On Cue Buys Church Property

[Keith]

Written by Dana Williamson (Article edited to post on okctalk)
www.baptistmessenger.com

Oklahoma City, Southwood has sold its property at S.W. 59th and Western and is planning a move west. "We talked and preached about it all summer," said pastor Rich Dunbar, "but the actual decisions have come about rather quickly.

Dunbar said when the church decided to sell its property, an offer came within two days.

"The day after we voted to accept an offer of $475,000, and authorized our trustees to sign that or any other bid we received that might be better, I got a call from the company across the street from the church asking to meet with me," he said.

Dunbar said he met with the company at 2 p.m., and walked out with a signed contract for $725,000 at 2:30.

The $725,000 paid off the loan on Southwood's new Falls Creek cabin, which was dedicated last May, leaving the church free of that debt, but in need of funds to purchase property and build new facilities.

Dunbar noted that the name on the sign at the Falls Creek cabin will remain "Southwood OKC Askins Conference Center" as a memorial to what the Lord did through Southwood.

"We aren't ashamed of our heritage," Dunbar declared. "We just need a fresh start.

Dunbar said after talking with Capital Association Director of Missions Tim Russell, he is looking at property in east Mustang, about eight miles from the church's present location, for a new site. He noted that area is growing rapidly and would be a good place for a fresh start.

And the reason for the move.

"We have become largely irrelevant in our community," Dunbar explained. "Southwood has been declining for 20-plus years. When I came a little over two years ago, we were running about 80. We went up to almost 200 in Sunday School, but have started to decline again.

He said a lot of the families the church reached from farther south don't feel comfortable bringing their children to the building because of the crime and vagrancy in the area.

"That's an ongoing thing we face in our location," Dunbar said. "And the cost of upkeep on the building, including insurance, is going through the roof."

Dunbar said the last service in the current facility will be Dec. 31, with Feb. 6 being the date everything has to be out of the building.

"We will make pews, chairs, sound equipment and other items available for what people can afford," Dunbar said. "We aren't going to move any of those things into the new building."

Note: The church is located on the SW corner of SW.59 & Western. The $475,000 bid they received was from 7-11, who wanted to tear the church down and build a 7-11. The $725,000 bid came from On Cue, the new convenience store that is being built across the street (east) of the church. On Cue did not want 7-11 to purchase the property, because that would mean more competition for On Cue. At this time, a decision has not been made by On Cue, as to what they will use the church property for.

[Easy180]

Probably a smart move to relocate...Grandad's church is in that area and it has been on the decline for years as well

[brianinok]

While I don't necessarily disagree with a church moving to the suburbs, especially if a majority of their attendees come from there, I can't help but wonder why they don't try to be relevent in their communities. Why don't they try to be relevent in the neighborhood God has placed them in? Just look at Northwest Baptist for an example of a church that has decided to be relevent to their neighbors.

[Easy180]

Well for one you would need to start having the sermon in Spanish with all of the Hispanics in that area especially north of 59th...If that's really not high on their list then moving seems to be the only alternative

[jbrown84]

Just look at Northwest Baptist for an example of a church that has decided to be relevent to their neighbors.

Thank you for mentioning my church in this regard. That has really been part of our mission.

[metro]

"We have become largely irrelevant in our community," Dunbar explained. "Southwood has been declining for 20-plus years.

Well said Brian, in response to the above quote. That line almost floors me. It's like "Did you hear what you just said??". Unfortunately thats the fate of alot of churches in America today. I consult with churches on almost a daily basis in my line of work. One thing that I always try to mention that I heard from the pastor at NW Baptist (that was said to him by another consultant) is "If you're church closed it's doors tomorrow, would the community around you miss you?". When this was said by a consultant to NW Baptist ( a small church on the decline ) it hit them hard. Now they are a thriving inner city church with 6 different congregations (Korean, Hip Hop/Urban, Spanish, and more). Unfortunately most churches that choose not to adapt to their surroundings will be forced to close their doors in a few years, or "white flight" to the suburbs. It's sad to hear stories like this.

[jbrown84]

NW Baptist ( a small church on the decline )

We never dipped below 800 or so in Sunday attendance, which is still a large church by most standards, but we certainly would have if better attempts weren't made to reach our neighborhood. That's not to say that we were ignoring them up to that point. We already had ethnic congregations (mostly Asian) under the previous pastor (Anthony Jordan of BGCO fame), as well as a Bus Ministry to bring people (mostly kids) to church who had no other transportation, and our annual Homeless Meal is a 20 year tradition. But since we made a conscious choice to stay in the inner city, we have launched new programs and ministries for single moms, teens in the "urban" culture, after school programs, recreation, and service projects in area schools. I'm glad to see that people have noticed us.

