In remembrance of the third anniversary

[PUGalicious]

Iraq War: The Third Anniversary

• U.S. Military Deaths (reported as of 3/18/06): 2,318

• U.S. Military Wounded (reported as of 3/14/06): 17,124

• Iraqi Civilian Deaths (reported as of 3/17/06): 33,679-37,795

• Cost to American taxpayers (as of 3/18/06): $248.5 billion

IN MEMORIAM
We remember and pay tribute to the courageous Oklahomans who have made the ultimate sacrifice
in the last three years while serving in Iraq, as well as all their families and friends who have
suffered the devastating loss of a loved one.

• Thomas Alan Blair, Wagoner, Lance Corporal, March 24, 2003
• Melvin L. Blazer, Moore, Staff Sergeant, December 12, 2004
• Doyle W. Bollinger Jr., Poteau, Petty Officer 3rd Class, June 6, 2003
• John J. Boria, Broken Arrow, Captain, September 6, 2004
• Adam Noel Brewer, Dewey/Bartlesville, Specialist, February 25, 2005
• Kyle A. Brinlee, Pryor, Specialist, May 11, 2004
• Lance M. Chase, Oklahoma City, Staff Sergeant, January 23, 2006
• Lawrence S. Colton, Oklahoma City, Chief Warrant Officer, April 11, 2004
• Zachariah Scott Davis, Spiro, Sergeant, January 6, 2005
• James R. Graham III, Coweta, Sergeant, August 1, 2005
• Travis J. Grigg, Inola, Private 1st Class, November 15, 2005
• Nathaniel T. Hammond, Tulsa, Corporal, November 8, 2004
• Jared D. Hartley, Newkirk, Specialist, July 15, 2005
• Robert T. Hendrickson, Broken Bow, Specialist, February 1, 2005
• Jeffrey S. Henthorn, Choctaw, Specialist, February 8, 2005
• Fern L. Holland, Miami, Civilian, March 9, 2004
• Luke S. James, (unspecified), 2nd Lieutenant, January 27, 2004
• Brian K. Joplin, Hugo, Petty Officer 2nd Class, October 4, 2005
• Carl W. Lee, Oklahoma City, Sergeant, November 28, 2004
• James E. Marshall, Tulsa, Specialist, May 5, 2004
• David J. Martin, Edmond, Private 1st Class, October 31, 2005
• Joseph L. Nice, Nicoma Park, Lance Corporal, August 4, 2004
• Jason L. Norton, Miami, Technical Sergeant, January 22, 2006
• Joshua M. Pearce, Guymon, Specialist, February 26, 2006
• Ross A. Pennanen, Shawnee, Sergeant, November 2, 2003
• Erickson H. Petty, Fort Gibson, Staff Sergeant, May 3, 2004
• Joshua Francis Powers, Skiatook, Private, February 24, 2006
• Jeffry A. Rogers, Oklahoma City, Corporal, November 16, 2005
• Sonny Gene Sampler, Oklahoma City, Specialist, July 8, 2004
• Stephen M. Scott, Lawton, Specialist, August 23, 2003
• Steven E. Shepard, Purcell, Chief Warrant Officer, June 27, 2005
• Brandon K. Sneed, Norman, Sergeant 1st Class, October 10, 2005
• Scott M. Vincent, Bokoshe, Corporal, April 30, 2004
• Jason M. Ward, Tulsa, Private, October 22, 2003
• Joshua J. Ware, Apache, Corporal, November 16, 2005
• Nachez Washalanta, Bryan, Private 1st Class, August 21, 2004
• Steven W. White, Lawton, Sergeant, August 13, 2003
• Aaron Dean White, Shawnee, Staff Sergeant, May 19, 2003
• Lamont N. Wilson, Lawton, Lance Corporal, September 6, 2004
• Jordan D. Winkler, Tulsa, Lance Corporal, November 26, 2004
  
  For a comprehensive listing by state of all American soldiers who died while serving in Iraq, click here.
  

Let us also remember and honor the thousands upon thousands who have been seriously wounded in the line of duty in Iraq, bearing profound physical and emotional scars that have dramatically changed their lives forever.

(Names provided by icasualites.org)

.

[Curt]

This has got to stop. It is costing taxpayers way too much money that should be spent here in our own backyard and way too many American lives. The fighting will NEVER end over there, so what do we do, stay forever? I think not.We need to pull out and bring everyone home and clean up our own backyard here.I am sorry but the only way this is ever going to stop is to go in and bomb the hell out of the place, end it once and for all.

