Core to Shore sucks

[Spartan]

I don't really believe C2S sucks, it's just a real attention-getting title. But still, I'm starting to realize it has major flaws that, if realized, almost definitely would prevent OKC from becoming this grandiose vision of new urbanism. I wrote a LOT about it here:

A Downtown ontheRange: Closing argument on the C2S boulevard
The boulevard has to go..

A Downtown ontheRange: Questioning the layout of the C2S plan
The layout doesn't make sense..

A Downtown ontheRange: Alternative C2S vision...closer to 20/20
Offering a better alternative..

Here's my better alternative:


Key differences....

1. The boulevard doesn't hog the glory and threaten to be an even bigger flop than I.M. Pei.
2. The canal extension route, which I agree is needed, does not cut off downtown.
3. The convention center is moved to break up the cluster of super-block structures.
4. The park is a continuous flow of greenspace from the core to the shore.
5. I added a smaller pocket park to the west to build an upscale district around.
6. I included for historic preservation along SW 3rd Street to preserve some cool brick warehouses.
7. I call for Shields Boulevard being lowered, so that it doesn't become the next thing to blame after I-40 is moved.
8. A streetcar system similar to Jeff Bezdek's proposal is included in the C2S masterplan.
9. The neighborhoods make a lot more sense and flow better, so it feels more like a continuous area.

Anyone can do this. Just make a screenshot of a map of OKC, open it up in MS Paint, and let 'r rip. It took me an hour, and that was mostly putting thought into it and stuff. I'd like to invite others to weigh in creating their own C2S visions, because half will almost certainly be better than what we're going with at the moment, which is sheer idiocy in my opinion.

[gmwise]

Spartan dont hold back tell how you feel lol

[Platemaker]

Looks nice... couple of things:

Regatta Park is East of Lincoln so that needs to be adjusted
Please let's not use the word "commons." That isn't used outside the Northeast and is a little grasping.
Where did the name "Ellison" for the boulevard come from?

I wonder about the future of SW 3rd as well if C2S is done like planned. Anyone also know what might happen to some other historic buildings in the central park area? Namely the Film Exchange building on S. Robinson?

[Spartan]

1. Regatta Park is west of Byers Avenue.
2. I like Commons, what's wrong with it?
3. That's why we need Ralph Ellison Ave.
4. The Film Row District is W of downtown.

[okcustu]

Looks nice... couple of things:

Regatta Park is East of Lincoln so that needs to be adjusted
Please let's not use the word "commons." That isn't used outside the Northeast and is a little grasping.
Where did the name "Ellison" for the boulevard come from?

I wonder about the future of SW 3rd as well if C2S is done like planned. Anyone also know what might happen to some other historic buildings in the central park area? Namely the Film Exchange building on S. Robinson?

pleas tell me you know who Ralph Ellison is?!

i believe the Film Exchange building, and the other film related businesses are being developed now

[blangtang]

no matter what the problem is, a $1 Billion convention center is the solution. Get in line, or get outta the way!

[Urbanized]

There is already a Ralph Ellison Avenue, in Gatewood. It runs N to S past the Classen School of Advanced Studies.

[westsidesooner]

I havent had much of a chance to look at your plan Spartan, but at first glance I like the location of a park between the CC and boathouse row and the continuous greenspace from the core to the shore.

Im a twit when it comes to computers, but I may try your design plan using screenshots and MS paint. If it took you an hour it'l take me a week. lol

[Doug Loudenback]

Looks nice... couple of things:
* * *
Where did the name "Ellison" for the boulevard come from?

Platemaker, he was a Deep Deucian who rose to national prominence as an author. See Doug Dawgz Blog: Famous Deep Deucians.

Spartan, I'm proud of you for the Avenue/Boulevard's name, and I think what you've done is pretty cool. Keep it up.

[Platemaker]

pleas tell me you know who Ralph Ellison is?!

OK OK!!! I didn't realize it was in reference to him!

[Platemaker]

i believe the Film Exchange building, and the other film related businesses are being developed now

There are other film exchanges outside Film Row.

[Platemaker]

1. Regatta Park is west of Byers Avenue.

Well the Chesapeake boathouse is... that is part of Regatta Park... but the rest is east I promise... you are talking about were all the boasthouses are being built right? You have hotel and mixed use in those spots... and it isn't Byers until it crosses the river.

[Spartan]

I think we should name something better after Ralph Ellison.

For some reason I had this photographic memory of the ground for the OCU Boathouse being broken west of the Chesapeake and making one continuous Regatta Park. If you're right then obviously that should be changed, but honestly that's not a big deal because that neighborhood I would have accidentally stuck there is probably the one unimportant neighborhood. There isn't really any way to un-seclude that little pocket across from Byers/Lincoln.

And thanks Doug. I think I can live my entire life without ever hearing the term "Deep Deucian" again tho..ha ha

[Doug Loudenback]

Deep Deucian

[Oil Capital]

I don't really believe C2S sucks, it's just a real attention-getting title. But still, I'm starting to realize it has major flaws that, if realized, almost definitely would prevent OKC from becoming this grandiose vision of new urbanism. I wrote a LOT about it here:

A Downtown ontheRange: Closing argument on the C2S boulevard
The boulevard has to go..

