OKC or TULSA? Which Metro Has The Most Long-Term Growth Potential?

[JOHNINSOKC]

As our state continues to grow, it seems as though our two largest cities are experiencing rapid growth in population and economic development. Although OKC is growing at a good clip, it appears that Tulsa has the most momentum lately. During the next 10 years, which city will enjoy the most prosperity? Will Tulsa ever take over as the state's most populous metro or will OKC leave Tulsa in the dust as the years go by?

[TStheThird]

What momentum does Tulsa have besides building things that we already have. Been there done that. Tell me something I don't know.

[HOT ROD]

I agree. I dont think Tulsa has any momentum advantage over OKC.

If anything, Tulsa does hold OKC back from its full potential in that it is a large city which siphons away from what otherwise would go to OKC - but OKC is definitely the big boy of the block and OKC will continue to be.

I think OKC will blow Tulsa away in the next census. Look for OKC to be 600,000+ city/1.5+ CMA. Tulsa 400,000 city (high estimate)/950,000 CMA (which includes Bartlesville by the way).

[Spartan]

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

P.S. Tulsa already has 950,000 in the CMSA. And there are already 390,000 in the corporal city limits.

[HOT ROD]

Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.

like OKC doesn't have any.

Oh, and Tulsa HAD 393K in its city in 2000 but dropped down to what 378K in the 2005 estimate (??). I look for it to go up to 400K and that's being nice.

[Spartan]

Well seeing as you are such a nice guy, I'm sure you'll be fair to the other city in this state. And I notice you don't concede the metro population, or do you?

Don't matter, but I can say that OKC's private sector is less diversified, and in terms of job growth, is a drop in the bucket for this state compared to the job market in Tulsa, that is through the roof right now.

[floater]

[QUOTE=Spartan;79298]Tulsa's advantage is something commonly referred to as... are y'all ready for this... the private sector.
[QUOTE]

I actually agree with Spartan. The private sector in Tulsa is more creative, knowledge-based, and dynamic than OKC's.

[metro]

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

[floater]

Either way, OKC will leave Tulsa in the dust as far as sheer population goes. Its in the middle of the state, divided by 2 major trans-continental corridors. Not to mention the reason Tulsa is seeing slightly better numbers than OKC this year is because they are playing catch up. Look at OKC's numbers the last few years. As someone said, they are building things we already have. With the Hornets or whatever NBA team we might have and the new downtown boulevard and Oklahoma River potential, we'll be a whole new city before Tulsa lands one major league team. Oh and by the way, we are the Capitol City too.

As I've said before, population means squat if people's idea of growth means call center jobs. Being the capital protects OKC from downturns, but that in no way means that OKC has more growth potential. I don't know where Tulsa is headed, and I don't care what they've built; the fact is Tulsa is more entrepreneurial. Most of OKC's success really has been top-down.

[metro]

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

[floater]

I wasn't saying that more population meant anything. I simply said OKC will continue to have a larger population. But you have to realize OKC is rapidly becoming more entrepreneurial by the day. And with quality of life issues only continuing to improve, this should stay on track. Also we have one of the best medical research facilities in the country and I only see that continuing to grow. With that being said. It's going to be a neck and neck race on the entrepreneurial front.

And that is why it is exciting to be in OKC right now...

[okcpulse]

I have to somewhat disagree with floater. Traditionally, Tulsa was always the more entrpreneurial city. Yet in the last fifteen years, Oklahoma City has seen plenty of start-up companies. Two of them were no-name companies with less than ten employees. Today, they are a LARGE part of OKC's corporate base... Devon and Chesapeake. That's not to say that Tulsa is any less entrepreneurial. Both cities are gung-ho on private sector business. What helped Oklahoma City were the Forward Oklahoma City agendas initiated by the OKC Chamber of Commerce. Each program has been aimed at business growth in OKC, and our burgeoning bio-tech sector is a result of that initiative. I am really excited to see when and what will be a part of Forward Oklahoma City IV.

It's important to note that both Tulsa and OKC Chambers of Commerce have forged a partnership to propel the growth of both cities, and it gives Oklahoma's city-dwelling population a more audible voice at the state capitol.

Remember that just because OKC has a government base doesn't mean the city's economic dynamics cannot be transformed. Didn't stop Austin, Texas from becoming a mecca in technology.

I also don't buy Oklahoma City's larger land area as the only reason for the city's population growth. Tulsa's population can easily grow as well with its smaller land area, but many neighborhoods are opposed to Tulsa building up. I do believe Oklahoma City, with all of the most recent activity, will continue its growth both proper and metro. An increase in that growth depends on how each city's government steers its leadership and chamber initiatives. Our city is still a work in progress, as we still have some serious issues that need to be addressed.

