Project 180 Saved Us

[G.Walker]

With all the hype about MAPS3, Devon Tower, and Bricktown developments, people are forgetting that Project 180 will have more effect on our city's central business district, then any other project. Project 180 will revitalize our downtown's streets, and park area, making it more attractive for corporations and developers to consider downtown as an investment.

What's my point? My point is that until Project 180 is complete, we won't see anymore major developments in the downtown area as far as new towers, residential areas and so on. The good thing is that Project 180 has gained more ground then other developments and is on schedule to start in less then a month.

You have to build it, before they come. Currently our downtown infrastructure will not support any other major developments, but after Project 180, this will all change. Project 180 saved us, without it, the central business district will be at a stand still.

[Kerry]

I think you might have it backwards. Without a growing downtown Project 180 wouldn't be necessary. Cities don't typically build things until they are needed.

[G.Walker]

I think you might have it backwards. Without a growing downtown Project 180 wouldn't be necessary. Cities don't typically build things until they are needed.

Our infrastructure has to be attractive enough to attract white collar business, right now its not...

[metro]

I disagree as well, without Devon Tower, there would be no Project 180. Remember Devon self-imposed a TIF on itself and paid it all in advance instead of over 20 years.

[Steve]

I think the crux of Walker's comment is that Project 180 is critical to downtown continuing to move forward - an idea I think is very supportable.

[metro]

Sure it will be a catalyst, I don't think anyone is debating that, but I don't think it's the only thing that will allow downtown to attract new business as G.Walker states. Who says our current infrastructure can't support more towers? MAPS3 will attract more development on it's own, regardless of if there was a Project 180.

[Kerry]

I am not a city engineer but the existing infrstructure in downtown OKC appears no worse than the infrastructre in downtown Jacksonville, Atlanta, or any other American city.

[G.Walker]

Sure it will be a catalyst, I don't think anyone is debating that, but I don't think it's the only thing that will allow downtown to attract new business as G.Walker states. Who says our current infrastructure can't support more towers? MAPS3 will attract more development on it's own, regardless of if there was a Project 180.

I know MAPS3 will attract new developments, retail that is, I am talking about big businesses, not condos, parks, and retail. I am talking about major corporations and high rise development. MAPS3 is 15-20 year project, and still has a long way to go, moreover, its not considered a part of the central business district.

[G.Walker]

I am not a city engineer but the existing infrstructure in downtown OKC appears no worse than the infrastructre in downtown Jacksonville, Atlanta, or any other American city.

Our street, and parking infrastructure is out dated. There in no place downtown right now where we could build a new tower if we wanted to, without the restructuring of land area, demolishing old buildings, etc. Project 180 is a good urban renewal plan that will feed to that.

[mugofbeer]

Not that I have a single criticism of Project 180 but you made a statement that I wanted to question. If a new project were to come on line today, you say it couldn't be done without restructuring of land area and demolishing old buildings. How, exactly, is Project 180 going to change this? Its not going to provide any more land for development or suddenly make buildings disappear or move. It's going to make downtown a much nicer looking place.

[G.Walker]

Not that I have a single criticism of Project 180 but you made a statement that I wanted to question. If a new project were to come on line today, you say it couldn't be done without restructuring of land area and demolishing old buildings. How, exactly, is Project 180 going to change this? Its not going to provide any more land for development or suddenly make buildings disappear or move. It's going to make downtown a much nicer looking place.

By new street development, and park development. With pedestrian walkways, and bicycle lanes, it will be more "pedestrian friendly" giving way for investors/developers to consider major residential development in those areas.

[G.Walker]

“Project 180 is one of the most ambitious downtown transformations in the country,” said project engineer Laura Story. “When it is completed in 2014, Downtown will be more visitor friendly and better poised for economic growth.”

Plans call for the addition of landscaping, public art, marked bike lanes, decorative street lighting, on-street parking spaces and even a few electric car recharging stations.

[mugofbeer]

It doesn't restructure much land area other than streets and sidewalks or change whether old buildings are demolished or not, however. Just pointing out something, not criticizing your message, though. Project 180 is nothing but good.

