Crawl for Cancer

[Steve]

So what do you think? Should this event have been banned from Bricktown? Should Crawl for Cancer Inc. disclose how much proceeds are raised by these events and how much actually goes to charity?
Here's my latest writing at OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond. Keep in mind that the latest Crawl for Cancer event took place this afternoon in Kansas City and participants were commenting on Twitter that they were drunk by 2 p.m.

[stlokc]

Caveat #1: Sexual harassment is never acceptable.

Caveat#2: public urination is never acceptable.

Caveat #3: If their finances are shaky, it's worth a story.

Having said that, I wonder if too big a deal is being made about this. I wasn't there and I don't know anything beyond what I've read, and I think the middle of the day is generally a bad time for a bar crawl, but the questions have to be asked: are some in OKC a little too sensitive; and also, what is it exactly that Bricktown wants to be? In St. Louis there are a ton of these types of fundraisers and they generally gravitate to urban bar districts that are a little "rougher around the edges." (neighborhoods that have grown up more organically, are more bohemian, less planned, and generally more tolerant. OKC doesn't have these sorts of neighborhoods. So is Beicktown going to be a place where moms and dads and kids with strollers rule the day, or is it going to be a more relaxed atmosphere? I don't think anybody has quite gotten the balance right. This event sounds ill-conceived and would probably be a better fit elsewhere, but I hope Bricktown doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If they push away what sounds like a lot of business because of a few bad apples...

[Steve]

Maybe the area around Edna's, the Drunken Fry and 51st Speakeasy would be better?

[MikeOKC]

I find the whole concept of charity "crawling" from bar to bar getting drunk - for any cause - disgusting. I guess I'm not very "tolerant."

[dismayed]

You're making too big of a deal out of nothing. I thought it was a fun event, and yeah there were probably some people now and then that were getting a bit too rowdy, but I have to tell you Steve I felt far safer there than I have most nights in Bricktown after a big event, such as a Thunder game. You want to talk about something how about the reggae festival a few years ago that Bricktown sponsored where I heard of two shootings and observed one myself and saw ZERO media coverage on it, except in out of state press. Bad things go on all the time down there and I think that the Bricktown Association is making a disproportionate example out of the Pub Crawl.

Honestly, when I see people writing or saying things like this, which I perceive to be in total hypocrisy compared to what is often tolerated downtown with respect to sponsored events, it makes me want to never visit Bricktown again.

That, and this once again gets back to the desire of many in our town to make the city one giant Disneyfied family friendly monstrosity. I am so sick of family friendly... can there not be one district in this town for civilized adults? Here's an idea parents, don't take your six your old on a walk down a street that has nothing but bars on it. Stay on the canal if you want to visit Bricktown.

Harsh? Yes. Uncalled for? No.

[Steve]

Ah.... interesting you should note the reggae festival. I was there too. I talked to the cops. Sorry dismayed, but what I saw was a crowd that might have enjoyed some joints, but was otherwise totally mellow. I did some press coverage of the reggae festival coinciding with that shooting, and then went out to see for myself. They were, for the most part, aging hippies. And let's be clear - the Bricktown Association didn't sponsor reggae, it was the Brewers.
Another note: the Brewers responded to my inquiries. And it wasn't held during the day.
You bring up a good question: after all the city has invested in Bricktown, with the ballpark, canal, etc., should it be turned over exclusively to club goers who primarily go out Thursday through Saturday nights and that's it?

[Soonerus]

not really a charity...

[Spartan]

You bring up a good question: after all the city has invested in Bricktown, with the ballpark, canal, etc., should it be turned over exclusively to club goers who primarily go out Thursday through Saturday nights and that's it?

Didn't realize it was in danger of being there. The answer: No, of course not. We need to do everything we can to keep the nightlife in its place and keep people from being on the streets, keep people from drinking, and keep out anyone that looks undesirable.

