Oklahoma Teacher Shortage

[C_M_25]

Hey guys. I came across an article or two today regarding a teacher shortage and budget shortfall for the education system. The proposal to circumvent the issue is to go to 4 day school weeks.

Oklahoma Schools Condensing Schedule to Save Money, Attract Teachers | KGOU

The Problem Behind The Oklahoma Teacher Shortage - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

They are using the shorter schedule to try and attract teachers. I find this to be embarrassing. First, there is a national problem with teacher pay. It is way too low, but that being said, Oklahoma is near the bottom of the list in teacher salary which is a bigger problem. Teachers aren't leaving the state because of schedules, they are leaving because of pay and a better educational system.

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

I heard the other day that Oklahoma has more school districts than California. It makes sense because of all of the rural areas, but all the districts are probably part of the reason why we have issues.

We get a lot of money from the oil industry among others. Where does it all go?? We have some of the worst roads and worst schools and our current administration has done nothing to improve it. I wish I could see our annual budget for the state and see where our money goes. What are y'all's thoughts on our state's situation?

[dankrutka]

As someone in education, this was bound to happen. Teachers are underpaid, constantly disrespected, and their work is too often in the hands of ignorant legislators. If the citizens of Oklahoma and the United States want teacher success and stability then it'll have to do what successful countries do - respect teachers as professionals.

[SoonerDave]

In my opinion, there is no fix for Oklahoma's corrupt, broken educational system. The only choice? Flatten and reload. Scorched earth. Start from scratch - everything from funding to organization to bureaucracy.

I am more than ready for some out-of-the-box solutions. I *firmly* believe in mandatory consolidation of school districts and elimination of duplicative administrative positions. I am firmly in the camp of eliminating the absurd layer of bureaucracy that seems to have run amok in our school system in general and gives entirely too much power (and too much of the limited funding) to administrators and PhD's who are so far removed from the classroom that they've turned the whole educational process into a perpetual petri dish of abstract pseudo-educational experiments. Given where we are, I wouldn't object to eliminating the grade structure, putting the kids into classrooms, and handing out McGuffey Readers and going back to rote math table recitation. Bottom line - let the teachers teach. Let the teachers discipline, too. Let the PhD's go experiment...somewhere else.

And until we let teachers discipline again, and stop excusing bad behavior as a perpetual byproduct of chronically damaged self-esteem, the druggable emotional disorder du jour, or merely to avoid hurt feelings, we'll never, ever restore to the classroom the simple respect necessary to establish the teacher as the authority, and the student as the - guess what - the student.

The funding model is so thoroughly broken I don't even begin to know where to fix it. Consdering the OK education budget is, what, something on the order of $3.4 BILLION, BILLION, it to me the very height of asininity that we cannot find a way to pay our teachers and fund the school systems in a manner that garners some practical, real-world benefit - not merely hands kids a scroll when then turn 18.

Okay, okay, rant mode off.

[C_M_25]

If I had any say in the matter it would go something like this:

Consolidate unnecessary school districts.

Start at the top of the school administration and reduce salaries and get rid of redundant positions.

Re-evaluate distribution of monies going to schools (push more money towards academics and academic facilities as opposed to sports facilities)

At that point, hopefully there will be enough money savings to increase teacher salaries to be competitive with Texas.

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).

Provide incentives for students to pursue degrees in education

Finally, if the above doesn't get me anywhere, I would reallocate tax money to schools, and if that isn't possible, raise taxes a small percentage. People scoff at raising taxes a little, but if we really want change and if we really want to move from the bottom of the pack nationally, we may have to pay in a little more (this is last case scenario obviously).

[bradh]

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).

This gonna be good...

[C_M_25]

This gonna be good...

That is just what I would like to see happen. It's not like it will ever happen....unfortunately.

[bradh]

That is just what I would like to see happen. It's not like it will ever happen....unfortunately.

I know, just saying we got a couple passionate teach union folk on here that will strike you down.

[C_M_25]

It is a difficult discussion, but it needs to happen. My wife is a teacher, and we have talked about the union a lot. There are some things I like about it, but I absolutely HATE that they make it almost impossible to fire teachers with tenure. I've seen too many irritable 60 year old teachers that have no business in a class room but the district cannot do anything with them.

