Is North Okc losing the battle to the South Okc suburbs?

[kwash]

ok so i moved to okc 10 yrs ago and everyone said the northside was where it was at, good schools good neighborhoods good retail and all the money was up north. fast foward to late 2010 and who thinks the northside has been completly ripped apart by south okc( mostly moore). I remember people saying putnam city schools were awesome 10yrs ago, now all i hear is PC schools are a joke and filled by nothing but hood kids now. also people raved about penn square and quail springs mall, but now you go to quail its nothing but hood kids and police everywhere, penn square has its issue now too. the walmart behind penn square has the worst theft in okc by numbers. I was gonna move to a house near expressway and rockwell and a realtor told me no no its all gangs over there. dont even get me started on what realtors say about the 122nd/penn area wow its bad. I mean whats happened to the northside, no new businesses, moore has the premiere theatre now with the warren. there really isnt even a stand alone theatre on the northside. amc quail use to be nice but that place should be renamed amc hoodquail, and the theatre in penn square is a joke. and now this, moore is getting a dave and busters soon, not to mention the buffalo wild wings in moore is one of their busiest most profitable stores in the country. and talk about moore schools, everyone says moore schools is now by far the premiere schools in the state. im not moving to the southside/moore area, im just simply asking okc residents, what has happened to the glitz and glamour or northside okc......

[Steve]

Nope. The city is losing the battle of seeing sprawl to the far east, far west, far south and far north. I can point out growing affluent areas on each fringe. And I can show how once nice areas like NW 122 and Penn exist also along I-240, etc. What was sprawl in the 1970s, as you point out on the north side, also exists on the south side. It's not good for anybody. I've always felt the "glitz and glamour" as you call it of the northside was always overstated, and that the southside leadership itself sometimes tended to overplay the "oh, we're just poor old southsiders" bit when there was always some very nice wealthy areas going back to the 1970s. You are, btw, somewhat exaggerating conditions on the northside ...

[Kerry]

Nope. The city is losing the battle of seeing sprawl to the far east, far west, far south and far north. I can point out growing affluent areas on each fringe.

Now if we could just get growth in the core.

[adaniel]

Steve summed it up nicely. Everthing you described is happening in all older suburbs, in all directions. First off, I think you are stretching some things. "Hoodquail"? Have you been to Crossroads? 122nd and Penn is no worse than 240. Both have way too many apartment complexes that were built in the 70's and look like crap.And you are the first person to describe the Penn Square area as going downhill. Yeah the Belle Isle walmart isn't pretty. But please show me a walmart supercenter that is a mecca of high-end shopping. And gangs? Obviously you have never heard of the Southside Locos.

Moore and the Southside (and even MWC) has definitely cleaned itself up. One must really admire what the city of Moore did after May 3, 1999. Also, its become really hard to get a new home in North OKC/Edmond under $200K, whereas the southern areas are much more affordable. But it hasn't done anything different than when the NW sides of town were developed in the 70s and 80s. So in 10 years will we be talking about how "hood" S. 19th street is? Also something to consider. North of the river (not counting downtown), the large private employers include Chesapeake, MidFirst, and numerous accounting firms, oil and gas producers, lawyers, etc. along NW Expressway and Memorial office corridors. I can't really think of any large cluster of white collar employment on that side of town..maybe Integris or Dell?

[flintysooner]

I recently drove through my old NW neighborhood and was pretty disappointed in the general upkeep of the area. I don't really understand why so many of the individual properties have been so poorly maintained.

In addition to that I noticed the tremendous increase in the number of people and businesses especially compared to when I moved there in 1973 but even when I left in about 1988.

That's a significant contrast especially to the Moore area and even the I-240 corridor.

Moore could possibly double in population over the next 50 years I think I've read. That would mean going from 50,000 to 100,000 in about 22 sq miles. So the current density is roughly 2500 per sq mile. I looked at one zip code in northwest Oklahoma City and the density was about 3600 per sq mile. Zip codes in far southwest Oklahoma City are much lower but it isn't clear to me exactly how the density can increase significantly unless there are a lot of new apartments built somewhere.

