NFL in OKC

[Praedura]

I know, I know... the possibility of getting an NFL team in OKC is a gigantic longshot (of course, not long ago, the same was said about an NBA team...)

Anyway, just for amusement

NFL is the next logical step for OKC » Sports » The Enid News and Eagle, Enid, OK

[Snowman]

We have had this come up a few threads, i think this was the one most dedicated to it - Is there room for the NFL in Oklahoma?

[OKCDrummer77]

I just read that article via Facebook. The biggest flaw in the author's argument is that he compares the CITY populations of OKC to several NFL cities. I think it's well-established (on here at least) that it's the METRO population that matters, as well as the rule of thumb of 1M people per franchise.

I'm certainly not going to say that it'll never happen. As the metro continues to grow, it will eventually reach 2 million, but I'm not holding out hope that it happens in my lifetime.

[ThomPaine]

I don't see it happening in the next 25 years. Dallas, KC and St Louis are all pretty close. The local corporate level of sponsorship for the Thunder is unbelievable, but I don't know if there is enough to cover an NFL team as well. Because our market is so small, we would not garner the needed corporate support from other than local folks.

[SoonerDave]

I'm amazed at the number of intelligent folks who can't understand the simple financial math that explains that NFL franchisees are a monstrously larger albatross for a city compared to an NBA franchise. We are amazingly fortunate to have a group who can handle the Thunder in a small market, but the broader issues of city and state dollars and demographics just scream NO to this idea. We've got a great thing going with the Thunder. Let's not get greedy and ruin it.

[Achilleslastand]

Maybe the city could try something ala the green bay packers.......

The Packers are the only community-owned franchise in American professional sports major leagues.[22] Typically, a team is owned by one person, partnership, or corporate entity, i.e., a "team owner." The lack of a dominant owner has been stated as one of the reasons the Green Bay Packers have never been moved from the city of Green Bay, a city of only 102,313 people as of the 2000 census.[23] While the team is operated as a non-profit organization, technically it is a for-profit corporation because under Wisconsin law non-profit corporations cannot issue stock.

By comparison, the typical NFL city has a population in the millions or higher hundred-thousands. The Packers, however, have long had a large following throughout Wisconsin and parts of the Midwest; in fact, for decades, the Packers played four (one pre-season, three regular-season) home games each year in Milwaukee, first at the State Fair Park fairgrounds, then at Milwaukee County Stadium. The Packers did not move their entire home schedule to Green Bay until 1995. County Stadium's replacement, Miller Park, then being planned, was always intended to be a baseball-only stadium instead of a multipurpose stadium.

Based on the original "Articles of Incorporation for the (then) Green Bay Football Corporation" put into place in 1923, if the Packers franchise were to have been sold, after the payment of all expenses, any remaining money would go to the Sullivan Post of the American Legion in order to build "a proper soldier's memorial." This stipulation was enacted to ensure the club remained in Green Bay and that there could never be any financial enhancement for the shareholders. At the November 1997 annual meeting, shareholders voted to change the beneficiary from the Sullivan-Wallen Post to the Green Bay Packers Foundation, which makes donations to many charities and institutions throughout Wisconsin.

In 1950, the Packers held a stock sale to again raise money to support the team. In 1956, area voters approved the construction of a new city owned stadium. As with its predecessor, the new field was named City Stadium, but after the death of founder Curly Lambeau, the stadium was renamed Lambeau Field on September 11, 1965.

Another stock sale occurred late in 1997 and early in 1998. It added 105,989 new shareholders and raised over $24 million, money used for the Lambeau Field redevelopment project. Priced at $200 per share, fans bought 120,010 shares during the 17-week sale, which ended March 16, 1998. The fifth sale in the team's history, which will finance further renovations to Lambeau Field, began on December 6, 2011 and will run through February 29, 2012. During this sale, 250,000 shares will be offered at $250 per share.[24] Prior to the 2011 stock sale, there were 112,015 people, representing 4,750,934 shares, who could lay claim to a franchise ownership interest.[25] Shares of stock include voting rights, but the redemption price is minimal, no dividends are ever paid, the stock cannot appreciate in value (though private sales often exceed the face value of the stock), and stock ownership brings no season ticket privileges. While newly purchased shares can be given as gifts, once ownership is established, transfers are technically allowed only between immediate family members.[24] No shareholder may own over 200 shares, a safeguard to ensure that no individual can assume control of the club. To run the corporation, a board of directors is elected by the stockholders.

