Top 100 Small Cities - GRIPE!

[solitude]

I'm especially interested to hear the thoughts of those of you who have an interest in city planning, etc. This particular annual list from Money gripes me to no end.

I was reading my issue of Money this afternoon and read the article that accompanies the full "Top 100 Small Cities in America" list in the ongoing 'Best Places To Live' series. Anybody who has subscribed to Money since they've been doing these detailed lists knows of the controversy that always comes with this particular list. I wanted to offer up my .02 and get your thoughts.

I hate the fact they include suburbs! I'm not out to offend our own suburbs here in the metro. I'm happy for Norman at #6, (Edmond is on the list too), but if I was looking for a "small city" I wouldn't think suburb. I don't think of suburbs as being truly cities 'by themselves' any more. Norman, more than many others on the list, at least has some pasture to drive through from Oklahoma City.

Why don't they truly rank small cities that thrive on their own economy and attributes? Say, just as an example, at least 45 miles from the border of a major metropolitan area.

Just look at some on the list:

Overland Park - Really? A small city of its own? Overland Park and Olathe are both on the list. They're both suburbs and OP is "Kansas City" to a lot of people in the KC metro. I hate a "city" like OP (as nice as it is in places) can truly be called a small city in a list like this

Irvine, CA - Nice place. But, really, Irvine is Los Angeles to me. I wouldn't think of it as a city in and of itself. It is, of course, no question. But it's a suburb!

Carrollton, Tx - Please. It's right in the middle of metro Dallas! Richardson is on the list! McKinney is on the list and a better case can be made there. But still.....where would McKinney be without DFW sprawl? Allen is on the list. Frisco is on the list! Four "small cities" in Collin County alone! The DFW metroplex has 10 of the top 100 "small cities" in the country! They're all suburbs!!! (Unless you want to make the argument for Denton, which is like Norman. You still have some pasture to get there from DFW, but not much and it's less and less all the time.)

It goes on and on like this - Bellevue, Wa is supposedly a "small city," as is Scottsdale, AZ, Sugar Land, TX, you get the idea.

There are a few exceptions - Ames, IA being one. But it's hard to look at that list and find a city that's more than 45 miles out of a major metro area. Well, scratch Ames - I just checked and it's only 34 miles from downtown Des Moines. Fargo, ND is on the list though - and it qualifies.

It's ridiculous though. Money should either do a list of the Top 100 Small Cities (that aren't a part of a major cities metropolitan area) or change the name of the current list to the "Top 100 Best Suburbs" and just get rid of the few exceptions that are not.

Thoughts?

[kevinpate]

solitude,

If it is of any comfort, the vast majority of folks I've come to know in Norman over the last 2+ decades do not consider Norman a burb of OKC. One can have an exciting and rewarding life and never slip beyond a Norman city limit sign. Does the city offer some things Norman lacks? Of course, just as Norman has some offerings that do not exist in OKC.

To each their own, but Norman a burb? nah, not from where I enjoy my sweet tea.

[OUGrad05]

solitude,

If it is of any comfort, the vast majority of folks I've come to know in Norman over the last 2+ decades do not consider Norman a burb of OKC. One can have an exciting and rewarding life and never slip beyond a Norman city limit sign. Does the city offer some things Norman lacks? Of course, just as Norman has some offerings that do not exist in OKC.

To each their own, but Norman a burb? nah, not from where I enjoy my sweet tea.

20 years ago it was easy to not consider norman a suburb. But just in the time I attended OU the building between OKC/Moore/Norman was astounding. It is most definately a suburb IMO.

[kcsooner85]

solitude,

If it is of any comfort, the vast majority of folks I've come to know in Norman over the last 2+ decades do not consider Norman a burb of OKC. One can have an exciting and rewarding life and never slip beyond a Norman city limit sign. Does the city offer some things Norman lacks? Of course, just as Norman has some offerings that do not exist in OKC.

To each their own, but Norman a burb? nah, not from where I enjoy my sweet tea.