[Randy]

This has got to stop. It is costing taxpayers way too much money that should be spent here in our own backyard and way too many American lives. The fighting will NEVER end over there, so what do we do, stay forever? I think not.We need to pull out and bring everyone home and clean up our own backyard here.I am sorry but the only way this is ever going to stop is to go in and bomb the hell out of the place, end it once and for all.

You are kidding, right? Yeah, let's just bomb the place and kill all of the innocent women and children. That would be a disastrous move. We've got to stay there and fight for freedoms. We can't tuck tail and run.

The fighting will end, but we have to support the president. Too many of these Bush haters make the rest of America look bad because they don't support the war. I hear them criticize Bush, but I have yet to see any of these democratic Bush haters come up with a better plan. It is so much easier to complain than it is to find a solution.

[PUGalicious]

we have to support the president

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

— Editorial written by Theodore Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918

Too many of these Bush haters make the rest of America look bad because they don't support the war. I hear them criticize Bush, but I have yet to see any of these democratic Bush haters come up with a better plan. It is so much easier to complain than it is to find a solution.

You can be critical of the president and oppose the war without hating Bush or being a Democrat. It should come as no surprise to veterans of this site that I did not support this war from the beginning, even when I was still a Republican who had voted for Bush in 2000. Even today, I am not a Democrat, nor do I hate Bush; but I still oppose the war. The war in Iraq was unjustified based on the long-standing "Just War" standard most civilized nations adhered to for moral justification. The war and subsequent occupation has been mismanaged, which has exacerbated the problems we've encountered there.

It's not incumbent upon the war opponents to come up with "a better plan" for a war they did not initiate or support to begin with. It is the responsibility of those who created the mess to fix it, or to find new leadership who can do a better job.

What concerns me most is that the war drums are beginning to beat louder for Iran. We haven't finished one job and cleaned up that mess before posturing for another conflict. Our military is stretched thin as it is, how can we honestly think about hostilities with another nation when we can't resolve the current conflict we're hip deep in?

"Stay the course" is not the answer, any more than "Mission Accomplished" was an accurate summation of the situation or "Bring 'em on" was an appropriate way to respond to early insurgency — they brought it and it has cost a couple thousand soldiers their lives.

[Curt]

So Randy, what do you think we should do? Stay over there forever? I can gaurantee you 20 years from now they will still be fighting whether we are there or not, so why stay? They hate us, they dont want us there for anyother reason but to protect them, what is it doing for US. I dont hate Bush and I do support our troops. I voted for Bush, but would not again if he was running again, no. I dont like the way he is running things in this country. He, and other seem to be so interested in taking care of problems in other countries and shoving it up our American asses. Why not take the money that is being spent over in Iraq and take care of all our people here that have been recently put out of work? why not take that money and give back our retired people that worked all their lives back their benefits that are being cut day by day? why not take care of our own before worrying about the rest of the world? Randy? how about you sponsor one Iraqi family so they can come and live here without the rest of us taxpayers having to pay for something we dont want. I just dont think that us being over there is going to ever bring peace to that region, do you? and if you dont think it will, then give me a good reason for us to stay? because I really need to know.Randy?

[Randy]

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

— Editorial written by Theodore Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918

You can be critical of the president and oppose the war without hating Bush or being a Democrat. It should come as no surprise to veterans of this site that I did not support this war from the beginning, even when I was still a Republican who had voted for Bush in 2000. Even today, I am not a Democrat, nor do I hate Bush; but I still oppose the war. The war in Iraq was unjustified based on the long-standing "Just War" standard most civilized nations adhered to for moral justification. The war and subsequent occupation has been mismanaged, which has exacerbated the problems we've encountered there.

It's not incumbent upon the war opponents to come up with "a better plan" for a war they did not initiate or support to begin with. It is the responsibility of those who created the mess to fix it, or to find new leadership who can do a better job.

What concerns me most is that the war drums are beginning to beat louder for Iran. We haven't finished one job and cleaned up that mess before posturing for another conflict. Our military is stretched thin as it is, how can we honestly think about hostilities with another nation when we can't resolve the current conflict we're hip deep in?

"Stay the course" is not the answer, any more than "Mission Accomplished" was an accurate summation of the situation or "Bring 'em on" was an appropriate way to respond to early insurgency — they brought it and it has cost a couple thousand soldiers their lives.