[metro]

Glad to hear jbrown. I'm not Baptist or any denomination so I don't keep up with who's who or all the details. I did notice you guys though but as I said I consult with tens if not hundreds of churches a day. It's just sad the church in the article (or most small churches on the decline) doesn't think more like your church and accept their surroundings.

[Easy180]

So instead of moving they should switch to all Spanish sermons?...They are leaving because of consistent declining membership and increased crime in that area

Metro for someone that attends a huge "white flight" church you shouldn't be too judgemental on them relocating to a nicer area for the benefit of their current members and the future of their church

[metro]

So instead of moving they should switch to all Spanish sermons?...They are leaving because of consistent declining membership and increased crime in that area

Metro for someone that attends a huge "white flight" church you shouldn't be too judgemental on them relocating to a nicer area for the benefit of their current members and the future of their church

Easy 180, let me clear a few things up. I never suggested they should switch to all Spanish sermons, nor hinted at it. Perhaps I was a little judgemental, but read the line I quoted. Additionally, I said I'm speaking from experience from consulting with churches (do you have experience in this field?) I did state they could accept to reach out to the community their in, after all that is what we the church is called to do, reach out to our neighbors. If everyone leaves, then who will reach the abandoned. Does that mean they need to reach out to the Hispanic community absolutely (look at the area around them). Jesus came for the hurt, not the well. I'm not saying staying is the right thing for them, perhaps moving is what God's will is for them. Since I consult for churches, I can speak from experience. Most churches just "give up" and don't try to reach out to their community, that is why so many churches are on the decline, because they cater to their members, not the lost or seeking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus hung out with the outcasts, not pleasing the pharisee's and priests. In fact, the only time Jesus' had an outburst of anger was with the priests and drove them out of the temple.

Secondly, if you want to consider Lifechurch.tv a "white flight" church, that is your own judgement against it. Lifechurch.tv was founded in the Edmond area so I'm not sure how it's a "white flight" church considering it stayed and will be staying with it's roots where it's founded. In fact, it's methods are doing so well it is one of the top 3 fastest growing churches in the country. Sounds to me like they did some pretty good adapting to our community if you ask me. In fact we have 10 campuses already and are fixing to launch 6 (3 fixing to be 4 in the okc metro) or more next year, not too mention the thousands we reach across the globe via internet in downloadable podcasts and sermons. Our congregation is very diversified from all walks of life, rich, poor, middle class, hispanics, asians, africans, african americans, russians, freaks & outcasts, rich yuppies, blue collar, white collar (pretty much a slice of everything in America) etc. Our worship leader is even an African American as well as one of our regional pastors and at least one of our assistant campus pastors is as well. I invite you to join us for one of our Christmas services this weekend. The North OKC Campus (original campus) has 6 services to choose from. I'll be at the 5:30pm on Saturday if you'd like to join and then you can judge based on the experience. Like any megachurch, there are automatic stereotypes and criticisms about the church, its members, and of course, its' pastor; and yours are expected and understood. If you attend a service, you will see the service and teaching is more about the non-believer than the believer. Craig makes us "members" more uncomfortable (and I'm thankful everyday for it) than for the non-believers. After all, that's what it's really all about isn't it?

[jbrown84]

It's just sad the church in the article (or most small churches on the decline) doesn't think more like your church and accept their surroundings.

It really is.

And I agree LifeChurch (sorry I refuse to put the silly ".tv" on the end) is not a "white flight" church at all. It is very diverse and is a new church that has always been where it started and is always expanding, including to very "unchurched" places like the Phoenix area.

The big "white flight" churches that I can think of would be Putnam City Baptist (didn't really help them much), Crossings Community, St. Elijah Orthodox, and Quail Springs Baptist. And by "white flight" I mean churches that bailed on the inner city.