A Downtown ontheRange: Questioning the layout of the C2S plan
The layout doesn't make sense..

A Downtown ontheRange: Alternative C2S vision...closer to 20/20
Offering a better alternative..

Here's my better alternative:


Key differences....

1. The boulevard doesn't hog the glory and threaten to be an even bigger flop than I.M. Pei.
2. The canal extension route, which I agree is needed, does not cut off downtown.
3. The convention center is moved to break up the cluster of super-block structures.
4. The park is a continuous flow of greenspace from the core to the shore.
5. I added a smaller pocket park to the west to build an upscale district around.
6. I included for historic preservation along SW 3rd Street to preserve some cool brick warehouses.
7. I call for Shields Boulevard being lowered, so that it doesn't become the next thing to blame after I-40 is moved.
8. A streetcar system similar to Jeff Bezdek's proposal is included in the C2S masterplan.
9. The neighborhoods make a lot more sense and flow better, so it feels more like a continuous area.

Anyone can do this. Just make a screenshot of a map of OKC, open it up in MS Paint, and let 'r rip. It took me an hour, and that was mostly putting thought into it and stuff. I'd like to invite others to weigh in creating their own C2S visions, because half will almost certainly be better than what we're going with at the moment, which is sheer idiocy in my opinion.

Spartan, you really should spend some time studying the materials available on the city's website regarding the process they went through in designing Core to Shore. And spend a few hours studying the actual plan:

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretosh...ePlan_2008.pdf

[OKCisOK4me]

There is already a Ralph Ellison Avenue, in Gatewood. It runs N to S past the Classen School of Advanced Studies.

That's okay. There can still be an Ellison Street. It's like Kelly Avenue. It's "Kelly" in Edmond and south of Memorial it's "Kelley"! I've always found that weird.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you really should spend some time studying the materials available on the city's website regarding the process they went through in designing Core to Shore. And spend a few hours studying the actual plan:

http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretosh...ePlan_2008.pdf

I know the process, I went to two of the public meetings in the Cox Convention Center back when I was still at OU. They brought in some consultants from Omaha, and it was evident they did not know Oklahoma City like a select few of us do. I would take a design planned by a collaboration of local enthusiasts over some out-of-town consultants that were paid, I think, $125,000 (that figure could be a little off because I forget).

But thanks for providing a link to everything that I am against. lol

Platemaker, I drove by the Regatta Park area and I can say that you were right. The OCU Boathouse did break ground just east of Byers/Lincoln, across the street from the Chesapeake Boathouse.

[lasomeday]

Oil Capital

It is a horrible layout. You can ask anyone with Planning or Landscape Architecture degrees that the choppy parks and the entire layout is horrible! It is choppy and not pedestrian or environmental friendly. If they do one continuous park like Spartan suggested it would have a ring of development that would be more feasible and could be a step by step process than the a park here a park there concept.

The initial core to shore is just a drawing, they weren't actual developable plans. Things have changed since then. The Mill is for sale. That is the perfect location for the convention center. Hotels could then be south of the Ford Center and west of the Convention center, even closer than the "hypethetical core to shore". Having one large park also allows for the street cars to wrap around it instead of zig zagging around the small parks.

[metro]

I've seen the newest renderings/models for C2S. More than likely, we'll get a string of 5 parks, now how many of them will be funded by MAPS 3 is the question. My guess is 1-2 of them.

[Platemaker]

metro: Where did you see that... and is it available to the public?

[metro]

No, it is not available to the public.

[Luke]

Who is in charge of designing C2S?

[LakeEffect]

Who is in charge of designing C2S?

Depends on what level you speak of - the City will design the parks. The design of new structures will be left to developers, using zoning and design guidelines as reference.

[andy157]

I've seen the newest renderings/models for C2S. More than likely, we'll get a string of 5 parks, now how many of them will be funded by MAPS 3 is the question. My guess is 1-2 of them.

This is great news. Does this mean the City will finally complete the String of Pearls river project which they started work on some 30 years ago? I hope they rebuild the horse stable pearl.

[Oil Capital]

Oil Capital

It is a horrible layout. You can ask anyone with Planning or Landscape Architecture degrees that the choppy parks and the entire layout is horrible! It is choppy and not pedestrian or environmental friendly.

Oh, Puhlease. Even if I believed it was true that all people with planning and landscape degrees think the entire layout is horrible, any time I see a statement to the effect that all urban planners agree . . . I think it's past time for a reminder of some past urban planner consensuses... e.g. pedestrian malls; clearing blocks of property to be replaced by downtown malls, etc (ala the IM Pei plan for downtown OKC).

(And fwiw, there were clearly a number of planning and landscape degreed people who worked on putting this plan together. I rather doubt they unanimously agree or that even a plurality of them agree that the entire layout is horrible.)