Like I have always said, if you have a better plan, then share it with us. It is very evident that you are taking the easy way out by criticizing the war, and then sitting back in your easy chair waiting for someone to come up with a solution. And please don't start quoting these past presidents. If that is the best you have, then keep looking. Like my dad told me, "son, if you don't have a solution to the problem, then you don't have a right to complain," however, he goes on to say that if you do have a solution, then share it, and solve the problem.

All the Independents and Democrats ever do is complain about the war, but they have no viable solutions. We can't just go "blow everyone up in Iraq" like one poster suggested.

I support our president and the decisions that he is making. My heart goes out to these men and women that have sacrificed their lives, because they have left families behind. Many of these soldiers are happy to serve their country in any capacity. What they can't stand are the American radicals that condemn the great job they are doing in Iraq, to bring freedom for others.

[PUGalicious]

As I said previously, it's not incumbent upon the war opponents to come up with "a better plan" for a war they did not initiate or support to begin with. It is the responsibility of those who created the mess to fix it, or to find new leadership who can do a better job.

[PUGalicious]

All the Independents and Democrats ever do is complain about the war, but they have no viable solutions. We can't just go "blow everyone up in Iraq" like one poster suggested.

Here's another one of those complainers about the war... he's not a Independent, he's not a Democrat... wait, wait... he's Republican?

In a column for National Review Online, one of the great patriarchs of modern American conservatism, William F. Buckley Jr., says it’s time for this president and his administration to admit that the Iraq mission has failed, acknowledge defeat and move forward.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven’t proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren’t on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. […]

It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others’ throats. […]

Mr. Bush has a very difficult internal problem here because to make the kind of concession that is strategically appropriate requires a mitigation of policies he has several times affirmed in high-flown pronouncements. His challenge is to persuade himself that he can submit to a historical reality without forswearing basic commitments in foreign policy. […]

And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.

[Randy]

As I said previously, it's not incumbent upon the war opponents to come up with "a better plan" for a war they did not initiate or support to begin with. It is the responsibility of those who created the mess to fix it, or to find new leadership who can do a better job.

Wrong again. That's a big cop out if I ever heard one. Sure, keep complaining from your cozy recliner and wait for somebody else to fix things. I see where you are coming from. You can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. Thanks for proving my point.

[PUGalicious]

And what are you doing to contribute to the solution?

[Randy]

Here's another one of those complainers about the war... he's not a Independent, he's not a Democrat... wait, wait... he's Republican?

In a column for National Review Online, one of the great patriarchs of modern American conservatism, William F. Buckley Jr., says it’s time for this president and his administration to admit that the Iraq mission has failed, acknowledge defeat and move forward.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven’t proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren’t on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. […]

It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others’ throats. […]

Mr. Bush has a very difficult internal problem here because to make the kind of concession that is strategically appropriate requires a mitigation of policies he has several times affirmed in high-flown pronouncements. His challenge is to persuade himself that he can submit to a historical reality without forswearing basic commitments in foreign policy. […]

And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.

That's funny. The president made the right move to invade Iraq and to do his best to make sure their dictator was overthrown, and bring freedom to Iraq. There was no mistake made here and nothing to acknowledge, except that there is still work to do, and we will continue to do it until the job is done. Defeat is not in Bush's language and it should not be in ours.

The mission is alive and well and going strong. There are no failures here. The only failures are the American's that complain but can't come up with a solution.

[Curt]

[QUOTE=Randy We can't just go "blow everyone up in Iraq" like one poster suggested.

QUOTE]
That would be me, and why not? you said you cant complain unless you have a solution, well that is my solution.As far out as it is, it is truly the only way it will ever end. So as I see it we will be over there forever.Randy, they have been at it for how many years? what makes you think it will ever end? it just aint gonna end the way we are handling it now.Bush sucks, bottom line he sucks.And I consider myself a republican, but may have to reconsider that.

[Curt]

[QUOTE=Randy]
That's funny. The president made the right move to invade Iraq and to do his best to make sure their dictator was overthrown, and bring freedom to Iraq.QUOTE]
And meanwhile we are losing more of our freedoms, but does he give a s**t about that? No. He is so worried about taking care of other countries that our once great country is going to hell.

[OkieBear]

[QUOTE=mariner62]

And meanwhile we are losing more of our freedoms,... .

Give us an example of a freedom that you have given up or a civil liberty of which you have been deprived?

And let me ask everyone who opposed the war from the start; should we let Saddaam go and put him back in power? Because that would be the result if we went back in time and didn't go in to Iraq.