I would have to agree with OUGrad, although I can understand Kevin's opinion as well. I just think in the short 5 years that I've lived here in OKC and Norman, the amount of growth and new building that has happened from 19th in Moore all the way down I-35 to even Tecumseh in Norman is amazing....I would say give it a few more years and it will be difficult to tell where Moore stops and Norman begins.

My point is, I would definitely consider Norman a suburb of OKC, however it is also a city that can obviously sustain on it's own, and has for a long time now.

[solitude]

As I said, Norman could be considered one of the few exceptions (though it doesn't meet my self-defined standard of 45 miles from a city). But consider the list as a whole; like all of those Collin County, TX names. No way can a case be made they're not suburbs and it's that way for most on the list.

I hope this doesn't become a "Is Norman a suburb?" thread. I'm really interested in what you think of when you think of a 'small city' - and how that relates to the Money magazine list.

[kcsooner85]

As I said, Norman could be considered one of the few exceptions (though it doesn't meet my self-defined standard of 45 miles from a city). But consider the list as a whole; like all of those Collin County, TX names. No way can a case be made they're not a suburb and it's that way for most on the list.

Solitude, I must agree with you though. I actually moved down here from Overland Park, and first off I definitely consider it a suburb of Kansas City, as is all of Johnson County, KS at that. While it is a beautiful city (but boring at many times), it wouldn't be what it is without being part of the metro. I find it hard to believe that OP would have the HQ of Sprint and Olathe have Garmin if they were not suburbs of KC, you know? I agree the list should look at actual small cities that can survive on their own, and not cities that thrive of being part of a large metropolitan area.

[HOT ROD]

ya, Norman is most definitely a suburb of OKC now, just as Bellevue is a suburb of Seattle. I think you're thinking small city as being only the Enids, Lawtons, and the Ponca City's of the nation.

But Solitude, both Norman and Edmond and Bellevue are big enough to stand on their own in many prominent areas without OKC or Seattle, be it population or suburban/secondary downtown or jobs or education. These cities probably wouldn't be AS big or important if they were alone - but you could live in either without HAVING to go into the big city.

This designation - small city/suburb, is how Norman and Bellevue are classified. But, if memory serves me correct - I think you might be confusing suburb with a much more 'common' image of BEDROOM SUBURB. there is a difference!

OKC has a LOT of bedroom suburbs, Warr Acres, Village, Mustang, Moore, MWC, Del City, Yukon, the E Ok County suburbs - these are ALL Bedroom Suburbs of OKC. You almost definitely have to go into OKC for jobs, shopping, and entertainment - if you reside in those suburbs. And when most people (obviously including you) think of suburbs - you think of bedroom suburbs, who couldn't survive without the big city.

But, there are other types of suburbs than just bedroom. Sattellite suburbs, extended suburbs, and small city suburbs - these are also suburbs, they just stand alone more.

I'd say Edmond and Norman and Shawnee are small city suburbs - they can stand alone more, Norman moreso than Edmond. These cities are big enough to have almost everything so you don't have to go into the big city but they are obviously dependent upon OKC, especially for top metropolitan amenities and attractions. Take a look at their CoC pages, and they 'reluctantly' must mention Oklahoma City.

I would call Guthrie and El Reno extended suburbs - they are far enough away from the big city to HAVE TO stand on their own for most things but you must venture in every now and then. A look at their CoC pages, and they may not mention OKC at all or they might mention in location only.

Then the final classification, sattellite suburbs, are even further out - but still are quite dependent on the big city for major amenities - like Airports, Hospitals, and other critical services. The only sattellite cities I can think of for OKC are Chickasha and Stillwater (even though Stillwater isn't YET classified in the CSA for OKC, I expect in 2010 it will be).

Im not too familiar with Tulsa, but I'd take a swag that its bedroom suburbs might be Sapulpa, Jenks, and Sand Springs. Extended Suburbs might be BA and Owasso. Sattellite suburbs are Bartlesville and Muskogee (Bartlesville is already considered part of the CSA, Musk is not yet).