[Martin]

i didn't know that lifechurch offered services in spanish. i also didn't realize that they had inner-city locations. -M

[Easy180]

So Metro as a member of Southwoods you would prefer them to stay in that decaying area instead of moving just 8 miles west to a much nicer area with a new building?...Why not just allow the existing Spanish speaking churches in that neighborhood to preach the word to the increasing hispanic population


If you were a member voting which box would you check?...My money is on the yes to move

[metro]

Well I can't say because I'm not a member of Southwoods, however, last time I checked, God wasn't about money. Jesus never traveled where the money was, never took an offering. In fact, he usually hung out with the outcasts, the prostitutes, the lepers, the lame, deaf, mute, sick. Which in those times where usually outside the city walls. In fact, he was born in a stinky, mangy barn because no one else would let them stay anywhere else. He wasn't born like most Kings in a palace or in some extravagant house or hospital. He was born with animals in a barn, the lowest of the low so that no one may ever feel that they are too low, or not good enough for him.

As far as the take the money and run to a new building statement; again, refer to my statement above where the only time Jesus had an outburst of anger was when he threw the priests and "holy people" out of the temple for making money, gambling, etc on the church property (the temple on the mount). I never said it was a right or wrong situation, I simply said and I repeat SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE WITH WORKING WITH CHURCHES, many churches have a defeatest attitude. God placed them in that neighborhood for a reason, I bet that reason was to reach out to the area around them and perhaps even beyond. Never claimed to judge that it was wrong for them to move. Perhaps God is calling them to minister to a new area and that's great! All I'm saying is not one place in God's word do you find that church is about US and our "comfortable spiritual needs". You will find countless times that it is about serving those around us.

Pastor Craig (lifechurch) made a very interesting statement tonight at church. Basically the whole lesson was on Actions Speak Louder Than Words. (And forgive me if I forget anything or don't quote exact due to my non perfect mind however anyone can watch or download the teaching online anonymously at Welcome to LifeChurch.tv | LifeChurch.tv) He taught a real dynamic lesson on Christmas and tied it in with clips from all the famous Christmas movies. He showed us what we are "taught" by media that Christmas is all about (Santa, toys, presents, receiving, trees, lights, etc.). Sadly enough after researching endlessly, the only clip from a Christmas movie that actually talked about the true meaning of Christmas was Christmas with Charlie Brown cartoon. Towards the end Linus (I think that is his name) read the scripture about Jesus' birth. Craig mentioned that so many people get caught up in the busyness of the holidays that we forget the true meaning of Christmas. Yes, some say "Jesus is The Reason For the Season", however with everything in him, he stated that he believes that WE are the reason for the season (not meaning that in a selfish way about ourselves although many of us act selfish during the holidays, what present am I getting? I know I have been guilty at times). Yes, Christ was born and we should celebrate it, however the REASON Jesus came is because we are a sinful people, he came to give us hope. He was born for US. Too often, we as "Christians" say Jesus is the Reason For The Season, but yet, we barely if at all take time to pray, read our Bible, serve others, tell our kids the true meaning of Christmas.

It appears your trying to start a "Lifechurch.tv" debacle like Mid likes to do as well. That's fine. I can deal with that and understand your viewpoints. Like I mentioned before megachurches get criticized for numerous reasons and always will be. With success comes hate. Often times, it's usually from people who never have gone to one service, or ever met the pastor.

[Easy180]

metro...I am definitely not trying to make this an argument about lifechurch...been done before...I just took exception to you saying it's unfortunate for them to white flight to the burbs when you attend a megachurch in the burbs which consists mostly of white flighters

What's unfortunate is the decay of that area around them...20+ years of declining membership seems enough evidence to me for a need to relocate

Also you never answered my question...If you were a member there what would you have voted?

Not trying to argue with you metro just trying to figure out where you are coming from is all

[Patrick]

I'm also a member at Northwest Baptist.

Our church was declining until we decided that we weren't moving, and we were going to try to reach our community.

My buddy jbrown, whose dad is pretty prominent at the church, basically said it all. You either make changes to try to reach your community, you move, or you die.

Northwest now has its main campus with an average weekly attendance of around 650-700, a North satellite campus on NW Expressway and Council with attendance around 150, a Hispanic Church with attendance around 50+, a Korean congregation with around 150, and a Vietnamese church which outgrew our chapel and recently purchased an old church property on NW 23rd west of MacArthur.

Because there is a wide range of nationalities in our community, we've decided to reach them.

I have a friend that goes to Trinity Baptist, now known as Trinity International Baptist Church.....near NW 23rd and Classen. They are also thriving because they've decided to reach the community where they reside.

The reason Southwood was declining was because they were trying to reach the elderly Caucasian group, which simply doesn't exist in their community any longer.

