America West

[mranderson]

This is the day... America West officially arrives in Oklahoma City.

The first flight out of Will Rogers is set for aproximatly 2:30 this afternoon, with the full flight schedual starting at 8:15 tomorrow morning.

Remember. Fly America West to the west coast, and we may be their hub. We have to earn that distiction.

[mrote]

Are they supposed to have non-stops to LA? My family is traveling to LA at the end of June and I am in the proces of buying tickets but they don't show any non-stops in my timeframe. Seeing as it's around $320 per ticket to LA from OKC with 1 stop, I will just drive to Dallas and leave from there on a non-stop Alaska Air flight for around $230. With a family of 4, the savings are substantial plus the convenience of not having to herd my kids on to a different plane.

[mranderson]

Are they supposed to have non-stops to LA? My family is traveling to LA at the end of June and I am in the proces of buying tickets but they don't show any non-stops in my timeframe. Seeing as it's around $320 per ticket to LA from OKC with 1 stop, I will just drive to Dallas and leave from there on a non-stop Alaska Air flight for around $230. With a family of 4, the savings are substantial plus the convenience of not having to herd my kids on to a different plane.

Not at this time. However, the connections are conveniant. When we get the hub, then, yes. LA would be a non stop.

[mrote]

Thank you. If it was just my wife and myself I wouldn't mind paying a bit more and supporting AW but when you add two more tickets it adds up quickly. The price difference will pay for Disneyland!

[mranderson]

OKC Talk officially welcomes America West to Oklahoma City.



ArriveOklahoma City, OKDate5/6/2005Date5/6/2005GateB12Gate9Scheduled9:03 AMScheduled1:18 PMActual9:03 AMActual1:18 PMStatusDepartedStatusArrived

[OUman]

If we get a hub, that's great. But market dynamics will dictate much of that, after all, it has to be profitable, otherwise the airline won't do it, simple. Also keep in mind the high fuel prices and such.

OUman

[NewPlains]

ah, but high fuel prices could work in our favor...refueling in OKC is much cheaper than refueling almost anywhere else in the country, which would be a major plus for a mid continent hub.

[OUman]

True, you have a point.

[Midtowner]

So what do you all think is our chance if AW merges with United Airways -- it seems very likely at this point.

I would think with all the infrastructure that they could consolidate, that OKC's chances of getting a hub would be nil.

[mranderson]

So what do you all think is our chance if AW merges with United Airways -- it seems very likely at this point.

I would think with all the infrastructure that they could consolidate, that OKC's chances of getting a hub would be nil.

Part of the chances would be who the succeding carrier is. If it is America West, then no change. US Air, maybe. If they regionalize and use both names, again, no change.

Chances are, it will be either the former or the latter. Keep optomistic. The more postive reaction, the better.

[Midtowner]

Part of the chances would be who the succeding carrier is. If it is America West, then no change. US Air, maybe. If they regionalize and use both names, again, no change.

Chances are, it will be either the former or the latter. Keep optomistic. The more postive reaction, the better.

What were the chances of AW locating here before the talks? I didn't see that they were all that good.

I'd imagine our facilities would need some major upgrading before we could become a hub for anything.

Of course, with these discount airlines, they really don't operate major hubs as much as they do mini-hubs. They're much less centralized than say.. United or Delta.

[mranderson]

What were the chances of AW locating here before the talks? I didn't see that they were all that good.

I'd imagine our facilities would need some major upgrading before we could become a hub for anything.

Of course, with these discount airlines, they really don't operate major hubs as much as they do mini-hubs. They're much less centralized than say.. United or Delta.

If you remember I said in an earlier thread, all we have to do is fill six puddle jumpers a day, or come close, for about 18 months to two years, then the airline would file for hub status.

Guess what. EVERY flight so far is either fully booked or close. The flight I am taking to Phoenix has been sold out for several weeks.

Yes. We will eventually need a second terminal and several maintance hangers. If the airline announces, the airport distrust will be forced to build what we need to plan for now.

Chances so far, are as high as the planes fly at cruising.

[Midtowner]

Now, the talks of merger are becoming very desperate for US Airways, and it seems it's almost a done deal -- look, the Executive team have already packed their golden parachutes:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05131/502416.stm

I think the hub is something that shall not come to pass.

