There's NO Win in Winstar Casino II

[flatang]

It's Friday night and the place is dead one hostess says "Our Friday nites are starting to look more like Monday nites" Another hostess replies "What do you expect the casino hasn't been paying out in probably a month or better".

Thank goodness anyway it appears enough people have either started 1)heeding the warnings 2) Been burned to many times by this sorry excuse for a casino 3) Have seen a few of the investigative news clips that have aired over the last few months proving some of what I had been saying.

For those few none believers or uniformed. (Spreading the news of this place is a wise decision especially to those you know that are going.)Yes once again The Winstar Casino is featured in a televised investigative report focusing on the Winstar's continued use of several methods in which they defraud the customer. This clip is from WFAA News 8 and has various victims testimonies and employees verifying the casino's involvement in these scams.

If you are planning a trip there over the Memorial day weekend be prepard to lose if the casino operates in the fashion it has been over the last month approx. As of 5/26 my colleages say the place is worse than ever. So much so that the casino has resorted to announcing fake jackpot wins over the PA system to cover up the fact that they are not paying anyone. This manuvere is intended to make people think others are winning. A lot of people fall for it to. I was told at one point the other day the front desk of the casino was handed a sheet of fake jackpots and what area in the casino they were to have occurred and told to read a new one off approx every 15 minutes . These people are some sorry SOB's folks regardless if you have ever won there or not.

Here's a small list of some of the casinos favorite methods to cheat and steal from the customer:

1) Practice of voiding customers wins through various means, some of which include the use of "Power failures", "Manipulating players machine" "Distrupting players machine" and out right lying telling customer machine malfuctioned to void the winning payout.

2) The continued lie implicating the State of Oklahoma as the sole reason why the casino must charge a fee for every hand played in their card game. Stating , "The reason for the fee is by direct order of the State of Oklahoma and is mandated by the State of Oklahoma for the purpose of funding Native American childrens education

3) Manipulating jackpot payout wins to coordinate the winning event to happen when the casino wants. Used to encourage more play toward that amount. Done at the expense of all trying for the win not knowing they could never win until the casino releases it.

4) Misrepresenting Jackpot amounts in order to encourage players to try for that inflated amount thinking it is winnable.

5) Continued misrepresentation of machines payout percentages

6) The continued lie to customers of their comp program for over 2 years now.

"Half the distance twice the fun" It might be half the distance but there is no fun in being cheated. Realise this is not a post about losing. Losing is part of the game but there is a big difference between "Games of Chance" & "Games of NO Chance" Noboby should have to be cheated. Go anywhere else don't go to these peoples establishments. Indian casinos have always had a bad reputation, the Winstar is writing brand new chapters to help keep that theory alive

[MadMonk]

Is there any official oversight of this place? Who would one complain to?

[aintaokie]

Interesting....my sister lives in Gainesville and is a regular at Winstar...won $12K back several months ago and has one several hundred $$ at various times.

[Midtowner]

Just so y'all know, Flatang has been posting warnings about Winstar as early as May of last year. This is not new news from him. Flatang, what exactly do you have against Winstar? Can you substantiate any of this? Or do you just work for a competing casino?

If one goes to casinos as a hobby, the odds are that you will lose money. In fact, the odds strongly favor the house. If you are going to casinos to make extra money, you are a moron. Play the stock market, you're still betting, but the odds are much better!

At any rate, flatang, I'd love for you to enlighten us as to how you know all of these tactics that Winstar uses to defraud its customers. If you have first hand knowledge of these tactics, and have continued to attend for a year since your first "Winstar is a fraud" type posts, why are you still going there? A touch of the Downs?

[flatang]

Interesting....my sister lives in Gainesville and is a regular at Winstar...won $12K back several months ago and has one several hundred $$ at various times.

The real truth about gambling is nobody tells the truth or the whole story. I've heard these statements 100's of times and either these two points are missing 1)Winnings great but you have to justify the losses also and people don't regularly brag about such things as losses. 2) If she is ahead fabulous, it's not impossible to achieve that status it is though almost impossible to maintain it. I would strongly suggest telling your sister to quit while shes ahead if indeed thats the case.


Midtowner.... I salute you in calling me out on my merits to these claims.

First of all I would like to say that NO I am not associated with any other gambling casino that would compete against Winstar or any other gambling organization in general (incl. lottery, horse track, dog track, numbers, sports betting, etc). Also I have nothing personal or other wise against Native Americans.

For me to make false claims regarding this establishment would merely put me at the same low level to which the brain trust at the Winstar resides. To substantiate my claims I will tell you that at one time I did frequent this place but also I do know people who are employeed throughout the rank and file of the organization. In an attempt to not make any false statements I try to verify the exsistance of a claim personally or by having more than one persons assessment. To make false claims regarding the ways in which the Winstar defrauds customers would only help to allow them to continue in their unethical matter and provides them an alibi.

