Will Rogers World Airport

[soondoc]

I saw a thread several years ago discussing OKC's chances of getting a hub and would like to discuss further. It is now apparent that several if not many companies are setting up shop here and we need many more flights. I think the airport is nice and a huge improvement from what it once was but it is so "minor" league and we need a major league airport. I really think it's important from a business standpoint to draw business here. It is our first impression to make on people here and where they form their first opinion of our city. Who do we need to contact and who can get this done to bring us up to big city status in that area and give us more options on flights as well.

On another note, I have always wondered why someone doesn't make a monster appoach to get FedEx to move some of their head quarters here. Memphis is an awful, violent city and I think OKC could make a deal that they could not match. I wish OKC would build it and make it such a sweet offer they can't refuse. It makes sense logistically because we are so centered to both coasts and it could be even more lucrative for the company. Ok, lets discuss and see if any of this is possible. Hey, I am a dreamer and want OKC become big time!

[catch22]

Mid sized cities that have hubs are a dying breed.

Cleveland, Salt Lake City, and St. Louis are about the only survivors of the many former airline hubs. Delta-Memphis will be exiting the picture very soon, getting smaller by the day-- literally. St Louis is a shadow of it's former self. And Salt Lake City is hanging around just because Delta needs it to make the West coast work.

If anything happens we could become a small focus city for an airline. Possibly Southwest adding some more flights to points instead of their hubs. But we can not expect an airline to establish a hub here overnight -- just will not happen.

[tucy]

Mid sized cities that have hubs are a dying breed.

Cleveland, Salt Lake City, and St. Louis are about the only survivors of the many former airline hubs. Delta-Memphis will be exiting the picture very soon, getting smaller by the day-- literally. St Louis is a shadow of it's former self. And Salt Lake City is hanging around just because Delta needs it to make the West coast work.

If anything happens we could become a small focus city for an airline. Possibly Southwest adding some more flights to points instead of their hubs. But we can not expect an airline to establish a hub here overnight -- just will not happen.

Quite right. Except that, as a hub, STL is less than a shadow of its former self. It was de-hubbed some time around 2004.

[catch22]

Quite right. Except that, as a hub, STL is less than a shadow of its former self. It was de-hubbed some time around 2004.

2008. I mention that it is a shadow, because Southwest does operate quite a large number of flights. Around 85 a day if I remember right.

[ljbab728]

There nothing wrong with discussing this even though it's been discussed here several times in the past. It might be better to consolidate it into one of the past Will Rogers threads, though, instead of starting a totally new one.

http://www.okctalk.com/transportatio...-2011-a-4.html

As far as who to approach about this, you need to start with the airlines. They just won't consider it unless it makes economic sense for them and at this time it absolutely won't happen. I seriously doubt that even major economic incentives from the city could entice one of them to put a hub here.

[bchris02]

For a mid-sized city, Charlotte probably has the best and busiest airport because they are a US Airways hub. If there is a merger with American Airlines I wonder how long that will last. OKC getting a hub would be next to impossible because this city has pretty much arrived at the party after everybody is starting to leave. The airline industry of the future will be consolidated with hubs in only a few major cities with regional flights to the surrounding midsized and small cities. For OKC to have a hub, this city would have needed to go after it 40 years ago when the airline industry was booming.

[venture]

I saw a thread several years ago discussing OKC's chances of getting a hub and would like to discuss further. It is now apparent that several if not many companies are setting up shop here and we need many more flights. I think the airport is nice and a huge improvement from what it once was but it is so "minor" league and we need a major league airport. I really think it's important from a business standpoint to draw business here. It is our first impression to make on people here and where they form their first opinion of our city. Who do we need to contact and who can get this done to bring us up to big city status in that area and give us more options on flights as well.

People need to get over this "big city" or "major league" complex that OKC seems to have. We are never going to be LA, NYC, Houston, etc. You say we need many more flights? Why? Passengers levels are still below where we were in 2006. Flights are not routinely going out at 85% or greater load factors. Our airport terminal is quite amazing for the city. It is not a minor league facility - there are plenty of smaller airports out there that more accurately fit that term. The current terminal as well also is not at capacity yet and still has room for additional service before an expansion would be needed.