[brianinok]

I am not sure what their strategy would be after a merger with US Airways (assuming America West would be the purchaser). That would leave them with 4 hubs: Phoenix, Las Vegas, Philadelphia, and Charlotte. That's 2 on each coast. While a large percentage of people live on the coasts, it would not be convenient for anyone originating or arriving in the central US. If American West truly wants to be national (if not international) carrier, they would presumably need a central US hub. OKC would still be perfect for that. I could also see in the future them consoladating their 4 coast hubs into 2. Phoenix and Las Vegas are about 250 miles apart (as the crow flies), and Charlotte and Philadelphia are about 450 miles apart (as the crow flies). My thoughts are they they are too close for their long-term prospects. Maybe they would reduce two of them to smaller hubs (like American did with St. Louis). Anyway, just thoughts. I would think we still have a chance, but it woudl take longer with a merger b/c I would think their main focus would be on integrating the two operations for a while.

[OUman]

A second terminal isn't what's needed, another concourse-the East Concourse, is what's needed. The East Concourse will have eight gates, that's more than enough to have a mini-hub or even a hub.

OUman

[mranderson]

A second terminal isn't what's needed, another concourse-the East Concourse, is what's needed. The East Concourse will have eight gates, that's more than enough to have a mini-hub or even a hub.

OUman

+

It sounds like you do not travel to hub cities much. A hub requires 30 gates minimum. At Sky Harbor, America West has around 50 gates.

There is no way an airline can have a hub with eight gates. Not even a "mini" hub.

[OUman]

+

It sounds like you do not travel to hub cities much. A hub requires 30 gates minimum. At Sky Harbor, America West has around 50 gates.

There is no way an airline can have a hub with eight gates. Not even a "mini" hub.

For the record, I have been to about 10 different hub airports-Atlanta Hartsfield, St. Louis Lambert, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston Intercontinental, Frankfurt Int'l, Charles de Gaulle Int'l, London Heathrow, JFK, Cincinnati Northern Ketucky Int'l, and O'Hare. Yes, all this does prove exactly what you said, more than 30 gates. That also proves that you need that many more passengers.

The new terminal at OKC can be significantly expanded to accomodate more gates. When a terminal's expanded or new terminals are built, they are built in such a way that there is plenty of room available for future expansion of the same terminal.

OUman

[mranderson]

For the record, I have been to about 10 different hub airports-Atlanta Hartsfield, St. Louis Lambert, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston Intercontinental, Frankfurt Int'l, Charles de Gaulle Int'l, London Heathrow, JFK, Cincinnati Northern Ketucky Int'l, and O'Hare. Yes, all this does prove exactly what you said, more than 30 gates. That also proves that you need that many more passengers.

The new terminal at OKC can be significantly expanded to accomodate more gates. When a terminal's expanded or new terminals are built, they are built in such a way that there is plenty of room available for future expansion of the same terminal.

OUman

The way you wrote gave me a reasonable thought that you had never been to hub airports. Myself? I have been to most hubs in the United States. That is about a dozen.

Not to meet the needs of a hub. Many airlines want their own terminal when they hub. Plus, it looks great to have two 30 gate terminals. America West does share a terminal with Southwest in Sky Harbor, however, they each have about 50 gates. The area for expansion to the current terminal could not accomodate enough gates for America West's hub needs. It may be able to accomodate 30 gates maximum. Why? Remember. Once a plane pushes back, it takes a lot of room to taxi. Plus, they need room for more than one plane at a time to do so.

[venture]

There will never be a hub in OKC requiring 30 gates. The airline model of the old hub and spoke system is dead except for the legacies and Frontier in DEN. The Spirit Airlines hub in DTW and FLL don't even come close to this 30 gate number. Nor did the ATA hub in MDW (before Ch11), Midway hub in RDU, US Airways in DCA (16 gates), ...need I go on? I really don't see how an idea of an America West hub in OKC even came to pass. They are flying 3 RJs into OKC...2 50-seaters and a 90-seater. OOOOOO. Filling those is, at the most, going to bring more frequencies or a few 319s. Doug Parker is not stupid and isn't going to spend millions on a new hub in OKC if a few RJ flights perform well. Could they look at a focus city in OKC as part of the US/HP merger...perhaps - but not a hub. They will spend their efforts connecting the dots between networks...not spending boat loads of cash to setup a new expensive hub in a city that doesn't have the O&D to support it.