Because the ways the laws are written and the compacts made between the States and the tribes. Some tribal organizations will find loop holes or use their sovereign status in ways that give them an unfair advantage over what the general population deems or expects would be considered fair play on the part of a casino operation. Since class II gaming is virtually left up to the tribe itself to police there is not much incentive to not cheat the public. Thats why Native American casinos have the status associated with them as being not as fair as non Native American. There was an article written by a Native American tribal governor who sat on the board of the NIGC and basically said this same thing. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves he said, the temptation is to great for tribes economically depressed to take advantage of these situations afforded them. His concern was to point out to what lenghts would tribes go to sell there ethics for revenue.

My reason for posting is to warn customers of the Winstar's inability to not offer "Games of chance" all the time but instead choose to provide "Games of NO chance" also from time to time. As I have said this is not about losing so much as it is about the ability to not win, Losing is part of playing. But for the casino to be able to set itself up so you can not win even before you walk into the place does not define "chance" at all. Unless your definition of "chance" is "You hope the (chance) does not exsist that the casino has purposely set up the machines to not allow for the natural course of obtaining a winner to exsist or to be greatly reduced." As more people become aware of these circumstances and begin to realize patterns that exsist the more realistic my claims become. If it were not for the kickbacks in revenue along with the issue of sovereign status and its role I'm sure the State would be more inclined to act. For now anyways it only seems to serve the purpose of protecting the casino.

In short, ethical business' do not send death threats to customers. This one did and since it was done in writing the proof is right there. The sorry part about this for them is they had such a good thing going when you consider the proximity to Dallas/Ft Worth but through ignorance and greed they have choosen the wrong way to run it.

[OklaCity_75]

I thought the general rule for casinos was that the odds are always in the houses favor.

The reason why casinos are so successful is that more people lose than win. The handful of people that do win end up putting the money right back.

I think the state should look into legalizing casino gambling and moderately tax the winnings. We should take advantage of this before the tribes go full scale and put a casino near every tourist attraction in the state.

Mark my word the day will come sooner or later when one of the tribes will build a casino downtown. When they do, it will be a prefabricated piece of garbage with a brick facade.

I say we beat the tribes to the punch and legalize casino gambling. Private casinos will dump nine kinds of money into the state economy. We could probably eliminate the income tax and stop taxing groceries.

[flatang]

Is there any official oversight of this place? Who would one complain to?

Inquirers to the National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC)( The Federal level of supposed oversight) have fallen on deaf ears. The Oklahoma Attorney Generals Office seems to want no part of it or claim to have no jurisdiction.

[aintaokie]

flatang, you're right about the winning part...I found out through other family members that my sister got in over her head, the losses started to mount and now she has stopped playing...she blew all the money that she won on junk and paying off bills....then she started going back because of the excitement and did not win, but kept on going untill she got into trouble.....now she is having to pay her way out of a mess.
I personally have never gambled and have no desire to...but I have many friends who go to casino's all over the country and at best "break even".

[flatang]

aintaokie,
I commend you on your honesty I takes a pretty big person to admit such defeats even when they are talking about someone other than themselves, like a family member. I'm sure your sister will get her matters in order, she's obviously smart, since she was able to make the decision to stay away from there. I wonder if she would have anything to say regarding the original post to this thread?

Another advantage casinos have with regards to the assumptions people make about the odds, based on conversations or hear say, is exactly what just occured here. Consider the difference between your first post on this thread and this one. I admit I was really not expecting you to come back with what really occured, most people wouldn't. For that I'm grateful to you for helping me prove a point or two. I would dare say that there are many more with similar stories but as I was saying this is the side that most people don't admit to and it plays right into the casino's hand.

Besides the financial lose suffered when a person gets in over their head the individual will also feel shame, embarrassment, guilt. Usually not from a selfish desire to want to go gamble for themselves but more over out of desperation. It's the only way they can see getting out of the mess. If they can lose that much then surely they can win that much of an amount back or a little this time and a little more next time and they're home free but it just doesn't happen in most cases.

And it sure as hell isn't going to happen if the casino is manipulating the odds against you even more than those odds are expected to be. Don't get me wrong people lose in casinos that are considered on the up&up also, if there really is such a casino. Regardless in the end if you continue to play you will lose. But that should not give any casino the right to intentionally cheat players. I can hear their defense now

" Well your honor statistics show that these playing customers would eventually lose all they have to us. We decided to take it upon ourselves to speed the process up by just making our games "Games of No chance" there by saving the customer valuable time that would otherwise have been spent languishing away in our establishment winning some here losing some there. Our method allows the player to get it over with nice and quick and allows them to get on their way."