[Steve]

Walker, I'm on your side on this one. Guys, Project 180 is eliminating the confusing one-way street system and bringing sanity - something that would be critical if our downtown were to enjoy the addition of another major corporate anchor. Likewise, our sidewalks and public spaces are a throwback to 1970s Urban Renewal - unfriendly and cold to pedestrians. And this creates a sense of place that is hostile and unwelcoming to the up and coming younger workforce. And I know Metro has been to the same seminars as I have were we've heard over and over again that the key to prospering in this new century is to create an environment where the younger workforce WANTS to work, wants to live, wants to play. And if they have a job offer in one city that pays more, but isn't where they want to be, and another job offer in another city that pays less but offers the lifestyle they want, they will likely pick the lower paying job.
Metro, back me up this....
Now, let's go down the logical path that follows: how important is Project 180 in creating a livable, walkable environment - the sort of urban neighborhood that will attract this up and coming workforce?

[BDP]

confusing one-way street system and bringing sanity

I don't have any problem with one way streets and they are pretty much a staple of most city cores. They do usually allow for better movement of traffic, timing of lights, pedestrian crossings, and expose traffic to commerce on two streets in a round trip instead of one. They also help public transit move more freely without competing with left hand turn back ups.

What makes our downtown streets confusing are the broken streets in combination with our current one way structure. The breaks in Main, Robinson, Park, and 5th, as well as the Colcord/Couch split are really what makes navigating downtown confusing to someone who is unfamiliar with it. I realize none of that is going to change, but that's why eliminating the one ways isn't going to make it less confusing in most cases, imo. It will just make it slower and maybe easier to find your way back when the street you're on ends or your forced to turn before you destination.

[G.Walker]

Its very important to attract young professionals, new major corporations will want to relocate, or expand their business in the central business district, once Project 180 is complete. This will give way to young professionals working for those companies, and boosting residential development. Now I am not talking about the residential developments like The Hill, or Block 42, and I am not talking about major high rise condominiums like The Austonian in Austin. But more realistic mid rise condominium develop that compliments our OKC central business district like this below:

[OKC@heart]

I for one think that the confusion of folks who are boosters of the growth of OKC and project 180, may have more to do with the terminology that was being used, rather than the result or hoped for outcome of project 180. When you use the word infrastructure it denotes not only roads, streets but utilities as well. Also the argument that it somehow would provide for land was a bit baffling to me as well, so if you would care to elaborate on how you felt that would take place it might help the rest of us follow your thinking. I am very excited to see this project take place!

[metro]

Our street, and parking infrastructure is out dated. There in no place downtown right now where we could build a new tower if we wanted to, without the restructuring of land area, demolishing old buildings, etc. Project 180 is a good urban renewal plan that will feed to that.

Again, I think you're misinterpreting our points, we all agree Project 180 is good and transformational, but to say we can't attract another corporation because of it is ludacris. You haven't provided one proof of evidence to back your claim.

Walker, I'm on your side on this one. Guys, Project 180 is eliminating the confusing one-way street system and bringing sanity - something that would be critical if our downtown were to enjoy the addition of another major corporate anchor. Likewise, our sidewalks and public spaces are a throwback to 1970s Urban Renewal - unfriendly and cold to pedestrians. And this creates a sense of place that is hostile and unwelcoming to the up and coming younger workforce. And I know Metro has been to the same seminars as I have were we've heard over and over again that the key to prospering in this new century is to create an environment where the younger workforce WANTS to work, wants to live, wants to play. And if they have a job offer in one city that pays more, but isn't where they want to be, and another job offer in another city that pays less but offers the lifestyle they want, they will likely pick the lower paying job.
Metro, back me up this....
Now, let's go down the logical path that follows: how important is Project 180 in creating a livable, walkable environment - the sort of urban neighborhood that will attract this up and coming workforce?

Steve, while I think ALL of us agree Project 180 is awesome and will be completely transformational, I still don't agree with GW's original post about how we can't attract corporations without it. Sure it will make it more lucrative, no one is questioning that, but to say we can't attract further development is nonsense. Sure it will help make downtown OKC more attractive for the creative class, as well as all classes in general. I'd even argue it will make downtown OKC more attractive to the other classes morseo than the young professionals. Take a look downtown, if not the majority, a good portion of us young professionals are the urban pioneers that are already down here. My suburban counterparts, people my parents age, etc. are the ones who barely get down here. I think when it's done, they will be completely blown away and visit more often.