The demand has to be there to increase air service. The demand is increasing, but only about 3-4% per year. That is easily handled by existing capacity or slight upgauging of aircraft on existing flights.

On another note, I have always wondered why someone doesn't make a monster appoach to get FedEx to move some of their head quarters here. Memphis is an awful, violent city and I think OKC could make a deal that they could not match. I wish OKC would build it and make it such a sweet offer they can't refuse. It makes sense logistically because we are so centered to both coasts and it could be even more lucrative for the company. Ok, lets discuss and see if any of this is possible. Hey, I am a dreamer and want OKC become big time!

FedEx is too invested in Memphis. Memphis would do everything in their power to match it. Plus you forget all of the additional contractors and associated facilities that support that mega hub. That is like asking UPS to leave Louisville...not going to happen. Air cargo in this country is very volatile and cargo hubs are closing instead of expanding. How is OKC any better logistically located than Memphis? They have similar major interstate connections - if not more. They have rail facilities right next to the airport. Don't forget the ability for barge traffic on the Mississippi which would be huge to freight forwarders to get to the ports on the Gulf and also upstream in MO, IL, IN, OH, IA, etc.

Hey I'm all for OKC growing, but we don't need a deserted massive big city airport that will leave the city in billions of dollars of debt.

2008. I mention that it is a shadow, because Southwest does operate quite a large number of flights. Around 85 a day if I remember right.

Looks like 91 departures as of September, which will go up with DCA coming online for them.

For a mid-sized city, Charlotte probably has the best and busiest airport because they are a US Airways hub. If there is a merger with American Airlines I wonder how long that will last. OKC getting a hub would be next to impossible because this city has pretty much arrived at the party after everybody is starting to leave. The airline industry of the future will be consolidated with hubs in only a few major cities with regional flights to the surrounding midsized and small cities. For OKC to have a hub, this city would have needed to go after it 40 years ago when the airline industry was booming.

CLT has the benefits of a massive banking presence. Should the US merger actually happen, I don't see CLT going away. It is a massive hub, nearly 600 daily departures and one of the biggest cash cows for US right now. It is also the only viable alternative to ATL in the Southeast (MIA is waaaay down there). There might be some cuts backs, but CLT will probably stay one of the larger hubs for US/AA going forward.

As far as OKC goes, I think our best bet for any enhancements to service will probably come from Southwest. We just picked up MDW which is doing very good. If the demand continues to increase there are other markets which could come into play. ATL, BNA, OAK, LAX, SAN, EWR, and SLC. Not saying those are likely markets, but most probable when you look at the WN network and cities similar to OKC (like AUS). Having a current offering of 23 daily flights and 9 nonstop markets isn't anything to sneeze at either. I don't see DL or UA doing anything more from OKC. AA/US if the merger happens could give us PHL and/or CLT. F9 is still on shaky ground so we could lose them. JetBlue has shown zero interest in coming to OKC.

[Just the facts]

Hey I'm all for OKC growing, but we don't need a deserted massive big city airport that will leave the city in billions of dollars of debt.

See Indianapolis.

[HangryHippo]

Why does our airport growth rate remain so low? I see plenty of other cities with passenger count percentages increases in the double digits, but ours remains stubbornly low. Is it because people drive to Dallas or Tulsa? Is it because we don't have a lot of corporate travel? Perhaps we just don't fly much?

I do wish JetBlue would come here if only so I could finally fly to JFK and Boston nonstop. How likely do you think it is that Southwest starts to expand their presence here? I've read where a lot of people think that once Dallas is free of Wright in 2014 that OKC's service will be reduced significantly.