But Tulsa is not without hinderance either. Bell's is looking for a new home... outside Tulsa city limits. All of the riverfront development is also occuring in the suburbs, and the city council, airport board and police department continues to struggle internally. How Tulsa's new arena will help the city remains to be seen. It's an architectural icon, but 18,000 seats maximum capacity is iffy.

I am always behind OKC's growth, however, I prefer to take a wait and see approach for the sake of statewide growth.

[soonerguru]

Have any of you been to Tulsa lately? It is depressing. I go there on business all the time and there is absolutely NO MOMENTUM there for anything.

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.

Tulsa is resting on past laurels and it is becoming progressively more blue collar by the day. It has a terrible crime problem, is grossly divided along racial lines and lacks leadership at the city level.

Don't take my word for it. Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town. Tulsa has no real momentum right now except for a beautiful arena being built. The job growth figures you see are something of a mirage; how could it not grow when it had been losing jobs for years?

It's going to take a long time for Tulsa to be anywhere close to OKC -- and it will probably never happen.

[Swake2]

It USED to be more "entrepreneurial" and private sector than OKC. Today, that is not so much the case.

Other than Williams and H&P, Tulsa has hemmorhaged most of its important energy industry jobs. What's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?

Come on!

OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa has nothing to rival or approximate the research campus at PHF.

Semgroup, founded in 2000, 9th largest private company in the nation, almost as large as Devon and Cheasapeake combined. Sorry about that bubble.

[In_Tulsa]

soonerguru What Tulsa are you talking about.

[okcpulse]

Soonerguru is right as far as Tulsa's internal problems are concerned. My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart. And they've been in Tulsa for over 40 years.

[jbrown84]

Walk around their downtown during PEAK business hours. It is a depressing ghost town.

I have to completely agree with that statement. I've been there around 5:30 on a Saturday and there isn't a soul around. All the restaurants are closed. And then we came back around 10 to take pictures and it was filled with homeless people and there is no street lighting except on Boston Ave.

[Swake2]

Some research:

Oklahoma has 11 companies (or 12, more on that later) large enough to be on the Fortune 1000 (public companies) and Forbes Largest Private companies lists. Five are in OKC and six in Tulsa. The three largest are all in Tulsa.

Oneok, public, $12.8 billion in revenue
Williams, public, $12.6 billion in revenue
Semgroup, privately held, $12.57 billion in revenue
QuikTrip, privately held, $5.86 billion in revenue
Vanguard, public, $2.89 billion in revenue
Dollar-Thrifty, public, $1.52 in reveue

Devon, public, $9.19 billion in revenue
OG&E, public, $6.02 billion in revenue
Chesapeake Energy, public, $4.67 billion in revenue
Love’s Travel Stops, privately held, $2.21 billion in revenue
Hobby Lobby Stores, privately held, $1.35 billion in revenue

Tulsa’s total: $48.24 billion

OKC’s total: $23.44 billion

Samson Energy in Tulsa should also be on this list, but, they are private and chose not to report earnings any longer. The last time I could find they released numbers was in 1990 with revenues $4.35 billion, and energy prices have not exactly gone down. They are reportedly bigger than Williams, but no one really knows since they aren’t saying.

If Samson is really is as large or larger than Williams then Tulsa’s total would climb to over $60 billion to OKC’s $23.44. Oh, and with recent acquisitions and growth, BOK will probably climb onto this list for ’06 and will pass Hobby Lobby in revenue.

But then, Tulsa really is just dead, no growth anywhere. right?

You might want to checkout Semgroup’s new research campus by the way.

New Tulsa lab: SemGroup paves way for asphalt research

As for pure growth, Tulsa has two companies on the Fortune 100 fastest growing companies list to OKC’s one, and while Chesapeake is the fast growing company in the state (30th in the Nation), Unit Corp is right behind at 37th. (Oneok at 55 was the other company on the list)

[okcpulse]

Swake, this isn't a measuring contest to see who has the bigger pie. This thread is discussing the direction of both cities in the future. Our point is that OKC is far more private sector than in years past, especially compared to the 1990's. No one said Tulsa has lost its groove in the private sector. Yet, the activity in OKC is far more obvious, mostly since Chesapeake Energy continues adding office buildings to its campus and Devon keeps absorbing office space downtown. Sonic continues its national expansion, and Hertz has everything here except its national HQ, which rumor here in Houston says that relocation to OKC is not far off.

Tulsa still does not have a bio-tech research campus of OKC's caliber. The PHF Research Park keeps having to add buildings, because every single current building is leased. And it's not just one company. A dozen or so bio-tech companies occupy the campus. OKC's overall goal is to bridge the research park with St. Anthony's Hospital 1.5 miles west to create one large research and bio-science corridor, creating many high-paying research jobs.

OKC's companies have become far more involved with our community. And that is a good thing that cannot be argued. That wasn't very much the case before. Our chamber of commerce has been very agressive with growing OKC's private sector, and it's paying off. It's everyone's observation that the synergy in OKC is strong, and everytime I'm in Tulsa, all anyone can talk about is how much they enjoy the hills and trees. Any other discussion involves suburban development...