[Curt]

[QUOTE=OkieBear]

Give us an example of a freedom that you have given up or a civil liberty of which you have been deprived?

And let me ask everyone who opposed the war from the start; should we let Saddaam go and put him back in power? Because that would be the result if we went back in time and didn't go in to Iraq.

Well, number one we are fighting everyday for our rights to keep and bear arms for one. Taking away our guns will only make matters worse, but thats what the government wants, just one more way of controlling us. Have you traveled lately and been through all the b.s that we now have to go through because of the terroist? I dont know about you, but I am sick of paying for things for which I did not ask for. I dont ask to pay for all the illegals in this country, I am made to pay. I never opposed the war, after 911 I was all for going in and taking care of things, but they are not taking care of anything and I dont see where things are getting any better at all. Now Bush says we will be there for years, I dont want my tax dollars being spent over seas, but I have no say so.Day by day we are losing more and more of our once great American lifestyles because we are forced to coddle people that want to come here and live off of my tax dollars so I cant afford what I want, I dont want that, but I am forced to pay for it. Yah I have a problem with that.

[OkieBear]

[QUOTE=mariner62]

Well, number one we are fighting everyday for our rights to keep and bear arms for one. Taking away our guns will only make matters worse, but thats what the government wants, just one more way of controlling us. Have you traveled lately and been through all the b.s that we now have to go through because of the terroist? I dont know about you, but I am sick of paying for things for which I did not ask for. I dont ask to pay for all the illegals in this country, I am made to pay. I never opposed the war, after 911 I was all for going in and taking care of things, but they are not taking care of anything and I dont see where things are getting any better at all. Now Bush says we will be there for years, I dont want my tax dollars being spent over seas, but I have no say so.Day by day we are losing more and more of our once great American lifestyles because we are forced to coddle people that want to come here and live off of my tax dollars so I cant afford what I want, I dont want that, but I am forced to pay for it. Yah I have a problem with that.

President Bush has been the biggest friend of gun rights in decades, so it isn't his administration that is trying to take those away. As for illegal aliens, that problem has been here for years and will be here for many more until all politicians of both parties decide to get tough and do something about it. Blaming those things on the war is ridiculous! Yes, we have stricter security at airports, and I think a little profiling would be a good thing there, but in the absence of that, do you propose we go back to the lax security pre-9/11?

[keving]

That's funny. The president made the right move to invade Iraq and to do his best to make sure their dictator was overthrown, and bring freedom to Iraq. There was no mistake made here and nothing to acknowledge, except that there is still work to do, and we will continue to do it until the job is done. Defeat is not in Bush's language and it should not be in ours.

The mission is alive and well and going strong. There are no failures here. The only failures are the American's that complain but can't come up with a solution.

Let's see... original reason to invade Iraq... Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). Woops, they didn't have any. Uh, because Saddam Hussein was a cruel dictator. He abused Iraqi citizens' human rights. 1) There are crueler things happening in other parts of the world (Sudan, North Korea, etc... take your pick). 2) These violoations of human rights happened in the 80's when the United States supported Saddam Hussein as an ally in the protection of American financial and political interests in the region.

So, I fail to see how invading Iraq was the right thing to do.

[Curt]

[QUOTE=OkieBear]

President Bush has been the biggest friend of gun rights in decades, so it isn't his administration that is trying to take those away. As for illegal aliens, that problem has been here for years and will be here for many more until all politicians of both parties decide to get tough and do something about it. Blaming those things on the war is ridiculous! Yes, we have stricter security at airports, and I think a little profiling would be a good thing there, but in the absence of that, do you propose we go back to the lax security pre-9/11?

No, I propose we stop being the nice guy and take care of matters once and for all.Imigration needs to stop, for awhile anyway until we get things back under control here. It's just the typical "Since we cant take care of the real problem, we will make the innocent people change their ways of life" crap I am tired of. We will never win the war the way we are going, so either do something about it now or pull out, stop spending my tax dollars where I dont approve of them being spent.It's people like you and I that need to change things, politicians arent going to do anything about it because their pockets are being padded by foreign governments. Did you know China wont take back something like 39,000 illegal imigrants here because they dont want them back, so why do we have to support them like we are? Why do we have to let Cubans stay here once they reach our shores? Why do we have to let Arab women come here to have their babies and then we have to let them stay, on our tax dollars? these are just a few things I dont want, but have no say so over, even though I pay taxes and they dont.These are just a few things against my freedom, my freedom as a taxpayer to say I dont want that.