Here in Seattle, we have LOTS of bedroom suburbs - too many to list, you guys wont know/recognize most of them. But Renton, which you guys do know, is considered a bedroom suburb. Extended suburbs would be Bellevue, Everett, and Kent.

Some consider Tacoma as a Sattellite suburb - but really, Tacoma stands on its own; and has its own suburbs. Tacoma is in no way dependent on Seattle but it's kind of the twin cities effect (minneapolis st paul, dallas ft worth, los angeles long beach, san fran oakland) where Tacoma is big and far enough to stand on its own but it is still a metropolitan partner to the bigger Seattle, therefore it is a sattellite suburb. Another Sattellite suburb would be our state capital, olympia (but is it a suburb of Tacoma [which most consider it since it has commuter bus to downtown Tacoma] or Seattle?

Anyways, if you consider other metropolitan areas, you see that Norman and Edmond definitely are suburbs of Oklahoma City. But, the way OKC is layed out, they are big enough to be small cities that can stand on their own for many things - so they want to be known as their own.

You get this distinction when you say where you're from. People from Norman dont say they're from OKC, nor do people from Edmond; just like people from Bellevue don't say they're from Seattle. They are extended suburbs that are small cities on their own, and prominent enough that people know of them on their own.

However, people from Yukon, MWC, and so on - they may say their suburb but almost always have to say - oh, from OKC or a suburb of OKC to clarify. Because of that, these places are bedroom suburbs.

[solitude]

Hot Rod, I don't know if the definition of suburb really has anything to do with the Money list. As far as a suburb being able to stand alone, truth be told, with most of them - we can never really know.

Two really egregious examples of my gripe would be Carrollton and Richardson, TX being on the list. Both of these suburbs are surrounded by more suburbs (or bedroom communities, whhatever you want to call them) -- that are even bigger than they are! Look at the map if you're not familiar with the DFW metroplex. To me, it completely ruins the value of a 'Top 100 List of Small Cities.'

[HOT ROD]

I do agree with you, the list should have designated a TRUE small city vs. suburb.

Of course, suburbs in major metropolitan areas are going to be attractive - but really, they are just part of the major city. Edmond and Norman are Oklahoma City.

I think that is your point and I agree.

I think a better look at small cities, if I saw that title - it would not have included suburbs of metro areas, but only stand alone small cities. I think this is your point, and I agree.

There is no way Enid or Lawton can compete against Edmond or Norman, and it is because they are suburbs of Oklahoma City (meaning they have everything or if not, then it's nearby in OKC)! So why include suburbs in a 'ranking' of small cities?

[solitude]

I do agree with you, the list should have designated a TRUE small city vs. suburb.

Of course, suburbs in major metropolitan areas are going to be attractive - but really, they are just part of the major city. Edmond and Norman are Oklahoma City.

I think that is your point and I agree.

I think a better look at small cities, if I saw that title - it would not have included suburbs of metro areas, but only stand alone small cities. I think this is your point, and I agree.

There is no way Enid or Lawton can compete against Edmond or Norman, and it is because they are suburbs of Oklahoma City (meaning they have everything or if not, then it's nearby in OKC)! So why include suburbs in a 'ranking' of small cities?

BINGO!

[Spartan]

Norman is not a suburb (and Norman is nothing close to a ****hole like Denton either, thank you very much!). Neither is Fort Collins a suburb. Madison, Ann Arbor, Ames, and other well-known college towns made the list. Seems like it favored college towns just as much as it favored suburbs, there are just a lot more suburbs than there are college towns.

It seems fairly easy to debate that college towns are the best places to settle down.

[solitude]

Norman is not a suburb (and Norman is nothing close to a ****hole like Denton either, thank you very much!). Neither is Fort Collins a suburb. Madison, Ann Arbor, Ames, and other well-known college towns made the list. Seems like it favored college towns just as much as it favored suburbs, there are just a lot more suburbs than there are college towns.