[G.Walker]

The biggest downfall to WRWA is that its so close to DFW which is one the busiest and largest airports in the nation. Moreover, WRWA does not serve any international flights which also deters traffic and growth. Finally, Oklahoma City is not a "destination city" therefore incoming air traffic is not that great. With that being said, as OKC continues to grow in population and popularity, the already planned new East Concourse adding 9 gates, is likely to come to fruition. I wouldn't be surprised if the new East Concourse started construction within the next 5 years. People tend to forget that WRWA has undergone major renovations and expansions over last 10 years.

[CaptDave]

I honestly do not understand why so many people seem to have a problem with WRWA. It is compares favorably to other airports I have seen. (St Louis, Memphis, Louisville, Nashville, SLC, Orange County, etc.....) There are always a few things that could be improved but overall it is not too bad for a city our size. Service will follow demand - have we demonstrated sufficient demand yet? Doesn't appear to be the case with the prevalence of small regional jets instead of larger RJ's or 737/717/MD80's. When the MD80's and 737 become the "small" planes, I think that is an indicator of demand - from a layman's perspective at least. But G. Walker may be right - have we already forgotten the 5+ years of construction at WRWA?

[Bill Robertson]

Why does our airport growth rate remain so low? I see plenty of other cities with passenger count percentages increases in the double digits, but ours remains stubbornly low. Is it because people drive to Dallas or Tulsa? Is it because we don't have a lot of corporate travel? Perhaps we just don't fly much?

I do wish JetBlue would come here if only so I could finally fly to JFK and Boston nonstop. How likely do you think it is that Southwest starts to expand their presence here? I've read where a lot of people think that once Dallas is free of Wright in 2014 that OKC's service will be reduced significantly.

We go to St Louis at least a couple of times a year. We used to fly but started driving last year. From door to door it takes about the same time to drive. And driving there's no baggage checking, no delayed flights, no super-size guy in the seat next to me or my wife and my knees don't hit the seat in front of me. So pretty much anywhere that distance or closer we'd rather drive.

[catch22]

Demand is pretty strong right now. This year will likely be the record year for passenger traffic at WRWA. Any additional expansion will come from increased frequency to current markets and/or more mainline. United is already in the process of increasing mainline in OKC. Expect more of that in the coming months. United will have around 26 daily flights this coming summer and service to every domestic hub. There are not many airports in the United system that have this network access. I wouldn't be surprised to see more United flights to existing markets and increased mainline to Denver Houston and Chicago.

I can see Southwest expanding their presence also. I bet we will also see more Delta mainline in 2013. Year over year since 2009 they have added one mainline flight. Went from 1 to 2 to 3 and if that trend continues we will get 4 this coming year.

I don't see the doom and gloom venture does because really after United takes gate 8, there will only be 2 unleaded gates. (Gate 1 will not be leased; that is the city's gate)
I could see within 5 years the 3 gate extension of the East concourse would be necessary.

[venture]

Why does our airport growth rate remain so low? I see plenty of other cities with passenger count percentages increases in the double digits, but ours remains stubbornly low. Is it because people drive to Dallas or Tulsa? Is it because we don't have a lot of corporate travel? Perhaps we just don't fly much?

I do wish JetBlue would come here if only so I could finally fly to JFK and Boston nonstop. How likely do you think it is that Southwest starts to expand their presence here? I've read where a lot of people think that once Dallas is free of Wright in 2014 that OKC's service will be reduced significantly.

Tulsa hasn't really been exploding in growth, so I doubt there is much pull there. DFW maybe some, but probably not a ton. When people talk about leakage in OKC to DFW sometimes I have to chuckle. Leakage from OKC is probably nothing compared to what cities like RFD, FWA, LAN, TOL, FNT, YNG, MDT, ABE, and such experience to the near by hubs of ORD, DTW, CLE, PHL, and EWR.

I don't see JetBlue coming, but it would be nice. WN is dedicated the market with around 800 employees here. Will there be an impact on local traffic after Wright is gone? Probably. I could see WN cutting back a bit on DAL nonstops which could impact other services, mainly Denver. However most of the markets, including Denver, are pretty self sufficient right now. WN has 3 gates here right now which gives them room to go up probably another 10 flights easily. We'll just have to wait and see how things work out once the AirTran cities are brought into the network completely.