[dankrutka]

In my opinion, there is no fix for Oklahoma's corrupt, broken educational system. The only choice? Flatten and reload. Scorched earth. Start from scratch - everything from funding to organization to bureaucracy.

I am more than ready for some out-of-the-box solutions. I *firmly* believe in mandatory consolidation of school districts and elimination of duplicative administrative positions. I am firmly in the camp of eliminating the absurd layer of bureaucracy that seems to have run amok in our school system in general and gives entirely too much power (and too much of the limited funding) to administrators and PhD's who are so far removed from the classroom that they've turned the whole educational process into a perpetual petri dish of abstract pseudo-educational experiments. Given where we are, I wouldn't object to eliminating the grade structure, putting the kids into classrooms, and handing out McGuffey Readers and going back to rote math table recitation. Bottom line - let the teachers teach. Let the teachers discipline, too. Let the PhD's go experiment...somewhere else.

And until we let teachers discipline again, and stop excusing bad behavior as a perpetual byproduct of chronically damaged self-esteem, the druggable emotional disorder du jour, or merely to avoid hurt feelings, we'll never, ever restore to the classroom the simple respect necessary to establish the teacher as the authority, and the student as the - guess what - the student.

The funding model is so thoroughly broken I don't even begin to know where to fix it. Consdering the OK education budget is, what, something on the order of $3.4 BILLION, BILLION, it to me the very height of asininity that we cannot find a way to pay our teachers and fund the school systems in a manner that garners some practical, real-world benefit - not merely hands kids a scroll when then turn 18.

Okay, okay, rant mode off.

As a teacher of six years, a recent PhD in education, and someone really involved, I disageee with a lot of this. First, I taught in a great school students and teachers were incredibly successful. Talking about the education system as simply "broken" with the need to be "fixed" she was a real misunderstanding of our schools.

What experiments are PhDs doing in our schools? I know a ton of education professors in Oklahoma and almost all of them favor empowering teachers, not micromanaging them are telling them what to do based on suppose it experiments. If there is something wrong then please be more specific about it. But I would say our education professors are maybe our greatest strength in the state. I think Farmor blame falls with legislators and in some cases administrators who micromanage. I could go on but I don't have time to address everyone of your ideas.

[dankrutka]

If I had any say in the matter it would go something like this:

Consolidate unnecessary school districts.

Start at the top of the school administration and reduce salaries and get rid of redundant positions.

Re-evaluate distribution of monies going to schools (push more money towards academics and academic facilities as opposed to sports facilities)

At that point, hopefully there will be enough money savings to increase teacher salaries to be competitive with Texas.

Remove teacher tenure (i feel it promotes complacency).

Provide incentives for students to pursue degrees in education

Finally, if the above doesn't get me anywhere, I would reallocate tax money to schools, and if that isn't possible, raise taxes a small percentage. People scoff at raising taxes a little, but if we really want change and if we really want to move from the bottom of the pack nationally, we may have to pay in a little more (this is last case scenario obviously).

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.

[SOONER8693]

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.

I agree totally with what Dan has said here. I have taught 38 yrs in Oklahoma, all in the same large district, on the southside of OKC. Next year will be my 39th and last. Retiring. Nothing has changed in those 38-39 years as far as teacher pay and school funding is concerned. I doubt it ever will. It just gets lip service from everyone. But, nothing happens. In my humble opinion, one of the biggest problems in Oklahoma, at least, is way too many administrators at every level, making outrageous salaries. I have a masters in admin and curriculum supervision and enough hours for 2 PHD's. But, I felt my calling and strengths were in the classroom with the everyday give and take with students and the relationship with them. I think I've touched and influenced MANY more students/people than I ever would have as an administrator. But, my income doesn't reflect that. My mistake I suppose.

[dankrutka]

I agree. There's really no reason for administrator salaries to be double or triple what teachers make... Is it similar in other states? If so, I guess there's a fear of losing admin who are often tasked with "fixing" schools.

[dankrutka]

If anyone wants a nice historical read on the putrid history of teacher treatment in the U.S. Then read Dana Goldstein's "The Teacher Wars" that just came out last year. It's also available on audiobook.