It seems fairly easy to debate that college towns are the best places to settle down.

Denton is hardly a **** hole. The worst part of town is driving through on I-35 but to call it that is just - weird. It's no Frisco or Plano, but it's no **** hole. According to the Census Bureau estimates in 2006, Denton is the 9th fastest growing city in the country (in cities w/ population of 100,000 or more). Money also named Denton the 58th "Best Place To Live In America."

I didn't say that every city on the list was a suburb. Most are and that was my point.

Norman's a great place! You may not think it's a suburb of OKC, but even a lot of people in Norman agree that, with the sprawl, that it is. It is a part of the Oklahoma City MSA, is it not? Whether it's a suburb or not - it's a great place.

I agree with you about college towns. They are great places to live - young and old alike.

[Doug Loudenback]

solitude,

If it is of any comfort, the vast majority of folks I've come to know in Norman over the last 2+ decades do not consider Norman a burb of OKC. One can have an exciting and rewarding life and never slip beyond a Norman city limit sign. Does the city offer some things Norman lacks? Of course, just as Norman has some offerings that do not exist in OKC.

To each their own, but Norman a burb? nah, not from where I enjoy my sweet tea.

That's kind of understandable, but when you consider the number of OKC residents who commute to Norman, and the number of Norman residents who commute to OKC (more coming to the north than to the south, I think), on a daily basis, it would seem that the "Norman" denial-of-identity is something akin to Tulsa not considering itself a part of Oklahoma (in "identity" ways) for many years, if not until this day. "Denial" is the word that comes to mind. It wasn't until after I graduated from high school in 1961 that Tulsa public schools even saw fit to become members of the statewide association of public schools. Its athletic and other scholastic programs did not even participate in statewide competition or playoffs. It was like Tulsa thought that it was above the rest of us, an island unto itself. It even had its wannabe state name, the state of "Sequoyah," a feature lacking for Norman (to its credit).

Norman never did that and, of course, was part of the April 1889 Land Run, along with Oklahoma City (then, just legally named "Oklahoma" without the "City" part). In my high school days, Norman was a part of the old-time "Boomer" high school conference, and I did my junior and senior high school years in Lawton. I'm a 1961 Lawton High School grad, and proud of it! Go Wolverines! A fierce rivalry was present (sometimes marked by serious post-game-football-fights) between those perennial powers, Lawton & Norman. In those days, Norman probably WAS a city not identified with and/or a part of Oklahoma City's overall identity. I-35 between Norman and Oklahoma City didn't even exist as it does today in those days ... it wasn't until the mid-or-late 1960s that the same roadway didn't have occasional stop signs and turnarounds on the highway between Okc & Norman, rather like the Northwest Expressway does in Okc today.

Today, Norman is a fine and unique part of the Oklahoma City metro. But, "a part," it is. In a much earlier period, "Capitol Hill" saw itself in the same way, and, indeed, in the early days, it was. And, please please don't tell me that you doubt that Norman's (indeed, Cleveland County's) population and commercial expansion is unrelated to its proximity to Oklahoma City and the blending of work forces who live in one but commute to the other.

The only thing about Norman that marks it as unique is that it has a reasonably adequate state university located there, and maybe a state mental hospital/sanitarium.
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Just kidding from an OSU grad! OU's a great school, but if something else is unique about Norman than OU for its identity (not including the road signs which were present as late as the 1950s which advised black people to be out of town by sundown), what is it? Lake Thunderbird?

[dismayed]

One thing that sets Norman apart is that it actually has a nightlife. Campus Corner is like a mini-Bricktown. There are tons of great restaurants/bars/pubs around town and several great places to see and hear live music. There are also lots of weird little out-of-the-box shops here that are unique to the city and are part of that whole college culture.

I also like the fact that Norman is also a town that has some fantastic art viewing opportunities, farmers markets, and museums. Sam Noble is one of the best of the best in my opinion.