The team's elected president represents the Packers in NFL owners meetings, unless someone else is designated. During his time as coach, Vince Lombardi generally represented the team at league meetings in his role as general manager, except at owners-only meetings, where the team was represented by president Dominic Olejniczak.

Green Bay is the only team with this form of ownership structure in the NFL; such ownership is in direct violation of current league rules, which stipulate a limit of 32 owners of one team and one of those owners having a minimum 30% stake. However, the Packers corporation was grandfathered when the NFL's current ownership policy was established in the 1980s,[26] and are thus exempt. The Packers are also the only American major-league sports franchise to release its financial balance sheet every year.

Board of DirectorsFor more details on this topic, see Green Bay Packers Board of Directors.
Green Bay Packers, Inc., is governed by a seven-member Executive Committee, elected from a 45-member board of directors. The committee consists of a president, vice president, treasurer, secretary and three members-at-large. The president is the only officer to draw compensation; the rest of the committee is sitting "gratis." The committee directs corporate management, approves major capital expenditures, establishes broad policy and monitors management's performance in conducting the business and affairs of the corporation.

We could have a naming contest lead by our wonderful mayor mick. The Okc big leaguers would be a great name for a big league city also the bricktown ballers wouldnt be a bad name and appeal to the "urban" crowd.
Heck we could even have taco bell be the offical food of our new franchise......as long as its from the al fresca menu.

[Snowman]

As you say it is no longer possible to spread the number of owners as wide as it was for the packers. It will take around a billion dollars to buy either an existing team or expansion rights if that happens.

If we were to imagine being the co-expansion with LA, the stadium needs to happen soon, certainly sooner than a MAPS style build after having the money comes in could be done. So the only ways that it could even be built is paying a lot of interest on bonds, the owners paying a large portion of the half to one and a half billion that new stadiums seem to cost or a combination of both.

So first off our principle owner probably either needs to be Harold Hamm or David Green (preferably both would be involved), as some reports indicate Aubrey McClendon probably is not in a position to be even consider being the primary investor. With the remaining Oklahoma billionaires listed as living in Tulsa makes it unlikely they would put a team here verses Tulsa both for their proximity and less competition for sports dollars in Tulsa.

[Bunty]

Maybe it will have to happen the same way Oklahoma City got Thunder. An NFL team will need a stadium for a while after a disaster. It will be invited to use Pickens Stadium or the OU stadium whenever one is available. Both stadiums fill when the NFL plays, thereby leading to some NFL team wanting to transfer to OKC. Probably unlikely to ever happen, though.

[Snowman]

That strategy has not worked particularly well for San Antonio, after twenty years the only regular season games they have hosted were like half the Saints home games in 2005, all games were near capacity. Nor has a new stadium lured a basketball team to Kansas City. While OKC's performance with the Hornets helped grease the wheels with the other owners approving a move, the core part of the Thunder moving was a group of Oklahoma businessman bought the team.

[Teo9969]

Oklahoma should not go after a pro football team until we have a considerably stronger business base. Let's say that CHK remains a fortune 500 (seems unlikely though, at this point) and DVN will obviously be a fortune 500 company. Assuming CLR becomes a F-500 soon, then that leaves OKC with 3 F-500 companies (+ other local companies like AF and MF). I would think OKC will need at least 5 such companies and a stronger "portfolio" of mid-sized companies to adequately support an NFL team along with the NBA.

I don't know why people think there's no realistic shot. It would be difficult, but it's all about the growth of the OKC economy and population against the rest of the country. If we stay growing at 2% every year, especially if other cities (particularly midwest cities) continue to grow slowly or decline in population, then yeah, it's a lot more reasonable.

[MikeLucky]

To be a viable NFL market it really has nothing to do with fans... it's really about corporate support.

