School Vouchers being contemplated.........

[Tundra]

Good Evening,

MPS needs your help! There is a bill that has been
presented to the legislature that will enable Vouchers/Education Savings
Accounts to become law. Before I speak on this particular bill, I need
data (one way or the other) to back it up. We have launched a campaign to
educate and receive feedback from our community. My request is that you
take two minutes and follow the link provided Moore Public Schools / Overview
(district website), click on the Vouchers in Oklahoma icon, read the one page
of information, and click the link at the bottom to take the two question
survey.

As always, thank you for your support!

Dr. Romines

[Zuplar]

Well first vouchers and an ESA kind of are 2 different things. I like Robert, but he is kind of making them seem like the same thing. And let's be honest, most private schools are better than public schools. So with that being said if there is a way for parents to essentially keep their taxes (vouchers) and apply that to a private school because that's where they want to send their kid, then I have a hard time denying them that.

[dankrutka]

What makes private schools better than public schools? Oh, it's the college educated parents and wealth of money. Yep. Public schools with the same demographics do fine. No one complains about wealthy, suburban public schools. In short, no, private schools don't do better when you factor in income inequality. If there is some empirical evidence that accounts for variables that has shown that private schools are a better model than public schools then I'd like to see it.

[Tundra]

What makes private schools better than public schools? Oh, it's the college educated parents and wealth of money. Yep. Public schools with the same demographics do fine. No one complains about wealthy, suburban public schools. In short, no, private schools don't do better when you factor in income inequality. If there is some empirical evidence that accounts for variables that has shown that private schools are a better model than public schools then I'd like to see it.

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

[Bunty]

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise, I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.

If vouchers are legalized and the public school teacher only has 25 rather than 30 students in class to teach, that teacher still gets paid the same. The teacher may not mind too much, but the state isn't saving money.

Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if private schools are giving campaign money to legislators, who support vouchers and/or if those legislators send their children to private or religious schools.

[mugofbeer]

Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise, I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.

If vouchers are legalized and the public school teacher only has 25 rather than 30 students in class to teach, that teacher still gets paid the same. The teacher may not mind too much, but the state isn't saving money.

Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if private schools are giving campaign money to legislators, who support vouchers and/or if those legislators send their children to private or religious schools.

Don't know. What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers. So what's the difference?

[SoonerDave]

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

Categorically inaccurate. The private schools I'm aware of and for whom my wife has worked didn't make *half* the pathetic rate of OK public schools. And OK public school teacher pay is already pathetic.

[SoonerDave]

Unless you think Moore public schools have become so miserably bad that they're not worth throwing another more penny at, along with having sorry teachers not worthy of a raise, I don't see the point of subsidizing private and/or religious schools with public tax dollars.

But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."

Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child. It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend.

The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?

Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.

[stile99]

It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child.

I have no children, I graduated long ago. I have no dog in this fight whatsoever, and as such, have no idea and barely care how vouchers work. But I do have a question. What about property owners who are not parents? What do they get from a voucher program? Could a non-parent taxpayer still get vouchers and give them to a neighbor or something? Say I live in district X. District X is known to have complete crap schools. My next-door neighbor gets vouchers to send his kid(s) to district Y, which is known to have excellent schools. Could I elect to have my tax money sent to district Y as well?

[dankrutka]

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

Let's run through you're reasons:
- Weird
- Because they have more money, not because they're better
- Just like at public schools
- Incorrect, most public schools actually pay better overall

[dankrutka]

But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."

Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child. It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend.

The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?

Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.

Public schools aren't broken. These oversimplified narratives are just ignorant. I taught at Westmoore for 5 years and I believe we offered a better education than any private school in the state. We had a cast of all-star teachers. It was a great place to be.

Public schools mean that every child deserves a quality education. Our broken communities, legislators, and public make that job really hard. But vouchers will make the education gap wider for students. It will not fix anything.

[Tundra]

Public schools aren't broken. These oversimplified narratives are just ignorant. I taught at Westmoore for 5 years and I believe we offered a better education than any private school in the state. We had a cast of all-star teachers. It was a great place to be.

Public schools mean that every child deserves a quality education. Our broken communities, legislators, and public make that job really hard. But vouchers will make the education gap wider for students. It will not fix anything.

I graduated from Westmoore 22 years ago and laugh about the all star comment, give me a break but I encountered a few of the worst teachers ever at that school..... And sadly their are a few still there to this day.

[menos]

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

Class sizes are smaller so more one on one time with the teacher....

If you're a suck ass teacher at a private school you can be fired.....