[C_M_25]

I agree with most of your suggestions, but do you have any evidence that tenure actually causes laziness. Most studies I've seen have not seen a correlation. What tenure does is provide teachers comfort in knowing they can teach about evolution or controversial issues, things that they should be doing, without losing their job because of political reasons.

There are things about tenure that I do like such as what you mention.

I still feel that there are those out there that get tenure and just kick back. My wife replaced a teacher like this. She was older, and she was a problem for everyone. She yelled at kids and parents, and she was just burnt out overall. She had tenure though and could draw a check. Eventually, they managed to get her to retire, but tenure can allow these problems to occure.

[dankrutka]

There are things about tenure that I do like such as what you mention.

I still feel that there are those out there that get tenure and just kick back. My wife replaced a teacher like this. She was older, and she was a problem for everyone. She yelled at kids and parents, and she was just burnt out overall. She had tenure though and could draw a check. Eventually, they managed to get her to retire, but tenure can allow these problems to occure.

And, of course, I'm not defending bad teachers, but (a) are you sure teacher couldn't be fired even with tenure? I've seen a number of cases where administrators don't even make the effort to create a paper trail as to why the teacher should be fired and that's why nothing ever happens. And (b) are you sure these teachers wouldn't exist even if we got rid of tenure? There are incompetent people in just about about every field. Teachers just seem to face way more scrutiny about it. And as is evidenced by the teacher shortage, there's not exactly a ton of qualified people knocking down the door looking for teaching jobs.

I'm not saying I have answers to these questions, but we should figure out answers to them before we get rid of something that protects teachers from doing their work without interference for political reasons. The recent case in Seminole where teachers were fired simply for disagreeing with district decisions about spending provides a great example of what can go wrong. And teacher tenure came about before unions ever came to prominence in the United States too. A complicated issue.

[dankrutka]

To me, the key to improving education is creating a profession where The key to improving education is creating a profession where teachers are treated like professionals. Of course, that means things like higher pay, more decision-making power in their classrooms, and also shared power in schools and districts.

The best way to undermine education is to keep looking for ways to let anyone in the field, allowing the state legislature to continue their merry-go-round of ignorant reforms, and to continue promoting charter schools ( not at all charter schools are the same or bad) or the privatization of education that really don't solve anything.

[SOONER8693]

To me, the key to improving education is creating a profession where The key to improving education is creating a profession where teachers are treated like professionals. Of course, that means things like higher pay, more decision-making power in their classrooms, and also shared power in schools and districts.

The best way to undermine education is to keep looking for ways to let anyone in the field, allowing the state legislature to continue their merry-go-round of ignorant reforms, and to continue promoting charter schools ( not at all charter schools are the same or bad) or the privatization of education that really don't solve anything.

Very nicely stated.

[Bunty]

If the administrator of a 500 student school district is getting the same pay as administrator of a 5000 student school district, that is not right or fair. To fix it, the small school districts should have to get together to consolidate. To make it easier to accept, no little school would have to close unless it wanted to. No little school would have to be swallowed up by a much bigger school district. Whatever school administrations had been getting paid, it would result in saving money. And the savings should be big enough to be noticed by the small schools.

[SoonerDave]

As a teacher of six years, a recent PhD in education, and someone really involved, I disageee with a lot of this. First, I taught in a great school students and teachers were incredibly successful. Talking about the education system as simply "broken" with the need to be "fixed" she was a real misunderstanding of our schools.

What experiments are PhDs doing in our schools? I know a ton of education professors in Oklahoma and almost all of them favor empowering teachers, not micromanaging them are telling them what to do based on suppose it experiments. If there is something wrong then please be more specific about it. But I would say our education professors are maybe our greatest strength in the state. I think Farmor blame falls with legislators and in some cases administrators who micromanage. I could go on but I don't have time to address everyone of your ideas.

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.

[SOONER8693]

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.

Spot on. Dave, you know me and know that I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm at a school that is considered one of the good ones. Unfortunately they are the exception, rather than the rule.

[Dubya61]

If the administrator of a 500 student school district is getting the same pay as administrator of a 5000 student school district, that is not right or fair. To fix it, the small school districts should have to get together to consolidate. To make it easier to accept, no little school would have to close unless it wanted to. No little school would have to be swallowed up by a much bigger school district. Whatever school administrations had been getting paid, it would result in saving money. And the savings should be big enough to be noticed by the small schools.