To give the proper perspective, OKC would essentially need 4-5 more TITLE sponsors. For example, the Thunder has Chesapeake, Devon, and I believe Midfirst. We would need probably 5 MORE similar size companies just to cover the corporate pull that an NFL team requires - ON TOP of the 3 we already have. And, that's not even touching a new stadium, infrastructure, etc...

As much as I love OKC and what we are doing, even the mere TALK of the NFL is nothing short of laughable... unfortunately.

[Teo9969]

To be a viable NFL market it really has nothing to do with fans... it's really about corporate support.

To give the proper perspective, OKC would essentially need 4-5 more TITLE sponsors. For example, the Thunder has Chesapeake, Devon, and I believe Midfirst. We would need probably 5 MORE similar size companies just to cover the corporate pull that an NFL team requires - ON TOP of the 3 we already have. And, that's not even touching a new stadium, infrastructure, etc...

As much as I love OKC and what we are doing, even the mere TALK of the NFL is nothing short of laughable... unfortunately.

...So you think it's "nothing short of laughable" that OKC could actually get 5 more major companies comparable to CHK, DVN, MF?

[SoonerDave]

Maybe it will have to happen the same way Oklahoma City got Thunder. An NFL team will need a stadium for a while after a disaster. It will be invited to use Pickens Stadium or the OU stadium whenever one is available. Both stadiums fill when the NFL plays, thereby leading to some NFL team wanting to transfer to OKC. Probably unlikely to ever happen, though.

There are several reasons why that scenario, while plausible, just won't happen.

First reason that comes to my mind is because, obviously, part of the NFL and college seasons overlap. On weekends with home games, you'd have to turn over either of those stadiums in a manner of hours - think of a night game in Norman, then a 12:00 prospective pro kickoff the next day. We're not just talking about cleaning it up, or removing chairbacks; we're talking about media production crews (tearing down one, installing another), ticket taking/logistics, credentials, security, concession supplies, the works - and that doesn't even begin to address the fact that you can't sell alcohol at either venue, which would be a non-starter in the NFL world.

After reading the horror stories that have become of municipal funding of facilities approaching $500M - $1B, the idea that OKC would undertake such a proposition genuinely scares me. Heck, I love football, and the idea of OKC hosting an NFL team is incredibly awesome, but I don't want to risk the financial health of the city for the next five (?) decades to pay for it. I normally loathe doom-and-gloom scenarios, but lots of cities are living this issue, so it isn't fictional. Cincinnati, I believe, has become a poster child for How Not To Fund A Stadium. Read the ugly details here.

Lots of basic things are telling us this just isn't a good idea, unless some T. Boone Pickens type decides to drop some of his personal fortune on an OKC stadium. And I still maintain there was a plan afoot twenty-plus years ago to build one alongside I-35 between OKC and Norman back when such things were comparatively cheap, but it fell through when the rumblings of something called MAPS started making the rounds, and the participants dried up...now, I think its simply a prohibitive expense that endangers our long-term financial health.

[MikeLucky]

...So you think it's "nothing short of laughable" that OKC could actually get 5 more major companies comparable to CHK, DVN, MF?

Within the next 15-20 years? Yes, it's laughable... MAYBE in 30 years it'll be a different story, but there's no way we get that many large companies to grow or move here anytime in the near future.

[OKCRT]

Within the next 15-20 years? Yes, it's laughable... MAYBE in 30 years it'll be a different story, but there's no way we get that many large companies to grow or move here anytime in the near future.

Hey yall forgot Mathis Bros.

[Teo9969]

Within the next 15-20 years? Yes, it's laughable... MAYBE in 30 years it'll be a different story, but there's no way we get that many large companies to grow or move here anytime in the near future.

I mean, I'm not saying it's happening tomorrow, and I think 30 years is about right.

However, consider that CLR has F-500 status in their sights and depending on the veracity of the Mystery Tower thread, if there is a decent relocation here of some out of town company, that could be 2/5. I imagine there are several other companies in town that could see the kind of growth over the next 20 years if things fall that right direction (particularly energy companies) to get to the level of an AF or MF.