The biggest downfall to WRWA is that its so close to DFW which is one the busiest and largest airports in the nation. Moreover, WRWA does not serve any international flights which also deters traffic and growth. Finally, Oklahoma City is not a "destination city" therefore incoming air traffic is not that great. With that being said, as OKC continues to grow in population and popularity, the already planned new East Concourse adding 9 gates, is likely to come to fruition. I wouldn't be surprised if the new East Concourse started construction within the next 5 years. People tend to forget that WRWA has undergone major renovations and expansions over last 10 years.

International traffic is not going to be the main driver for an airport to do exceptionally well. The problem is what business, high yield international traffic exists in OKC? Not really enough to warrant anyone to drop a plane in here. The new East Concourse would add a lot of capacity and probably meet any demands for the next 20-30 years the city will need. Anything international will probably be something like Volaris to Mexico.

I honestly do not understand why so many people seem to have a problem with WRWA. It is compares favorably to other airports I have seen. (St Louis, Memphis, Louisville, Nashville, SLC, Orange County, etc.....) There are always a few things that could be improved but overall it is not too bad for a city our size. Service will follow demand - have we demonstrated sufficient demand yet? Doesn't appear to be the case with the prevalence of small regional jets instead of larger RJ's or 737/717/MD80's. When the MD80's and 737 become the "small" planes, I think that is an indicator of demand - from a layman's perspective at least. But G. Walker may be right - have we already forgotten the 5+ years of construction at WRWA?

Yeah the amount of small jets here gives a lot of opportunity for up-gauging flights instead of adding more frequency.

Demand is pretty strong right now. This year will likely be the record year for passenger traffic at WRWA. Any additional expansion will come from increased frequency to current markets and/or more mainline. United is already in the process of increasing mainline in OKC. Expect more of that in the coming months. United will have around 26 daily flights this coming summer and service to every domestic hub. There are not many airports in the United system that have this network access. I wouldn't be surprised to see more United flights to existing markets and increased mainline to Denver Houston and Chicago.

I agree with the part I bolded. I'm not sure if more frequency is really in cards right now.

I can see Southwest expanding their presence also. I bet we will also see more Delta mainline in 2013. Year over year since 2009 they have added one mainline flight. Went from 1 to 2 to 3 and if that trend continues we will get 4 this coming year.

I don't see the doom and gloom venture does because really after United takes gate 8, there will only be 2 unleaded gates. (Gate 1 will not be leased; that is the city's gate)

I could see within 5 years the 3 gate extension of the East concourse would be necessary.

I'm not all gloom and doom. I just don't see OKC being a viable large scale air travel market that some are wanting. OKC really is not a major destination. It is benefited by being only 1 of 3 commercial airports in Oklahoma with existing service. Could there be more service in the cards? Sure. I just don't see the demand for a big expansion right now.

[catch22]

You are correct some cities are maxed out on frequency. But I would bet some of our 1x and 2x daily routes could see some more flights. SFO especially as it is performing quite well.

I doubt we will be a huge market anytime soon, but there are still many routes that will be viable for increased service as the city grows over the next 5 years. If you look at a still snapshot, there doesn't appear to be much room for growth. But if you take into account the city's growth and extrapolate it over several years you will see some expansion opportunities that could be viable.

[adaniel]

I honestly do not understand why so many people seem to have a problem with WRWA. It is compares favorably to other airports I have seen. (St Louis, Memphis, Louisville, Nashville, SLC, Orange County, etc.....) There are always a few things that could be improved but overall it is not too bad for a city our size. Service will follow demand - have we demonstrated sufficient demand yet? Doesn't appear to be the case with the prevalence of small regional jets instead of larger RJ's or 737/717/MD80's. When the MD80's and 737 become the "small" planes, I think that is an indicator of demand - from a layman's perspective at least. But G. Walker may be right - have we already forgotten the 5+ years of construction at WRWA?