Maybe I'm lazy or stupid about doing the research for myself, but ...
Who pays these administrators? The state of OK? or the individual school districts?

[Zuplar]

I know several teachers in districts all around the OKC metro, all are the 'suburban' districts, and all would tend to agree with Dave on this. I'd say based on what I've heard there isn't a district in the metro that isn't broken.

[SoonerDave]

Spot on. Dave, you know me and know that I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm at a school that is considered one of the good ones. Unfortunately they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Absolutely.

What I think may be a bit lost on some very well intentioned people who are at one of those exceptional schools is the fact that they infer most schools are more similar to their own than different, hence nothing's really wrong.

[dankrutka]

I equally don't have the time to list the kinds of nonsensical things that my wife - a teacher for some 15 years - has had to go through because it was the latest "new educational paradigm" that someone cooked up and had to be implemented - only to find a year or two later, some new leader comes in and says, in effect, all the old stuff was wrong, and in comes the latest batch of petri dishes, and the cycle repeats. I've been stunned by the byzantine abstractions for teaching children things like reading and math, or the imposition of expectations that teachers can reasonably assess are or are not realistic for some or all of their students - to say nothing of their personal family issues that might constructively make such goals impossible to achieve under any circumstances.

And, in all honesty, it is dismaying to hear from someone who even argues the idea that public schools aren't broken. Funding is broken. Expectations are broken. Results are broken. Social promotion is rampant. Kids are graduating that can't make change without a calculator, spell without an online dictionary, or construct a coherent English sentence, yet don't find it out until they hit a college-level composition or math course.

A system that pays teachers a garbage salary AND expects them to buy supplies for the classroom while paying administrators six-figure salaries is broken. A system that has among the highest number of districts per capita, yet shudders at the notion of consolidation due to political chicanery, is broken. A system that brings principals and teachers to tears due to overwork and micromanagement is broken. A system that is driving teachers out of state so rapidly that it has created a legitimate professional staffing shortage is broken.

Are there exceptions? Are there a few good districts and schools? Of course. In this case, however, those are the exceptions that prove a very ugly rule. We know there are good principals and good teachers, but I hear from my own wife how many of them have just given up that OK schools will ever get better, or treat their teachers any better. They've changed professions to stay in-state, or simply moved out of state.

That's a broken system, no matter how you slice it.

So much to respond to here that I don't have the time/energy to respond to it all. But, first, yes, schools continually impose all kinds of ridiculous things, but those often don't come from university professors at respected institutions. It usually comes from people with degrees working at for-profit companies. As an education professor, me and all my colleagues across two universities have always worked against educational gimmicks.

I don't use the term "broken" because speaking in extremes is so rarely productive. I could give you a million statistics about how literacy, numeracy, etc. are the highest they've ever been. It's easy to romanticize the past and think things have never been this bad, but American schools have ALWAYS been underfunded, labelled "broken," and kids were learning nothing. All your anecdotal examples don't match up with any actual research. But, again, people have ALWAYS complained that kids aren't learning anything in schools. Pick up pretty much any book on the history of education and you'll find the same stories.

Education needs improvements, primarily in funding and prestige, but it's nothing new. I'm minimizing the serious problems and lower funding, but none of this is unprecedented. Anyway, I suspect that most of our disagreements are in terms, not concerns. No point in fighting.

[zookeeper]

Well, when countries like Cuba have higher literacy rates than the U.S. and are lauded for their educational system, while ours is a maze of "throw it against the wall and hopefully some of it will stick," something is, in fact, broken. I think it's a very appropriate word.

Speaking of Cuba, a neighbor of mine once had a four year old with a serious and rare heart defect. He went to Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, and got the same answer: a certain surgeon at a Havana hospital is the best of the best. He contacted the State Department, who allowed a waiver, and they took this four year old to Cuba. He is now 19 years old and healthy as can be. The bill was ZERO dollars even though they were Americans. They were simply amazed at the island nation and its educational system and healthcare system. NO WAY should they be better - in anything - than this huge, wealthy country to the north.