To me, Norman really stands out as a city of its own because there is a lot of stuff to do here for fun other than just set around in a restaurant. I think that is why Norman ended up ranked so highly on the list.

[Doug Loudenback]

dismayed, again, and as I said, Norman has a reasonably adequate state university located there and the things that go with it.

[Kerry]

Solitude - I agree with you. If you are going to have a list about the 100 Best Small Cities then you should not be included in another cities MSA or CMSA. For arguement sake lets use the following rule:

Population must be between 50,000 and 250,000 and cannot be part of a larger city's MSA or CMSA.

With this rule in mind only 3 cities in Oklahoma qualify:
1. Enid
2. Lawton
3. Muskogee

Here are the cities in Florida that would qualify:
1. Tallahassee
2. Pensacola
3. Gainesville
4. Lakeland
5. Dayton Beach
6. Cape Coral
7. Orlando
8. Melbourne
9. Port St. Lucie
10. Sarasota


Orlando is an odd one in that it has a metro population over 1.8 million but has a city population of only 220,000. You can see the problems of even coming up with a list of cities and it might be hard to find 100.

[Spartan]

Denton is hardly a **** hole. The worst part of town is driving through on I-35 but to call it that is just - weird. It's no Frisco or Plano, but it's no **** hole. According to the Census Bureau estimates in 2006, Denton is the 9th fastest growing city in the country (in cities w/ population of 100,000 or more). Money also named Denton the 58th "Best Place To Live In America."

I didn't say that every city on the list was a suburb. Most are and that was my point.

Norman's a great place! You may not think it's a suburb of OKC, but even a lot of people in Norman agree that, with the sprawl, that it is. It is a part of the Oklahoma City MSA, is it not? Whether it's a suburb or not - it's a great place.

I agree with you about college towns. They are great places to live - young and old alike.

No I don't think of Norman as a suburb of OKC and that's where I lived. None of 'my crowd' in Norman thinks of Norman as a suburb of OKC. The University crowd in Norman all drive around with "Don't Edmond my Norman!" bumper stickers. In my opinion if you live in Norman, but west of I-35, you aren't even close to getting the full "Norman experience" that you can only get inside 24th Street.

[HOT ROD]

You get OKC TV stations dont you? You get OKC radio stations dont you? You have to go to Will Rogers World Airport for flights, dont you? For Federal Court, dont you have to go to Oklahoma City?

You have to go to Oklahoma City for the best in shopping and entertainment locally, don't you? Isn't Norman's bus system owned by Oklahoma City? Isn't Norman part of Oklahoma City's trade center? Isn't the NOAA headquarters there called Oklahoma City? Isn't Max Westheimer Airport part of Oklahoma City's section charts? Isn't there a greater exodous of workers into Oklahoma City whereas there is a flow of students from OKC into Norman? Isn't Norman's area code 405 - which is for the CSA of Oklahoma City? Would OU's memorial stadium be standing room only if Norman wasn't part of Oklahoma City?

The only independent things I can think of Norman of is - Norman supplies its own water and sewer. Other than that - Norman IS part of Oklahoma City. Norman is not a bedroom community suburb - I agree. But,

Like it or not - Norman is Oklahoma City's largest suburb!

[JWil]

One thing that sets Norman apart is that it actually has a nightlife. Campus Corner is like a mini-Bricktown. There are tons of great restaurants/bars/pubs around town and several great places to see and hear live music. There are also lots of weird little out-of-the-box shops here that are unique to the city and are part of that whole college culture.

I also like the fact that Norman is also a town that has some fantastic art viewing opportunities, farmers markets, and museums. Sam Noble is one of the best of the best in my opinion.

To me, Norman really stands out as a city of its own because there is a lot of stuff to do here for fun other than just set around in a restaurant. I think that is why Norman ended up ranked so highly on the list.

Uh, that has much more to do with the fact Norman has 25,000 18-24 types running around town.