They usually pay their staff better, so that's a plus for the teacher....

Former Moore Christian Schools teacher arrested in rape case | News OK just saying...

[Tundra]

Former Moore Christian Schools teacher arrested in rape case | News OK just saying...

Former teacher, so it wasn't happening when he was teaching at the private school.

[menos]

Nope, happened while he was teaching. Wasn't arrested till after he retired from the school.

http://newsok.com/article/3652085

[Tundra]

Nope, happened while he was teaching. Wasn't arrested till after he retired from the school.

Police say former Moore teacher charged with rape asked 14-year-old to marry him | News OK

Well I guess that's one thing in common with public schools...

[mugofbeer]

OKC area schools really aren't the problem where school vouchers would benefit. They would benefit in locations where public schools have failed like Chicago or Detroit or LA.

[dankrutka]

Former teacher, so it wasn't happening when he was teaching at the private school.

How many times can one person be wrong in one thread?

[dankrutka]

OKC area schools really aren't the problem where school vouchers would benefit. They would benefit in locations where public schools have failed like Chicago or Detroit or LA.

Actually, New Orleans has gone full charter school model without any significant results to show for it. And, I'm just trying to point out that people that keep saying that the schools "failed" often have very limited knowledge of the full context of the situation. First, not all schools ste failing and it's inaccurate and unproductive to paint such a picture. Two, it's complicated and we need to address the full array of issues involved... Not lazily blame public schools.

[Bunty]

Don't know. What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers. So what's the difference?

It makes a lot of difference, if you think public schools are unfit for your child. So vote, if possible for legislators, who take money from private and religious schools.

[Bunty]

Don't know. What is known is that the public school teachers unions have been giving campaign money for years and by the millions to legislators who DON'T support vouchers. So what's the difference?

Deleted as duplicated.

[Bunty]

The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?

How do you know parents will have a suitable choice for their vouchers? Maybe it's safe to say there are a good number of private/religious schools to choose from in Oklahoma City and Tulsa metros. But what about elsewhere in the state?

[Zorba]

I haven't read any articles about Oklahoma private school teacher , being charged for molesting kids , so that's a plus.....

I know it happened in Tulsa about a decade ago, at a Christian school. Seems like I've heard about it a few other times too. Not sure how being in a private school would prevent perverts. If anything there is probably more visibility in a Public School. And people tend to be overly trusting with people at churches and Christian schools.

[jdcf]

As parents we have had experience with parochial schools, (public) charter schools, and public schools. I support each but do not favor vouchers.

Vouchers do nothing to enhance public education. They serve the private and parochial institutions that have open enrollment and select their students. Private and parochial schools do not have the capacity and resources to meet the needs of urban students with individual differences: 15% special ed, 33% limited English, 90% poverty. Without adequate services, the students would be harmed rather than helped.

Private and parochial schools should be recruiting and developing programs to serve these students now, programs for spec ed and limited English students, programs to help students who perform below grade level, etc.

Why would parochial and private schools not want government tax dollars to help keep their doors open, especially in tough financial times? IMO vouchers further divide the classes and have a hidden agenda that is not readily admitted.

[onthestrip]

But, by all means, let's keep throwing money at a broken model on the order of billions annually all for the fear-mongering that we're "subsidizing religious schools."

Love this kind of spin. This isn't about "subsidizing private schools." It's about giving the *tax monies* people *already pay* BACK to the parents to give them the *choice* of education they believe is best for their child. It's about having *options*. Those in the education establishment want people to forget the fact it's *the taxpayer's* money, and they have every right to demand some form of accountability for what they're *forced* to spend and where their kids are *forced* to attend.

The ones who could benefit the most from vouchers? The folks who are in the very worst schools. Give them a chance to afford the "elitist" schools and let them flourish there. Why do we fear that choice?

Are private schools panaceas? Nope. Went through two, got an "education" about how they're not perfect. At all. And my kids finished in public schools, and my wife works in one. It's not perfect, either. Once again, reality exists *between* the two politically hyperbolized extremes. In the vein of vouchers, parents need a choice.

There is choice. They can choose to move and change districts, try to get their kids into a charter school, pay to privately school them.

Give them a "chance to afford the elitist schools"...? So someone that lives near US Grant wants to send their kids to another school yet they are too poor to move to another district and you somehow think they will be able to make up the few thousands of dollars difference between private school tuition and their ESA? And then have the means to transport that child to the private school that is probably 15 mins away? This wont happen. Thats the myth of ESAs, they arent helping the poor parent in a bad district, they are subsidizing the tuition for already well off parents.