I think a few just need to sit back and relax and welcome the new air service...but don't get too ahead of yourselves. Things take time to develop...and the OKC market must develop for America West before they invest much more into the city. I don't even think HP does their own ground handling in OKC...so don't get too excited.

[mranderson]

Never, huh. Another person who can predict the future until the end of time, I guess.

If you had read the other threads, you would have read the fact I personally heard the conversation where the news of the possible hub was released.

I have been to numerous hub cities in my life, and have never seen a hub with as few gates as you describe. All require a minimum of 30 gates. Most have more.

Why not be positive and optomistic. Most people who visit or read about a city are turned off by pessimism. So am I, fo that matter.

[OUman]

Actually, he is right about some of the hubs, Midwest's hub at Milwaukee's airport is less than 30 gates, same goes for Frontier at DIA and US Airways at Reagan National, although that technically isn't a hub.

Btw venture 79, America West Express only operates the CRJ 200's, not the 900, to/from WRA.

OUman

[chrisok]

Actually I Think flight 6383 to PHX is a CRJ-900. The other 2 are 200's.

[mranderson]

Actually I Think flight 6383 to PHX is a CRJ-900. The other 2 are 200's.

I checked America West's website. You are correct. The flight you cited is a 900. The publicity releases for the flights said 50 passenger jets. I was surprised to see one a bit larger.

Tall people like me hate these regionals. They are uncomfortable for a flight as long as Phoenix. However, it could be worse. The connecting flight to San Diego that a friend is taking is also a regional.

[venture]

Never, huh. Another person who can predict the future until the end of time, I guess.

If you had read the other threads, you would have read the fact I personally heard the conversation where the news of the possible hub was released.

I have been to numerous hub cities in my life, and have never seen a hub with as few gates as you describe. All require a minimum of 30 gates. Most have more.

Why not be positive and optomistic. Most people who visit or read about a city are turned off by pessimism. So am I, fo that matter.

Considering the way words like to played on this board, I should have know better than to use 'never'. However, like I said - you will never see the old style hubs set up anymore in cities that lack enough O&D. This is the reason why PIT was dehubbed, and other cities that use to serve as hubs no longer are - DAY, RDU, CMH, etc. I think it should be noted that America West had a hub in Columbus OH - which is slightly larger than OKC and has a greater population (within a 2 hr drive) to draw from. Towards the end the hub was nothing more than merely a bunch of ERJs flying routes 733s use to operate on. Of course the mission of that hub was to bridge the PHX/LAS hubs to the east coast and that was no longer needed with the Airbus equipment coming online.

I can't discount anything you may have heard but just keep in mind the industry changes every day and what you may have heard yesterday was already out of date 2 seconds later. The fact of the matter right now is that America West is going to 1) be focused on a merger with US Airways or 2) trying to find increased liquidity as their cash on hand drops below $100 million by the end of the year. The carrier is in no position to open a new hub, especially in a market that isn't developed to its brand yet. Kansas City makes more sense since US Airways already has some feed to there thanks to Air Midwest.

As far as the size of hubs...it’s apparent you haven't been out of the mega hubs. Fort Widget in Atlanta and DFW are examples of the old fortress hubs we'll never see again.

Lastly...I'm all for being positive and optimistic...however you have to continue to be rational and use common sense as well. I'm originally from a city that has a population of around 300,000 and a MSA pop just under 700,000. That city has more backwards thinking and negativity than OKC will ever see. I've spent many years being a public critic to the Port Authority in that city on the way the airport is ran. If you think OKC is doing a bad job...I invite you to look around to other cities more and see how the airports are performing passenger number wise, financially, etc. Yes...I'm talking looking at the market in more ways than just gates and flights.

[venture]

I checked America West's website. You are correct. The flight you cited is a 900. The publicity releases for the flights said 50 passenger jets. I was surprised to see one a bit larger.

Tall people like me hate these regionals. They are uncomfortable for a flight as long as Phoenix. However, it could be worse. The connecting flight to San Diego that a friend is taking is also a regional.

Yes...they updated the flight about 3 months ago - noticed it in Amadeus one day.