Norman is most definitely a suburb of OKC. But like Yukon, Edmond and MWC, it has a different feel to it.

[HOT ROD]

I agree JWil, Norman does have a different feel to it.

It certainly does have it's own image and identity - very much thanks to the Media and OU Football dynasties!

But Bellevue, WA also has it's own identity. Yet it is still a suburb of Seattle.

Just like Norman is still a suburb of Oklahoma City.

[okcustu]

this is one sided everyone saying Edmond is a suburb has really intellectual and factual things to say while those in defense of Norman have incredibly stupid reasons like none of my friends think Norman is a suburb or that has a nightlife. Normanites? have a great amount of civic and simply exaggerate the city's indepence. Norman has a nightlife because it is a major college town and has a larger number of 18-25 than the other bedroom communities. In other states nightlife in a suburb is not uncommon Lakewood (Denver) has its own downtown but is very much a suburb

[dismayed]

dismayed, again, and as I said, Norman has a reasonably adequate state university located there and the things that go with it.

I'll forgive you for that. You went to OSU, so you don't know any better. ;-)

[dismayed]

I don't think that I disagree that Norman is a suburb, but it isn't dependent on OKC like other suburbs are.

I don't like it being implied that the Norman residents on the board have shallow arguments, so how about some hard data. For starters if you look at economic data and US Census data it paints a pretty independent picture for Norman (pop 97k as of 2002 data):

Manufacturing Payroll (Annual): $101.7 million
Manufacturing Revenue: $726.9 million
Wholesale Trade: $400 million
Retail Trade: $1.3 billion
Professional, Scientific, and Technical Services: $169.3 million
Administrative and Support Services: $231.8 million
Health Care: $435.6 million
Arts and Entertainment: $43.3 million
Food Services: $188.5 million


Compare to Edmond (pop. 70k as of 2002 data):

Manufacturing Payroll (Annual): $0 or N/A
Manufacturing Revenue: $0 or N/A
Wholesale Trade: $176.1 million
Retail Trade: $676.9 million
Professional, Scientific, and Technical Services: $127.4 million
Administrative and Support Services: $74.7 million
Health Care: $202.9 million
Arts and Entertainment: $17.0 million
Food Services: $109.4 million


I left off educational revenues as that seemed unfair since it dwarfed Edmond's by orders of magnitude.

The hard data seems to indicate to me a wide diversity of businesses that are generating tremendous local revenues. I don't disagree that Norman is part of the OKC MSA, but more so than any other suburb Norman can be and is an independent city.

[CCOKC]

I've always thought of Norman as a suburb. The biggest reason (totally unscientific, of course) is that I could always pick up the phone and make a local call to Norman.

[Spartan]

You have to go to Oklahoma City for the best in shopping and entertainment locally, don't you?

Nope, and furthermore, once we finish building the nation's 4th largest shopping project, OKC will be comin to us.

Isn't Norman's bus system owned by Oklahoma City?

It's owned by the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and the entity of Metro Transit.

Isn't the NOAA headquarters there called Oklahoma City?

Absolutely not.

Isn't there a greater exodous of workers into Oklahoma City whereas there is a flow of students from OKC into Norman?

There are actually a lot of OKC and Moore residents that work in Norman, a lot more than you would think. Norman's corporate scene is very advanced. And at 8:30 in the morning on I-35 in the north part of Norman, guess which side is always at a stand still? The southbound side entering Norman.

Isn't Norman's area code 405 - which is for the CSA of Oklahoma City?

So are Stillwater and Chickasha. In fact they're even in the trade region, as well as the CSA.

Would OU's memorial stadium be standing room only if Norman wasn't part of Oklahoma City?

No way to know. I know that College Station is the largest stadium in the Big XII.

The only independent things I can think of Norman of is - Norman supplies its own water and sewer.

Funny you bring that up, cuz we also supply OKC with a considerable portion of its drinking water. How's Lake Dirtybird taste for ya?