A more important trend that people are not taking into account: Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, St. Louis are all growing incredibly slowly (<.5% / year) if at all. Cleveland and Detroit are actually net losing people. It's kind of scary for that part of that country, to be honest, that if one or two major companies decides to jump ship to a smaller city (like OKC, Austin, Charlotte) then you may see a surge in departure from some of these cities. I'm not saying that's a definite scenario, but it's at least possible and could bode well for the best Tier II/III cities going forward.

Even if the rust belt doesn't lose major companies...if they do not grow while other cities are, I would bet that an occasional sports team will come up for grabs. I mean...if Seattle, which has been growing at a great pace for awhile now, can lose it's beloved basketball team, I think it's plausible that the Bengals may not always be in Cincinnati.

[Hawk405359]

According to Forbes, the Jaguars were the NFL's least valuable franchise, at $770 million, while the Knicks were the NBA's most valuable franchise at at $655 million. So the worst and least profitable NFL team is still worth $100 million more than the most profitable NBA team.

So... just keep in mind that what we needed to get an NBA team (an unprecedented natural disaster) still really pales in comparison to what it'd take to get an NFL team, and there's zero chance of the league allowing another Green Bay in this day and age.

[BoulderSooner]

According to Forbes, the Jaguars were the NFL's least valuable franchise, at $770 million, while the Knicks were the NBA's most valuable franchise at at $655 million. So the worst and least profitable NFL team is still worth $100 million more than the most profitable NBA team.

So... just keep in mind that what we needed to get an NBA team (an unprecedented natural disaster) still really pales in comparison to what it'd take to get an NFL team, and there's zero chance of the league allowing another Green Bay in this day and age.

all we really need to get an NFL team is a Billionaire (multi or in reality a few of them) to buy a team and want to move it to OKC .. period that is all we need ..

[MikeLucky]

all we really need to get an NFL team is a Billionaire (multi or in reality a few of them) to buy a team and want to move it to OKC .. period that is all we need ..

Only if said billionaire wants to go broke very quickly. Say he/she was allowed to buy even the lowest value team in the league... Well, now that billionaire has paid $770 million and only has $330 million left. What about a facility? An NFL viable stadium would cost a MINIMUM of $500 million... and that might be pushing it... And, at this point we haven't even paid a secretary, much less a quarterback.

Not even close... This shouldn't even be a conversation.

[BoulderSooner]

Only if said billionaire wants to go broke very quickly. Say he/she was allowed to buy even the lowest value team in the league... Well, now that billionaire has paid $770 million and only has $330 million left. What about a facility? An NFL viable stadium would cost a MINIMUM of $500 million... and that might be pushing it... And, at this point we haven't even paid a secretary, much less a quarterback.

Not even close... This shouldn't even be a conversation.

which is why i said multi ... or multiple and if someone bought a team and then announced they were moving to okc ... i promise you OKC/ the state would find several 100 mil to build a stadium .. and as for year over year expenses ... well the NFL teams all make money ..

[Hawk405359]

all we really need to get an NFL team is a Billionaire (multi or in reality a few of them) to buy a team and want to move it to OKC .. period that is all we need ..

All we need, except for a couple hundred million dollar stadium (at least), the infrastructure to support it, and, of course, approval of the league, which would be quite skeptical. And you say rather non-chalantly that all we need is a billionaire who wants to move, considering that a billionaire who earned their money isn't just going to decide to move a team on a whim without any guarantee that the city could support it without bankrupting them, so we'd need that too. It's a far bigger endeavor than you're giving it credit for.

Remember, to a lot of the league, we still haven't proven that we can truly support an NBA team yet, we supported them when they were new and when they were good, but that's the easy part. We haven't had to support an awful team yet that doesn't have the new-team smell, which is actually something that Seattle wasn't terrible at (but since Key Arena was so small, even filling it up pretty full meant they were in the bottom 10 of attendance).

[MikeLucky]

which is why i said multi ... or multiple and if someone bought a team and then announced they were moving to okc ... i promise you OKC/ the state would find several 100 mil to build a stadium .. and as for year over year expenses ... well the NFL teams all make money ..

lol... yeah, that's why the Jaguars are going to probably be playing in London soon...

The fact is, to even keep the Thunder viable in OKC it's requiring heavy doses of shrewd planning and spending... and on top of that, it's also taking some of OKC's richest individuals making a sacrifice because having the team here is more important to them than it just making them richer.