I think dismayed wrote an awesome post, except for bashing Reggae fest. In my opinion Reggae fest, and the Pub Crawl before it became synonymous with problems, are the events Bricktown has geared towards 20-somethings. And lord knows there aren't coordinated events geared toward more sophisticated groups, like a smaller Bricktown arts or international food festival. There might be potential to do an art car festival similar to Houston's or an international food festival similar to Cincy's. Those would bring 20-somethings who want to do more than just drink to Bricktown.

We talk sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about wanting more 20-somethings to move to OKC and boost the local economy. This is an example of that crowd clashing with the family friendly crowd. Which direction is OKC going to go? Is the city going to remain stable as a "awesome place to raise a family" or is it going to become more dynamic and morph into a city with more to do for 20-somethings? Now I'm not saying there's nothing for 20-somethings to do but in order to cement the perception that there's a LOT for them, you have to hand the keys over to Bricktown some of the time. Period.

[jbrown84]

AND as someone pointed out on the BT Assoc. blog, the Brewers always paid for security at their events. Crawl for Cancer could clearly care less about taking responsibility for their participants.

The problem is not that people were drinking in Bricktown. It's that they were BINGE DRINKING at 1pm on a Saturday, a time when families expect to be able to stroll Bricktown without feeling like they are on Bourbon Street. OF COURSE families know not to be walking around at 2am in Bricktown. This kind of behavior is not as big of a deal at that time, but for it to happen in the early afternoon, in the name of a "charity", and that "charity" not taking any responsibility for the bad behavior--that's where this is all wrong.

Other than this event, I think there is a perfect balance between family-friendly and drinker/clubber-friendly in Bricktown.

[Spartan]

Maybe they could use some of their illicit profits to go toward security detail. Or would that cut into the bottom line?

[fuzzytoad]

Maybe the area around Edna's, the Drunken Fry and 51st Speakeasy would be better?

That's where The Lost Ogle's snuggie pub crawl took place and it was a pretty big success..

However, a "pub crawl" consisting of only 3 establishments is a tad pathetic... It's like a 1 mile "marathon"

We talk sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about wanting more 20-somethings to move to OKC and boost the local economy. This is an example of that crowd clashing with the family friendly crowd. Which direction is OKC going to go? Is the city going to remain stable as a "awesome place to raise a family" or is it going to become more dynamic and morph into a city with more to do for 20-somethings? Now I'm not saying there's nothing for 20-somethings to do but in order to cement the perception that there's a LOT for them, you have to hand the keys over to Bricktown some of the time. Period.

Exactly...

Not too long ago, there *was* a 20-something here on this forum complaining about this very issue..

Of course, the regulars here called her names, told her to open her own club if she didn't like it and/or leave OKC..

so she did leave and took about 30 jobs filled by tech professionals who were mostly 20-somethings with her

[MikeOKC]

Didn't realize it was in danger of being there. The answer: No, of course not. We need to do everything we can to keep the nightlife in its place and keep people from being on the streets, keep people from drinking, and keep out anyone that looks undesirable.

I think dismayed wrote an awesome post, except for bashing Reggae fest. In my opinion Reggae fest, and the Pub Crawl before it became synonymous with problems, are the events Bricktown has geared towards 20-somethings. And lord knows there aren't coordinated events geared toward more sophisticated groups, like a smaller Bricktown arts or international food festival. There might be potential to do an art car festival similar to Houston's or an international food festival similar to Cincy's. Those would bring 20-somethings who want to do more than just drink to Bricktown.

We talk sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about wanting more 20-somethings to move to OKC and boost the local economy. This is an example of that crowd clashing with the family friendly crowd. Which direction is OKC going to go? Is the city going to remain stable as a "awesome place to raise a family" or is it going to become more dynamic and morph into a city with more to do for 20-somethings? Now I'm not saying there's nothing for 20-somethings to do but in order to cement the perception that there's a LOT for them, you have to hand the keys over to Bricktown some of the time. Period.