[bradzilla]

we recently moved from edmond(well the okc area that people refer to as edmond near the kilpatrick and penn / western) to out east near choctaw area - 100 percent satisfied with our decision. but i think most of your concern are the normal transitions a city this size goes through. the bad thing is that most people, including myself dont have any major reservations about driving 30+ minutes to work so it encourages people to move to the fringes.

for the record when i was in my early 20's i lived in moore, I actually thought moore was a better part of town compared to when we lived in edmond.

[bradzilla]

I can't really think of any large cluster of white collar employment on that side of town..maybe Integris or Dell?

You have a large number of fairly paid government employees and contractors in the south side at tinker, faa, etc.

[flintysooner]

I've been told that there is a great deal of wealth in south Oklahoma City eligible for investment. One reason for that I was told was that there was a significant number of small business owners and entrepreneurs. I don't know if it is actually true or not but I do know there are a lot of contractors.

The other day I was in the Capitol Hill area and noticed a new, large home being built in the midst of a neighborhood of much smaller houses. I was told the owner was a contractor of some kind and lived in the area around his family and friends. He could afford a new home but decided to stay put and build there.

[Kerry]

I recently drove through my old NW neighborhood and was pretty disappointed in the general upkeep of the area. I don't really understand why so many of the individual properties have been so poorly maintained.

I think this is pretty common. I went back to our old neighborhood in Tampa after being gone about 5 years and it looked like a bomb went off. Grass wasn't mowed, sidewalks not edges, trees not trimmed, car parked in grass, sheets for curtains. I think the big thing was that when we lived there everone was the original owners so we took a little pride in our new homes. As homes sold the second and third generation owners didn't seem to care as much. For instance, our formal dinning room was filled with formal cherry Queen Anne furniture. The couple that bought our house furnished the room with a pool table. We also noticed that many of the second and their generation owners were renting out their homes.

We eneded up moving to another "in" subdivision. Guess what, people start selling and the pattern is being repeated. Thanks goodness we moved way up the price ladder because at least we get a better class of renter (no pool tables in the living room). Our next home will either be a rural fortress, complete with mote, or in an established urban neighborhood. No more subdivision for us. I would prefer to live in walking distance of things we want to do and along a street car line. My wife always say she doesn't want to live in an urban core environment but every time she goes to her sister's place in downtown Chicago she goes on for days about she walked to get dinner, stopped for lunch at a hole in the wall pizza place, and window shopped on State St. For some reason she can't put two and two together.

[PennyQuilts]

May and Britton used to be a good area not that long ago. When the grocery store at that intersection was Albertsons (first husband was in the grocery business) it was the one of all the Albertsons in the area that sold the good cuts of meats and the better steaks, with white, upper middle class women who showed up to shop on their way home from working out, or while out running errands to get ready for the weekend party (stay at home relatively young women - big time evidence of well heeled husbands). I could barely believe my eyes when I drove by there about a year ago after having been gone ten years. It was a dump with pawn shops, discount stores and general disrepair. I'd noticed from following the news while I was gone that a lot of crime was popping up on the north central side. That used to be an area that people were proud to live. Even if they didn't end up buying a big house on some land at some point (or Nichols Hills or even Quail Creek) it was nothing be be embarassed about. I've driven through there for old time's sake and kept right on driving with the doors locked. A lot of those places have gone to filthy dumps. It is a crying shame.