"Did you here what they are doing in Broken Arrow?" Or "Did you see the new such and such in Jenks?" Or how about "The new development in Owasso is amazing." The last remark about Tulsa I heard from a relative was "Bell's is moving out."

[Swake2]

Actually, it was said that "the city's falling apart" and "what's left? Quik Trip? Dollar Thrifty?" and that "OKC is kicking Tulsa's ass in every way imaginable. Chesapeake and Devon are growing faster than any company in the city of Tulsa" and "building things that we already have. Been there done that"

Sorry, but none of that is true and you just don't like seeing the facts over the private sector.

Truth is Tulsa's two new companies, Vanguard and Semgroup combined are larger than Chesapeake and Devon and Tulsa's private sector is, despite claims, much larger than OKCs and you are doing nothing to close that gap.

[okcpulse]

Sorry, but none of that is true and you just don't like seeing the facts over the private sector.

Truth is Tulsa's two new companies, Vanguard and Semgroup combined are larger than Chesapeake and Devon and Tulsa's private sector is, despite claims, much larger than OKCs and you are doing nothing to close that gap.

Can you back that up? Can you provide ten years worth of data to say that we are not closing that gap? One year is just not enough to argue progress in a city's private sector. Regardless of how Tulsa's companies are performing, I don't see them pitching in for a pro-team (OKC's corporate community is supporting TWO pro teams... Hornets and Sonics). I've been to, visited and immersed myself in Tulsa culture enough to know two facts of life about Tulsa...

The city seems to think they are more cultured than OKC which is a total laugh (art museums isn't culture... it's art. Culture is people), and the local citizens brag on the same qualities year after year... "We have Philbrook and Gilcrease Art Museums." I'll have to hand it to Tulsa, though, the Oklahoma Aquarium kicks ass... wait, that's Jenks.

In Oklahoma City, 13 years ago, we bragged on... well, nothing. Bricktown wasn't even a hub of nightlife. There was no Western. There was no corporate synergy. There was nothing. Tulsa had much more to brag on 13 years ago, but today, almost 2007, Tulsa's story hasn't changed much. Oklahoma City's has, and it's not just Bricktown. The Asian District, Western Avenue and Adventure District alone speaks volumes. Do you see where we are going with this?

[okcpulse]

The point here is long term growth. Personally, I see both cities thriving long term. BUt it turned into a debate because most people in Tulsa refuse to see their weak points, and that irritates me. You can't paint a pretty picture on a crappy canvas. Eventually the paint peels off.

[Swake2]

All I have done is present facts, real numbers and I never said that Tulsa does not have weak points.

In fact I have said nothing negative at all about OKC except that "doing nothing to close that gap" and I provided hard numbers to back that statement up.

Find a single negative statement I have made on this thread at all?

You are the ones with the issues, here are just some of the statements you all have made:

"You can't paint a pretty picture on a crappy canvas"

"The city seems to think they are more cultured than OKC which is a total laugh"

"last remark about Tulsa I heard from a relative was "Bell's is moving out." (Um, Bell's wasn't IN Tulsa)

"everytime I'm in Tulsa, all anyone can talk about is how much they enjoy the hills and trees"

"Have any of you been to Tulsa lately? It is depressing"

"It is a depressing ghost town"

"My relatives in Tulsa are even complaining the city's falling apart"

"What momentum does Tulsa have besides building things that we already have. Been there done that. Tell me something I don't know"




What are you so afraid of?

[okcpulse]

You are correct, Swake, you didn't say anything negative. You presented facts, and they are undisputable facts. I am just posting what I hear from family in Tulsa as a way for someone to explain Tulsa's problems, and they city is willing to do to address those issues for long term growth.

As far as the statement I made regarding Tulsa's idea of culture, that was just something I needed to get off my chest, because it's something I have heard a lot over the years.

There is nothing I am afraid of, just hoping that Tulsa would someday own up to its problems we all know is there.

[soonerguru]

I for one would love to see Tulsa come back in a big way. I have nothing against the city. As a kid and college student I used to love to visit Tulsa and found it very cosmopolitan in comparison to OKC.

So much has changed since then. Tulsa still has potential, but it seems to be in big trouble. I'm not sure how I feel about the Channels project; it seems like something that will be much lamer than it is portrayed to the citizens.

There is absolutely no energy or cohesion in Tulsa right now. I meet with corporate leaders there all the time and they say the same thing. There's almost a bunker mentality there, though, when it comes to OKC. They rip OKC mercilessly but are clueless about how much cooler it is to live here than it used to be -- and arguably cooler than Tulsa has been in some time.

Right now, OKC has more energy, a better downtown, a better music scene, a better restaurant scene, a much bigger population and much more momentum.