Nick, I don't think there are too many 20-somethings who have thought about moving here but decided that the lack of a bar crawl in the middle of the day in Bricktown was the deal killer. I don't think you really believe that.

As for a clash between young 20-somethings and the 'family crowd," I don't buy that. Maybe some 20-somethings put a premium on drinking as the end-all and be-all of defining the urban culture, but that's not even the issue. It's having such an event in the middle of the day that makes it especially nauseating. And just so you know, I love a cold beer or a lemon drop now and then, it's not about drinking per se; but I also know 20-somethings who have fled areas in other cities where it has become too raucous, loud, unsafe and ultimately, unlivable due to "turning the keys over" to elements that destroyed what was once a great place. It happens in every city. Deep Ellum, anyone? Name-Your-Hip-Hop district in any of the top 10 largest cities?

Oh, Dismayed, you wrote: "can there not be one district in this town for civilized adults?" The idea that defining a place that has bar crawls to mean it's a place for "civilized adults," I know was not meant to be humorous.

[Steve]

Fuzzy, who are you referring to?

[stlokc]

MikeOKC, I don't begrudge your opinion. But I am intimately involved in lots of different charity activities. As a "thirty-something," we are constantly looking for ways to introduce those of us who are young to the idea of giving to charity. That crowd is not likely to spend $100+ on a dinner auction where everybody else is older. I am on three "young friends" boards and alcohol-centered activities are a part of the mix.

I don't think anybody would move to a town or move away from a town based on something like this. But over-reactions can be seen as another symptom of a place where you are welcomed if you are a church-going family man or woman, and if you are not there yet, well, you can always go bowling, or to a movie. I realize that's a gross oversimplification, but you get my point.

[fuzzytoad]

Fuzzy, who are you referring to?

her okctalk username was jc4455

the thread was this one - http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...g-boo-hoo.html

[stlokc]

And, Steve, to your third post, I haven't lived in OKC since I was 18, so I didn't realize that area had become any kind of hotbed. I did drink at Edna's in high school. Maybe that sort of area is more appropriate for this type of activity than Bricktown. If Bricktown is moving towards more of a "toy museum" direction, it's clearly striving for the "family friendly" demographic, at least during the day.

[Steve]

What's odd is I've not witnessed this sort of clash at all until Crawl for Cancer. For years there seemed to have been an unspoken agreement that clubbing and heavy drinking would occur generally at night (St. Patrick's Day the understood exception) and family oriented traffic would rule during the day.
To understand why this is might be seen as being different from anything else, ask yourselves this: on what other days of the year do ROK Bar, Wormy Dog, Saphire, Drinkz and America's Pub open up to serve drinks at 1 p.m. on a Saturday?
Critics I've talked to say they wouldn't have been so upset if this took place on a Saturday night, but that this event asks for special treatment by bringing Saturday night rowdiness to the daytime when families are around.
Now, as for me, my main interest is to see whether "all proceeds" really go to charity as promised. So far, the for-profit Crawl for Cancer folks don't want to talk. And that, of course, has me very, very, very interested...

[Steve]

her okctalk username was jc4455

the thread was this one - http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...g-boo-hoo.html

Interesting. But isn't that a totally separate topic? I don't know of anyone involved in the debate who is arguing such pub crawls shouldn't occur at night. It's the daytime aspect that is being argued.

[dismayed]

Steve, I was actually referring to the last Reggae Fest that I went to, which was about 3 years ago. I stopped going because I did not like the element that attended. If the crowd was different this year then I guess they have cleaned things up. The point was that there were actually shootings that night, and I even documented it in a thread and referenced a link to an article that verifies this back at the time. It's somewhere here on the board, feel free to look it up. The Oklahoman did not cover it. I'm not trying to bash a Bricktown event but I am pointing out that there are things going on down there all the time that start in the afternoon that, just by their very nature, sometimes people get out of hand. That doesn't mean those events have to be banned totally and completely forever. You can just avoid Bricktown on that night or afternoon like how I now avoid Reggae Fest.