As an example, Jacksonville has 88 luxury boxes at Everbank... And, it's part of the reason they aren't viable any longer. They need probably double that amount, AND companies willing to throw up the millions of dollars each year just so they can throw some of their clients in there to watch a crappy football team.

Chesapeake, Devon, and MidFirst are already papering the 'Peake to keep this team viable... so they would be no help with another sports franchise. So, where else in OKC are you going to find about 100 companies willing to throw about an average of $500,000 per year, that already aren't using their discretionary funds for the Thunder or OU football?

Again, shouldn't even be a conversation...

[BoulderSooner]

All we need, except for a couple hundred million dollar stadium (at least), the infrastructure to support it, and, of course, approval of the league, which would be quite skeptical. And you say rather non-chalantly that all we need is a billionaire who wants to move, considering that a billionaire who earned their money isn't just going to decide to move a team on a whim without any guarantee that the city could support it without bankrupting them, so we'd need that too. It's a far bigger endeavor than you're giving it credit for.

Remember, to a lot of the league, we still haven't proven that we can truly support an NBA team yet, we supported them when they were new and when they were good, but that's the easy part. We haven't had to support an awful team yet that doesn't have the new-team smell, which is actually something that Seattle wasn't terrible at (but since Key Arena was so small, even filling it up pretty full meant they were in the bottom 10 of attendance).

the NFL can not stop a team from moving to a different city see NFL v Al davis lawsuit ...


and second .. i know we are not getting a team (ever most likely) ... but NFL teams make money and if someone wanted to move to OKC i believe that OKC and the State would put 100's of mil into building a stadium ..

[BoulderSooner]

lol... yeah, that's why the Jaguars are going to probably be playing in London soon...

The fact is, to even keep the Thunder viable in OKC it's requiring heavy doses of shrewd planning and spending... and on top of that, it's also taking some of OKC's richest individuals making a sacrifice because having the team here is more important to them than it just making them richer.

As an example, Jacksonville has 88 luxury boxes at Everbank... And, it's part of the reason they aren't viable any longer. They need probably double that amount, AND companies willing to throw up the millions of dollars each year just so they can throw some of their clients in there to watch a crappy football team.

Chesapeake, Devon, and MidFirst are already papering the 'Peake to keep this team viable... so they would be no help with another sports franchise. So, where else in OKC are you going to find about 100 companies willing to throw about an average of $500,000 per year, that already aren't using their discretionary funds for the Thunder or OU football?

Again, shouldn't even be a conversation...

NFL teams make 65 mil a year in revenue in just National TV money (goes to 125mi in 2014) not counting ticket sales

the Jags made 25 mil last season being run poorly ..and losing lots of games ... in 14 they make 60 mil more for doing nothing differently .. and if they start winning money goes up much faster ...

also they are not going to move from Jax anytime soon .. they have the strongest lease in the league and goes to 2030 ..

and they just sold for 760 B ..

[Hawk405359]

the NFL can not stop a team from moving to a different city see NFL v Al davis lawsuit ...


and second .. i know we are not getting a team (ever most likely) ... but NFL teams make money and if someone wanted to move to OKC i believe that OKC and the State would put 100's of mil into building a stadium ..

Not in the legal sense, but as Al Davis learned, owners that try to move without the league's blessing don't get very far. He could move in name, but the league gave him the cold shoulder. He was forced to move back and tried to sue them again, losing pretty significantly. That's why the league can put restrictions and conditions on a team moving to LA now, because moving without the league is a poor prospect.

And while it's true that, before taxes and other obligations, most franchises do earn money (there's usually at least one exception every year), they don't typically earn money for the city/state, just the people who run the franchises. That's why there was a backlash in Seattle against building a new arena for the Sonics that wasn't at least half-funded by the owners, cities usually lose money on sports franchises. City's agree to bear some of the costs of building stadiums because they view it as valuable amenities, not because it benefits the bottom line for anyone other than the owners (and even then, it may not be enough to recoup the investment costs). If the state at large had to put up 600 million to build an NFL stadium, it'd be a pretty bad investment even if we could make a team of billionaires materialize out of thin air to buy a franchise.