I really don't get the hate for Will Rogers either. The way some people describe it you would think the place is a dump. The airport is one of the nicer small airports in the country and our passenger counts are pretty consistent with non-tourist non-hub airports for cities of our size. Also, passenger counts are growing and have been for some time; Tulsa's airport hit a 10 year low in traffic this past year even though it is supposed to be so much cheaper and easier to fly out of. I have never seen any sort of official study done, but I don't think "leakage" to DFW is as near the problem it is advertised. I honestly know of two people who have driven to Dallas to fly out (both were international destinations) in the entire time I've lived in OK.

I definitely think more West Coast destinations are possible, especially if in-migration from CA to OKC continues at its current pace. But with a lot of things its just going need some time. If we can keep up the growth I'm sure more service will come. But like the IKEA rumor that likes to surface on here, this hub talk really needs to be put to rest. That ship sailed a long time ago (about the time the Gipper deregulated the industry) and we can achieve more flights without hub status anyway.

[Kokopelli]

Would have to agree;

-we missed the hub-bus many moons ago but even if we had caught it then we also could be losing it now.

-WRWA if a dandy fine airport, have been in 125 U.S. airports and would vote ours in the Top 10 for in it’s size class.

-future growth for WRWA will be organically grown.


Question for the insider experts?

How is the OKC - CLE route doing?

[catch22]

It has not begun. It will begin Feb 14.

[venture]

I really don't get the hate for Will Rogers either. The way some people describe it you would think the place is a dump. The airport is one of the nicer small airports in the country and our passenger counts are pretty consistent with non-tourist non-hub airports for cities of our size. Also, passenger counts are growing and have been for some time; Tulsa's airport hit a 10 year low in traffic this past year even though it is supposed to be so much cheaper and easier to fly out of. I have never seen any sort of official study done, but I don't think "leakage" to DFW is as near the problem it is advertised. I honestly know of two people who have driven to Dallas to fly out (both were international destinations) in the entire time I've lived in OK.

I definitely think more West Coast destinations are possible, especially if in-migration from CA to OKC continues at its current pace. But with a lot of things its just going need some time. If we can keep up the growth I'm sure more service will come. But like the IKEA rumor that likes to surface on here, this hub talk really needs to be put to rest. That ship sailed a long time ago (about the time the Gipper deregulated the industry) and we can achieve more flights without hub status anyway.

I think the perception here needs to change a bit, OKC is not a small airport. The rest I agree with you.

However get away from OKC and go to the medium cities in the Great Lakes and Northeast. Most of those airports are going to have between 5 and 10 gates and that is it. Some are lucky to have more than a couple jet bridges.

[G.Walker]

WRWA's size is great for OKC and surrounding areas, and I believe it will expand within the next few years, adding the East Concourse. However, people tend to get a complex after being to DFW International, which is a city in itself. Though I know we will never have a Skylink, a 152 gates, and mid-rise hotels embedded in the airport, I think we need to grow on what we have. Simple things that WRWA needs to have is free Wi-Fi all the time (not just for 20 minutes), at most airports free Wi-Fi is a given. It also wouldn't hurt for them to go through a branding overhaul, with a new logo, tag-line, and color scheme, and brand that throughout the website and airport. Before the NBA came here, OKC really didn't have a modern identity. However, now it seems that the OKC's color is Thunder blue, and industry rides of energy and aerospace. They should take those characteristics from the city and build a brand from it. A city's airport is the first impression for people visiting the city for the first time, so why not make a good first impression? I would also like to see a nice mid sized hotel attached to the airport, that would work wonders for the airport. Finally, one thing they definitely need to change is not having security check-in in the same area as passengers exiting the terminal, it can be very confusing and crowded at times.

[G.Walker]

Charlotte is a prime expample of good universal branding for the city, coincidence? no, branding?, yes:

[venture]

Finally, one thing they definitely need to change is not having security check-in in the same area as passengers exiting the terminal, it can be very confusing and crowded at times.