Mike, I expected better out of you than a personal attack. I didn't make any of my responses personal. Perhaps you should do some soul-searching as well.

I think you are being intellectually dishonest if you think that this is about folks who "think binge drinking on a Saturday afternoon is the end all be all."

So let's stop the anecdotal nonsense. Steve I'm guessing you have contacts at the OCPD because of your area of expertise. Can you tell us how many people were arrested the Saturday afternoon in question in Bricktown between the hours of noon and 6 p.m? Can you give us a breakdown on the charges? Also, for comparison's sake, tell us what it normally is on any given Saturday. Then, also for comparison's sake, please tell us what the breakdown looks like for other Saturday's when something big is going on in the afternoon. Perhaps St. Patrick's Day four years ago.

Seriously, I am curious... mostly because I am having a hard time matching up what you're describing with what I saw. You guys realize that there were groups of 40 and 50 somethings that made up some of these teams right? Heck I saw old ladies there drinking beer who looked like they were part of the "Red Hats" or some group like that.

I'm just saying it seems like people are jumping to conclusions about this event.

[fuzzytoad]

Interesting. But isn't that a totally separate topic? I don't know of anyone involved in the debate who is arguing such pub crawls shouldn't occur at night. It's the daytime aspect that is being argued.

yeah, sorry, i was referring to the topic of family-friendly vs. 20-somethings when it comes to OKC entertainment that spartan brought up

[jbrown84]

I didn't realize that area had become any kind of hotbed. I did drink at Edna's in high school. Maybe that sort of area is more appropriate for this type of activity than Bricktown.

It definitely is.

What's odd is I've not witnessed this sort of clash at all until Crawl for Cancer. For years there seemed to have been an unspoken agreement that clubbing and heavy drinking would occur generally at night (St. Patrick's Day the understood exception) and family oriented traffic would rule during the day.

This is exactly the problem. Completely agree.

[Steve]

Dismayed, are you talking about 2006? If so, I covered those shootings extensively (they occurred on Mickey Mantle Drive, not in the Reggae fest lot) and looked at Reggae fest. And as a result of those shootings, I was at the 2007 Reggae fest and NOTHING happened. I WAS THERE.
Cops were out in force on St. Patrick's Day. To be honest, what I'm told is they were caught unaware on May 1 and weren't out like they wish they had been. They're promising that if the event somehow occurs again they'll be out in force - and cracking down on anyone being served alcohol when already intoxicated.
Do you think St. Patrick's Day encourages binge drinking in four-hour period.

[dismayed]

Spartan, wasn't trying to bash Reggae Fest, but I can see now how you could think that. Just know all I was trying to say is that there are plenty of afternoons where people are out drinking... many times for Bricktown-organized events such as that, and others simply because contrary to popular belief there are many bars open in the afternoon in Bricktown, and yes they sometimes run promotions if a football or basketball game or whatever is going on. So all I'm really asking is was the Pub Crawl really that much different, and if so can someone quantify the difference instead of just hating on it.

[Spartan]

Nick, I don't think there are too many 20-somethings who have thought about moving here but decided that the lack of a bar crawl in the middle of the day in Bricktown was the deal killer. I don't think you really believe that.

As for a clash between young 20-somethings and the 'family crowd," I don't buy that. Maybe some 20-somethings put a premium on drinking as the end-all and be-all of defining the urban culture, but that's not even the issue. It's having such an event in the middle of the day that makes it especially nauseating. And just so you know, I love a cold beer or a lemon drop now and then, it's not about drinking per se; but I also know 20-somethings who have fled areas in other cities where it has become too raucous, loud, unsafe and ultimately, unlivable due to "turning the keys over" to elements that destroyed what was once a great place. It happens in every city. Deep Ellum, anyone? Name-Your-Hip-Hop district in any of the top 10 largest cities?

