their message is easy. It's clear. They have no reason to lie or change their point of view. I'll tell you what is contrary. They Mayor's insinuating that all of this opposition is about raises it a flat out lie. I know he knows better, but that sounded like something good to say to incite citizens to believe that all Police and Fireman are self serving and have a "hidden" agenda.

[okcpulse]

What? To what extent is the question. If one side loses, then we lose a park, walking trails, and grandstands for the river. The other side loses and they continue to lose ground on being able to keep this city safe. Instead of starting a shift with 4-5 pages of calls holding. Less officers will struggle to muddle through 5-7 pages. More fire stations close. 34 police officers will be laid off because of admitted predicted shortfalls. More of both Public Safety groups continue to lose employee's through retirement or to the private sector putting an even greater strain on dwindling Manpower numbers. Then will come the public outcry, but at what price?

Spare me the drama, iron. If MAPS 3 passes, exactly what funding is public safety going to lose? NADA. Like I have said before on several occasions today, if staff shortages are that much of a serious issue, go after a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS pie.

No one from the fire or police department said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release. Quite frankly, that's a bad move. I am 100% behind adequate staffing in public safety, but the opposition campaign is hammering the wrong nail.

[Golfer]

This will pass rather easily...The No voters were also out in force for the Ford center upgrade ..That was a much easier battle for the naysayers to argue against and it wasn't even close in the end...Fire and police are essential but most consumers will choose amenities over things that don't directly affect them

The park itself will make this vote pass 60-40

Wait and see and remember who told you that it would not pass on the first shot, Last time fire and police passionatley opposed a tax issue, if failed.

[Golfer]

Spare me the drama, iron. If MAPS 3 passes, exactly what funding is public safety going to lose? NADA. Like I have said before on several occasions today, if staff shortages are that much of a serious issue, go after a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS pie.

No one from the fire or police department said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release. Quite frankly, that's a bad move. I am 100% behind adequate staffing in public safety, but the opposition campaign is hammering the wrong nail.

We have been fighting city officals for years over staffing issues, it is just now getting more exposed.

[PennyQuilts]

I won't be back in time to vote but I sure am excited about it.

[Doug Loudenback]

You can dig up whatever you want. If you want the true meaning of any comment all you have to do is ask one of them. I've told you what the issues are. These are not politicians. Their speeches aren't scripted. If you want to know what was meant by any speech just ask. I resent your insinuating that any statement was contrary to another one. Or they've changed their message because they said this.

Their message is easy. It's clear. They have no reason to lie or change their point of view. I'll tell you what is contrary. They Mayor's insinuating that all of this opposition is about raises it a flat out lie. I know he knows better, but that sounded like something good to say to incite citizens to believe that all Police and Fireman are self serving and have a "hidden" agenda.

Resent away.

Although you said, "I've told you what the issues are," you've presented no credentials that you have status to make the authoritative-type statements that you like to make and/or that we should accept what you have to say as being representative of either union's position. Now, if we actually knew that you were the super-secret president of the FOP or the Firefighters union, well, of course, that would be a different story. As it is, to me, your comments aren't the least bit authoritative of anyone other than, well, you.

[andy157]

Spare me the drama, iron. If MAPS 3 passes, exactly what funding is public safety going to lose? NADA. Like I have said before on several occasions today, if staff shortages are that much of a serious issue, go after a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS pie.

No one from the fire or police department said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release. Quite frankly, that's a bad move. I am 100% behind adequate staffing in public safety, but the opposition campaign is hammering the wrong nail.

To say that no one from the Fire or police departments said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release is not actually correct.

I can not speak for the administrations of either the Fire or Police departments, or the FOP. But I can assure you the IAFF has been talking about Firefighter staffing issue since 2001. Talks with Fire Chiefs, Councilpersons, and the City Manager have at best only been able to maintain the status quo.

When the Fire Dept. staffing level was at 999 in 2000 the City manager began his reduction plan. We argued against the reduction of staffing every year but to no avail. We had year after year of cuts that brought staffing down to 948 in 2004.

The City Managers plan was to continue making cuts down to a level of 900. The best we were able to accomplish is getting him stopped at 948. The only thing that kept him from his goal was the economy and the threats of a lawsuit.

Now with the economy as his cover and a game plan 6 years in the making he sees his oportunity to resume his plan. Our mistake I see now was that we did not take our vocal protest to the public years ago.

[Chance23]

Rarely is there any other form of political posturing or advocacy these days.
This should generate no small level of sadness, no matter which side of the MAPs3 vote one advocates.

Agreed. People in power are going to do whatever they can to stay in power and further their own goals. Things like honesty and transparency are foreign concepts, and sympathy shouldn't be held on either side, regardless of who wins. The way it looks, the sides were made for each other.

The only part of MAPS 3 I'd consider vital is the streetcar system, then because public transportation is what separates the true metropolitan centers from the minor-league cities, and OKCs is terrible. The park and convention center are the eye candy portion, and everything else is designed to get votes.

[iron76hd]

Spare me the drama, iron.

It's not drama. Those are facts.

No one from the fire or police department said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release.

You say that as a matter of fact. I'm not sure if you are just typing to hear yourself type or what? This request has been going on for several years. Uhhh. That's why the Mayor and Manager asked for a study to be conducted. You must have missed the radio interviews, the press releases, or maybe both Police, Fire, and City Employee's leaders addressing the City Council in person.
Spare mepulse! Get a clue.

you've presented no credentials that you have status to make the authoritative-type statements that you like to make and/or that we should accept what you have to say as being representative of either union's position.

Are you for real? My statements are facts. Facts based on what I've lived and know about the current staffing problems in our Police Department and Fire Department. Who else would you believe? The Mayor? I have no reason to overstate any position or statistic. You apparently have no true care to find out any information about the staffing levels. You'd be so blind as to believe that if the City Manager and Mayor tell you everything is great then it's all good. You apparently have no expertise or factual information to make for either side. Do you? If so, please ...all ears..

[iron76hd]

Your expertise is gained from the cut and paste of one article after another. Your third or fourth person information is what you comment on or take as a matter of fact. What a joke..
Luckily for our city, those who have already been given the information of our staffing problems have listened with an open mind. Citizens so far have been very surprised and some disgusted. Unfortunately for you, many that vote don't live downtown only. They have true concerns about the staffing levels of "their" Police and Fire Department. You see they have no agenda, except what's right for their family. They don't have a loft downtown and many can't afford to eat at many of the restaurants downtown. They have no development issues and don't see the benefit of a park or trails. They care about the safety of their neighborhood. They live in very unstable neighborhoods and see the need for more Police Officers. The information that's being given to them can be "witnessed" by simply traveling to the local Fire or Police stations. The "Union peoples" claims of a shortage can be seen everyday. It's not cheap Political rhetoric. It's a matter of fact. They have a study approved by the same City Officials that dismiss the Manpower Shortage claims by the so called "Unions".

[betts]

Agreed. People in power are going to do whatever they can to stay in power
and further their own goals. Things like honesty and transparency are foreign concepts, and sympathy shouldn't be held on either side, regardless of who wins. The way it looks, the sides were made for each other.

The only part of MAPS 3 I'd consider vital is the streetcar system, then because public transportation is what separates the true metropolitan centers from the minor-league cities, and OKCs is terrible. The park and convention center are the eye candy portion, and everything else is designed to get votes.

I agree that the streetcar system is the most important, for all the reasons you and others have outlined, but eye candy is good too. We don't have enough of it here, and we've got to create our own, not having natural "eye candy" to fall back on.