That is already going to be fixed and is discussed in the Commercial Aviation thread.

[soondoc]

I agree with the fact that we have a nice airport. It is true that the first impression people have of our city is our airport. We need to make it first class and have an identity because lets get serious about getting more companies relocated here. If they think negatively right off the bat or that we are some rinky dink place, it can and will make a difference. They DO also consider travel options and flights to other areas of the country. If OKC can offer that it can be a deal breaker. If we can't get a hub, we need to expand the terminal, get more flights and give the appearance of a bustling airport to match our now bustling city. I really do believe that symbiotic relationship can make a difference in a company wanting to locate here. It is time to stop think small and shoot for the stars. It is our time to shine because we were stagnant for way too many years.

[venture]

I agree with the fact that we have a nice airport. It is true that the first impression people have of our city is our airport. We need to make it first class and have an identity because lets get serious about getting more companies relocated here. If they think negatively right off the bat or that we are some rinky dink place, it can and will make a difference. They DO also consider travel options and flights to other areas of the country. If OKC can offer that it can be a deal breaker. If we can't get a hub, we need to expand the terminal, get more flights and give the appearance of a bustling airport to match our now bustling city. I really do believe that symbiotic relationship can make a difference in a company wanting to locate here. It is time to stop think small and shoot for the stars. It is our time to shine because we were stagnant for way too many years.

Have you even read all the other posts here and in the Air Service thread? I'll address you post point by point.

1) Airport is great and much nicer than many medium sized cities.
2) The airport, I feel, gives a great first impression. More improvements are coming to make it even better.
3) How has the city not been serious about getting more businesses here? Continental Resources, Boeing, etc.
4) There is going to be a stigma with the appearance of Oklahoma and Oklahoma City. The NBA I think is helping a ton with that as well as the strong energy sector.
5) Travel options to other cities? We have 22 nonstop markets from OKC. That is pretty damn good.
6) The city already connections most major metro areas and hubs. We do have some growth options when it comes to California, the Pac Northwest, and the Southeast. However, Florida has always had dreadful performance from OKC through the years.
7) We aren't going to get a hub. Airlines aren't building new hubs. They are too expensive and the industry is still in consolidation mode (WN/FL and AA/US). The terminal has expansion plans to add another 4-9 gates in the East Concourse. Which is good considering we have essentially 2 gates unleased right now, even though existing airlines could definitely cram more flights into the ones they do have. A bigger terminal does not equal more flights. We aren't turning away flights right now due to no room. You have to keep in mind that Oklahoma itself isn't an extremely wealthy state with a lot of high needs for air travel. The airport traffic is growing and airlines have been adding capacity that is appropriate. If you add a ton of capacity in over night you risk trashing yields and weakening the strength airlines have here.
8) Don't disagree...I think that is needed anywhere.
9) OKC isn't really a dull bulb right now. The job market is excellent. The city isn't in a financial crisis. The city is shining and will continue to do so as long as it plays smart and doesn't try to grow up too fast.

I guess at the end of the day, I'm still a little unclear on what exactly it is you think OKC should have right now. Keeping this focused on the airport and air service, the level of service is adequate for what we need right now. As new opportunities arise, the airlines will follow. Much like United bringing back service to Cleveland next year due to the oil/gas productions in Eastern Ohio.

[BG918]

I think OKC gets a Charlotte nonstop if AA merges with USAir since Charlotte would likely be their new southeast hub. AA would maintain current nonstops to DFW, LAX and ORD. If a combined AA/USAir builds up its Philadelphia base that could be a future route as well.

Southwest could add a nonstop to Atlanta to compete directly with Delta there where they are expanding since they merged with AirTran.

I could maybe see Delta starting service to JFK supplementing the only existing service to New York via one daily nonstop to Newark on United. Or jetBlue starting the same service.

Outside of that not sure where else really makes sense as a new route. Longshots include Seattle on Alaska, San Diego/Austin/Nashville on Southwest and Orlando on Delta.