Oh, Dismayed, you wrote: "can there not be one district in this town for civilized adults?" The idea that defining a place that has bar crawls to mean it's a place for "civilized adults," is almost laughable. I haven't changed much since my 20's when it comes to many things. If it takes all of what you posted to make one a "civilized adult," then my suggestion would be to consider your life closely, sooner rather than later. No, I don't mean religion, I don't do that either. Just think about it.

I don't think "AND, you can even drink till you pass out in the middle of Sheridan on a Saturday afternoon!!" is the kind of thing you put on a relocation brochure per se, so we are definitely in agreement there. I also want to mention that I think everyone in this thread, myself included, believes that there does have to be that balance between "certain elements" and the "mainstream" which you want to preserve the area for. Bad elements can ruin an area and detract from the hard work that countless of people in our community have put into making Bricktown a success.

But look at it from the point of view of the young professionals living in OKC. Let's face it right now: If you are in Bricktown past midnight the scene that likely surrounds you is a cluster____. Idiots puking in the canal. 10 cop cars lined up along Mickey Mantle. Foot patrols harassing the somewhat sober people because it's easier than dealing with a drunk. If you're there on a special night they might have had a fight, meaning an important street will be closed off for an hour and you'll see 20 flashing squad cars on the scene (my point being that a bad thing gets blown waaaay out of proportion) in the middle of the street writing up the reports, and you'll see a huge crowd of people gawking around trying to figure out what's going on--these people are the police's next victims for harassment. Don't even get me started on the parking lots, where you will pay $10 or more to be treated suspiciously by people who clearly hate their job, and so on.

And yet people still go out because there is a desperation among OKC's young professionals to find a "scene" where they can hang out. The sane ones stay away from Bricktown and spend their time in a side district like Plaza, Western Ave, MidTown, Deep Deuce, etc--but those areas can probably get old quick.

Don't take my comments as defending the event that should be known as Terror for Cancer. Take my comments as directed toward the general problems of Bricktown nightlife and what exists in Bricktown for people such as my friends and I. Also take my comments as directed toward my apathy toward Bricktown's primary focus on being a "family friendly urban district." If you ask me it sounds like baloney.

Name your-hip-hop district is a good point. Name your-family-friendly district is an equally good point in my opinion. Bricktown, being here in OKC and the Heart of the Bible Belt, is always going to side with being family friendly if ever a conflict arises in finding that perfect mix. If you ask me, that's holding it back--I'd like to give something new a chance. I think that family friendly makes Bricktown stagnant, both developmentally and perception-wise, and Bricktown HAS indeed become rather stagnant in the last year or two. Nothing big has opened since the Hampton Inn. I think it's interesting how the Plaza District isn't anything family-oriented yet, last night, I saw a lot of kids running around with their parents who were very clearly getting drunk. Interesting to see if you ask me. Areas in other cities that are coming on strong seem to be capitalizing on other demographics than families...such as Blue Dome and the Brady Arts District in Tulsa. You won't find a kid's menu at McNellie's, but you will find a beer menu.

This is the compromise I propose: Let's just stop reinforcing EITHER and just be willing to see which group Bricktown naturally caters toward if allowed to. Let's get away with any official or unofficial things that keep the party scene at bay and attempt to proactively preserve Bricktown for families with small children. It's kind of like my planning philosophy, you don't have to spend billions to make a city urban, just tear down planning barriers towards urbanization and density that exist in all cities and you'll see a Houston-esque effect toward development, suburbanites happy, urbanites happy. Laissez faire needs to be invoked here.

[Steve]

dismayed, read my blog post today. I've never heard these kind of complaints from people who were visiting Bricktown on a Saturday afternoon.
Another interesting tidbit: unless one assumes that all of these people are lying about what happened, does it trouble anyone that instead of expressing remorse for what happened, those who participated are just angry that their event is in jeopardy?