[MadMonk]

Let's see... original reason to invade Iraq... Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). Woops, they didn't have any.

None that we have found, but we know that they DID have them. After all it was us that gave them to him.

Uh, because Saddam Hussein was a cruel dictator. He abused Iraqi citizens' human rights. 1) There are crueler things happening in other parts of the world (Sudan, North Korea, etc... take your pick).

So your argument is that we chose the wrong place to go to war? That's debatable. Would you have supported us going into Korea or Sudan or wherever? We did take our pick in Iraq.

2) These violoations of human rights happened in the 80's when the United States supported Saddam Hussein as an ally in the protection of American financial and political interests in the region.

Partially right. However, after the '91 Gulf War he used helicoptors and poison gas to quell the Kurd uprising, killing many people. Thats one of the reasons why the no-fly zone was established - in which, by the way, he was provoking us daily by shooting at our planes - an act of war.

[keving]

None that we have found, but we know that they DID have them. After all it was us that gave them to him.

Did you see those numbers at the beginning of this post? If not, I'll repost them

• U.S. Military Deaths (reported as of 3/18/06): 2,318
  
• U.S. Military Wounded (reported as of 3/14/06): 17,124
  
• Iraqi Civilian Deaths (reported as of 3/17/06): 33,679-37,795
  
• Cost to American taxpayers (as of 3/18/06): $248.5 billion

Now, shouldn't we have concrete evidence before giving up 2,318 American lives and spending $248.5 billion on a war?

Oh yah, those WMD's... we've stopped looking for them. Because they never existed!

Iraq Survey Group to Concede Defeat in Search for WMD

The Iraq Survey Group is expected to report today that it has found no evidence of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in post-war Iraq.

Charles Duelfer, the chief UN arms inspector in Iraq, is due to present the findings in a 1,500-page report to Congress.

He is expected to conclude that Iraq had neither weapons of mass destruction, nor significant WMD production programmes at the time of the invasion.

This was back in October 2004.

So your argument is that we chose the wrong place to go to war? That's debatable. Would you have supported us going into Korea or Sudan or wherever? We did take our pick in Iraq.

I'm just saying that we started a war based on lies. Everyone knows exactly what is happening in Sudan and N Korea.

[OkieBear]

I'm just saying that we started a war based on lies. Everyone knows exactly what is happening in Sudan and N Korea.

First of all, it isn't a lie if everyone in the world, including Bill Clinton, Isreal, France, Germany, Great Britain, the UN, John Kerry, etc, etc, etc, believed he had WMD. In fact just recently Saddaam's own intelligence chief said he moved them out or hid them in the desert shortly before we went in. There is new evidence that his government had contact with Al Quaida, including Bin Laden. He paid the families of terrorists thousands of dollars when their relatives blew someone up, especially Israelis.

Second, we have found WMD, including hundreds of tons of sarin gas and ricin.

Third, there are hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that we are still reviewing. We've found evidence that he had the weapons programs to make WDM and had every intention or resurrecting his nuclear program.

After 9/11 we didn't have a choice but to take his threat seriously. Bush gets accused of not doing enough to prevent 9/11, but when he does try to prevent a similar thing from happening he gets accused of going too fast. Good thing he doesn't put his finger in the wind like so many politicians. Our soldiers (who are all volunteers, incidentally) know they are on an important mission. They're doing great work and most of the Iraqis appreciate it. I for one thank God every day that Al Gore was not president during 9/11 and that John Kerry isn't president today.

[MadMonk]

Did you see those numbers at the beginning of this post? If not, I'll repost them

Oh yah, those WMD's... we've stopped looking for them. Because they never existed!

No need to rehash your figures, I can read. Interesting how they compare with the original estimates of "tens of thousands" of U.S. deaths that where thrown around before the war.

In any case, you didn't address the fact that we gave him much of the material. Where did it go? There is no record of their destruction, so where is it? My hunch in that much of it made its way to Syria while the U.N. was figuring out ways to keep us out of Iraq and the discovery of the oil-for-food debacle.

You also failed to acknowlege the violations of the no-fly zone where our pilots were being fired on daily. Pfft...what's a few missles fired at our aircraft, right? And do you deny the fact that Hussein was a brutal despot and that having him out of the global picture is a good thing? Even with the insurgency the Iraqi people as a whole (meaning not just those of the Baath party) are undeniably better off today than they ever were under Hussein's rule.