Back when I was teaching (Putnam City schools), I was at a nice school. This was twenty years ago. I loved it. Sweet kids, nice parents, everything it ought to be. Reminded me of when I went to school as a kid. The summer before I quit teaching, an apartment complex opened up in the area and we had an influx of thuggish, low income kids that changed the atmosphere overnight. Literally. Fights in the halls, vandalism, text books ripped up and lost (ones that were subsidized so their parents didn't lose the deposit), gross disrespect for the teachers, increased absentiism, kids abruptly not even giving lip service to trying to do well on standardlized tests. In October of that year, I found myself locking the classroom door between bells for safety's sake. I was assaulted in the hall on a break (a kid grabbed me - swore he didn't realize it was a teacher since there was a crowd and I tend to believe him). I started locking up my supplies after a rash of thefts of teachers' purses. I had a few of the "new" kids (and they were just a smallish group in size when compared to the overall population). Their parents never came to parent teacher conferences. Yes, these were black kids but I had black students before all this happened and they were fine - did well.

I came into that school year excited to be teaching but by Christmas, I'd signed up to take the LSAT and look for a different field. I'd never considered going to law school or doing anything except teaching (not counting when I was a kid - I mean that once I began teaching I thought I'd found my calling). That was my last year teaching kids. It happened just that fast. You simply could not compare the orderly, sweet kids who, although they were junior high and goofy as a result, were still KIDS, to the thugs that invaded the school and didn't seem to have any ambition or understanding that they were there to get an education. It rapidly became an armed camp between the different groups within the student body. Kids that should have been flirting with the girls and showing off on the football field were suddenly bringing knives to school for protection (one of my kids was suspended when he brought a knife to school for that reason - he showed me the knife to let me know he had it but the zero tolerance by the district caused him problems). His parents were livid and I begged the principal to give him another chance but his hands were tied to the extent SOMETHING had to be done - the kiddo got a short suspension but could have been expelled. Didn't matter, he didn't come back.

And as for the southside - being a northside girl, I couldn't imagine why anyone would go to the southside for any reason. We thought of it as dirty and crime ridden with small homes and crappy schools. That may never have been true but things were so swell up north that most of us had no reason to look to the south to find out for sure. I'd drive through on my way to Norman on I240 and never wanted to stop. Since I moved back (and live on the far SW side) I've been amazed at how the southside has developed in the past ten years. Very impressed! I know one of the Moore school principals and she seemed dedicated and proud of her district, overall.

[Steve]

Not sure I can understand your fear driving through Britton and May Avenue. The Village, Quail Creek, Lakeside still relatively nice. Now, Hefner and Western - that's a once nice area I definitely lock my doors while driving through.

[PennyQuilts]

Not sure I can understand your fear driving through Britton and May Avenue. The Village, Quail Creek, Lakeside still relatively nice. Now, Hefner and Western - that's a once nice area I definitely lock my doors while driving through.

That isn't the area I meant - sorry I wasn't more clear. By north central side, I meant the area nearer to Broadway north of 63rd.

[Steve]

I think you're referring to the area between Wilshire and Hefner, Broadway to Pennsylvania. Um, yeah... not doing that great.

[progressiveboy]

As a former North OKC resident, and trying not to sound partial, however, I would take the North side of OKC anyday over South OKC. The few dealings I had with people from the South side were unkempt, nasty, snaggle toothed people. Yes, I realize that Northside has a few, however overall you have much better neighborhoods like Gaillardia, Rose Creek, Crown Heights, Nichols Hills, Mesta Park that I would take over anything "South" of the river with the exception of Norman. When I lived in OKC, Northside people looked cleaner and better groomed. On the Northside, you have better shopping, better restaurants and overall a cleaner enviornment. The Southside has empty Crossroads Mall, tons of gangs, I would even bet that the Southside has a higher crime rate. As far as I am concerned, Moore and South OKC is most definite, "Redneck" Riveria, LOL. Just my honest opinion.

[PennyQuilts]

I think you're referring to the area between Wilshire and Hefner, Broadway to Pennsylvania. Um, yeah... not doing that great.

Yup. I used to live just south of there for a short time right after I married - that was decades ago, I know. Still - wow. I am sure I am not the only old timer who has had that experience. My mother kept wanting to drive through the worst parts of DC because she lived there as a child, 70 years before and had such fond memories.