Its very important to attract young professionals, new major corporations will want to relocate, or expand their business in the central business district, once Project 180 is complete. This will give way to young professionals working for those companies, and boosting residential development. Now I am not talking about the residential developments like The Hill, or Block 42, and I am not talking about major high rise condominiums like The Austonian in Austin. But more realistic mid rise condominium develop that compliments our OKC central business district like this below:

I don't need a lecture on luring young professionals, I am one and I used to be Executive Director of the city's underfunded young professionals organization and was involved in leadership and committee capacities for several years before that. Now I'm not saying I can't learn more about it, but I know more on the topic than the average joe blow. Again my point is that Project 180 IS a good project, however it would be pie in the sky were it not for the Devon Tower, a project you said is not as transformational. I don't see it that you can seperate the two considering there would not be the latter if not for the former. What is your hope for this thread?

[G.Walker]

I never said that Devon Tower has no impact on Project 180, I stated that Project 180 will have more effect on our cities central business district then any other project right now. I am not talking about Bricktown or nightlife for young professionals. I am talking about establishing major young professional workforce that is key for the future of the CBD. Devon Energy is a homegrown company, that was already located downtown, and decided to build a new headquarters. But you don't see any other major corporations outside Cklahoma, or major residential developers wanting to locate or expand in the OKC's CBD. Why? It's because when companies outside of Oklahoma look at downtown now, and its like they went back in time to 1975.

Project 180 is key for us to attract new major business and development, and I firmly believe we won't see any until Project 180 is complete.

[metro]

GW, I know your not talking about Bricktown or nightlife. Heck most of us downtown young professionals hang in Auto Alley or MidTown. Bricktown is a tourist trap. I realize you are talking about a MAJOR employer and not a Dave and Busters opening up shop. I think we'll see American Fidelity or other local major employers step up downtown before much longer.

[G.Walker]

Take Austin for example, below is a list from Commercial Real Estate Information and Construction Data | Emporis.com, which is a site that gives you construction status of major high rises in any city in the world. As you can see, 8 out of 10 of the tallest building in Austin were constructed within the last 5 years, shortly after a major streetscape project like Project 180, however this project in Austin was called Second Street District Streetscape Improvement Project, it wasn't until this project was completed that Austin underwent a major central business district development, here is the link for more info: City of Austin - Second Street District Streetscape Improvement Project

Tallest buildings
# Name Height Year Completed
01. The Austonian
208 m 2010

02. 360 Condominiums
172 m 2008

03. Frost Bank Tower
157 m 2004

04. Spring
132 m 2009

05. Ashton
127 m 2009

06. One Congress Plaza
121 m 1987

07. One American Center
121 m 1984

08. Four Seasons Residence..
120 m 2010

09. Austin Hilton Conventi..
115 m 2004

10. Legacy On The Lake
103 m 2008

[Kerry]

I will second Metro's comment. Project 180 is going to be a huge improvement but downtown OKC would survive without it. Two-way streets downtown will have a very positive impact but Tyco is going to say, "Look two-way street, let move there."

G.W. - I hope you are correct and we see major development downtown after Project 180 is completed. I still think the street car will creat more development than anything. I guess we will know the answer in 5 years. I am sure we will all still be here debating the same topics.

[OKC@heart]

I think there is danger is identifying a single item as a stimulus for the type of growth that Austin has seen in their CBD. There are far too many contributing factors that play into the demand and climate (financially) at the time that drove the developments.

The greatest thing is that right now in OKC it is not just project 180 alone but we also have the street cars, and MAPS III that will all contribute and amplify the positive effect on the CBD. We have serious reason to be poitive about the direction things are going, yet we need to be looking for the next elements that need to be addressed to raise the bar.

[metro]

I agree, you can't directly attribute the development in Austin solely on streetscape improvements alone. Austin had already been building up momentum and there are countless more high tech and white collar jobs in Austin than OKC. Again SURE the streetscaping helped, but it in in of itself wasn't the only catalyst for new development. It was also during the peak of condo speculation in the U.S. and funds were easily available. We have no way to prove that it would not have happened regardless of the streetscape project.

GW, yes most of us are very familiar with Emporis, you're preaching to the choir on OKCTalk. Your title of this thread states Project 180 "saved" us, and I simply agree to disagree. I think it helps catapult us further.

[Steve]

"Gee, the sky is beautiful shade of indigo."
"No, you're all wrong. It's just blue."
"But don't think it's beautiful?"
"Maybe, but it's just blue."
Ah yes, another day on OKC Talk....