[PennyQuilts]

http://www.news9.com/Global/category.asp?C=161407

[Rover]

This thread title and first post smacks of more southside insecurity. To pick out a couple of spots that have aged and to claim that represents the north side is just ignorant. There are many amazing neighborhoods on the north side and in Edmond. Somebody needs to get out more and actually drive the city before trying to make some indefensible case.

[progressiveboy]

As a former Northside resident, I can attest that I would take the Northside of the City over Southside any day. Better restaurants, better shopping overall cleaner neighborhoods. You have Gaillardia, Rose Creek, Nichols Hills, Crown Heights, Mesta Park, Lake Aluma and even well maintained areas such as Lakehurst and Quail Creek. What few dealings I had with people on the "Southside" were people that had an unkempt appearance, nasty looking snaggle toothed rednecks. Sorry to sound like an elitist, however that is my perception and honest opinion. Yes, Northside has a few problems and a few unkempt looking people but I can assure you that all the prominent CEO's and important people in the community reside on the Northside. I find the Southside so "undesireable" with the exception of Norman. Moore and S OKC are too "redneck" for me.

[PennyQuilts]

As someone who lived in Lake Aluma as a kid, I don't think you can count Lake Aluma as the stereotypical north side. It is firmly on the NE side more akin to Edmond than OKC. It is its own township.

[flintysooner]

Moore and S OKC are too "redneck" for me.

I'm certain that is true.

[Steve]

I see this and ask if it's not the same old, same old south/north hate baiting we've seen for decades. And really, where did that get us as a city?

[Easy180]

Exactly...believe we have already been thru these slam each others neighborhoods threads before

Where you or yo mama chose to live is great and everywhelse is shizz...we got it

[stlokc]

I'm with Steve. Same old blather, different incarnation. "Losing the battle" is so melodramatic. If there's any "battle" it's the core of the city versus new sprawl (in all directions). People by and large don't move en masse from north suburbs to south suburbs or vice-versa. What tends to happen generationally is people move farther out on whatever side their families have always lived on. Crown Heights families become Quail Creek families become Edmond families. Capitol Hill families become I-240 families become Westmoore families. There are new strip centers in Moore, there are new strip centers on Memorial Road. There are crack houses in the inner south side and the inner north side, and as the city grows, formerly outer areas morph into inner areas in all directions. Every single city in the US experiences this. And Stereotypes like "snaggle tooth citizens" don't do anybody any good. Really, aren't we beyond this by now?

[Patrick]

I concur with what has been said. Urban sprawn is continuing both north and south. The good areas south have moved further south to Moore. The good areas north have moved further north to the Edmond and Deer Creek areas. Only, as a whole, the areas north are much wealthier than the areas south. And to call Quail "hoodville" or whatever, is stretching it. Moore has a JC Penney and Gordmans. Ummm Quail has a Macy's and Dillards, both of which left Crossroads and wouldn't locate to Moore due to "demographics."

[plmccordj]

While I will agree with this thread being a little too set up for starting a fight, I think our city has grown enough that saying North or South are too broad of terms. Most of the area that people are referring to as South could legitimately be called South Central because the area South of Reno but North of I-240 is where many are referring to as being gang ridden. That area while South, is more of an inner city (South central) area as compared to South of I-240. I know that many people have never seen the area near Early Wine. I think by most standards, that is a relatively high end part of town. To refer to "South OKC" in broad terms sort of groups a vast area together.

Now to join into the fight... We are in the market to build a new house and have chosen the far South part of town because the same house costs significantly more when built in North OKC or Edmond. While this may be okay for some, I just cannot justify the added costs. There is no offense to anyone on that side of town. It is just the added cost that helped me make my decision. I really do not go to ANY of the malls in the metro so having Penn Square or Quail Springs nearby does not appeal to me at all. In the remote chance that I would go to any of those places, I can always drive.