[jbrown84]

Yes, Trinity is also doing much better lately. They are smack dab in the Asian District and have done a good job reaching that community. My mom grew up there and grandpa still goes there.

[Patrick]

Yes, Trinity is also doing much better lately. They are smack dab in the Asian District and have done a good job reaching that community. My mom grew up there and grandpa still goes there.

Trinity reminds me a lot of Northwest, except, they probably declined more than Northwest did. But, they finally realized that they either needed to compete or retreat, so they completely changed the mission of their church, even changing their name to reflect it.

By the way, I forgot to mention one other group we now have....All Nations Church, which is geared to reach people of all nations, a truely international congregation, led by Missions Pastor Kirk Goss.

So, that means Northwest has 6 congregations: Central Campus, North Sattelite Campus, Korean, Vietnamese (now indepedently known as Vietnamese Community Church), Hispanic, and All Nations Church.

[jbrown84]

Yeah Trinity was really on the verge of not existing. Northwest never came close to that.

[metro]

metro...I am definitely not trying to make this an argument about lifechurch...been done before...I just took exception to you saying it's unfortunate for them to white flight to the burbs when you attend a megachurch in the burbs which consists mostly of white flighters

What's unfortunate is the decay of that area around them...20+ years of declining membership seems enough evidence to me for a need to relocate

Also you never answered my question...If you were a member there what would you have voted?

Not trying to argue with you metro just trying to figure out where you are coming from is all

Easy180 my apologies then. I will try my best to answer your questions. If I was a member of Southwoods, I would vote to stay. If the church is on the decline they are probably doing something wrong. Jesus says to add to your numbers daily. I doubt he was lying or "joking", I doubt it was a metaphor either.

I still disagree with you about Lifechurch being a "white flight" church. Even others who don't attend there have said it's not a white flight church. It has always stuck with its' roots. The only time we moved our original campus is when we outgrew the "leased" facility we were in when the church first started. When you take a church from 20 to almost 20,000 in less than 10 years time , at it's main location alone (not including other campuses or people on the internet), you kind of have to get a bigger building. And even when we did that, it was just down the street. At that time, it was almost considered "the country", now suburban development is starting to pop up around the area, but there is still some farmland across the street. Again, the whole mainly caucasian congregation thing, I'm not buying and neither were others as stated above. The church is very diverse and has all walks of life at all locations. This isn't even an argument on this issue. Hope this clarifies your questions.

[jbrown84]

I think the point is that they should never have allowed it to get to the point where it was a vote to leave or die.

[Easy180]

jbrown...How could they have prevented the flood of Hispanics and the overall detoriation of that area?....20+ straight years of their members going elsewhere isn't as much of a reflection on the church, but of that area

My grandad's church is in the S 36th and Penn area and it has gone through the same decline as Southwood...They have reached out to the area time and time again w/o success and they are down to less than 75 members

I can just understand after 20 years they have finally realized the inevitable and are moving to greener pastures given the sales opportunity...It seems to me sticking it out for that long shows resolve...They could have easily thrown in the towel and relocated long ago

metro...As you know I have never attended Lifechurch, but I do know where it is and I find it hard to believe that that particular location isn't comprised of at least 80% whites...Edmond I believe is 75% white and Deer Creek is likely higher than that...So I think diverse is too strong a word..I know Lifechurch has never relocated, but my point is they are in the suburbs surrounded by people that "fled" there...Who is to say they won't be faced with a similar problem 30 years from now and find themselves facing this difficult position

[metro]

I doubt lifechurch will ever have that problem because we are diverse and growing enough where I dont see that happening. On top of that. We are "One Church In Multiple Locations " we say. We have many locations and our main focus is to make a difference on the community around us. If the community changes, we'll change. I think from what little you know about Lifechurch you should know that it is definitely about change and willing to change to adapt to the times and location. I'm a Native American and I drive from Bethany to lifechurch every week. People drive from all over the state and sometimes people come from out of state just to check it out just to attend so don't think we're pulling from a typical demographic.

As far as Southwood goes, I hope they make the right decision. jbrown said it well with "I think the point is that they should never have allowed it to get to the point where it was a vote to leave or die."

[Easy180]

That's cool metro...Guess we just have two different takes on what Southwoods chose to do....My good friends attend Lifechurch there as well and they speak highly of it also

[jbrown84]

jbrown...How could they have prevented the flood of Hispanics and the overall detoriation of that area?....20+ straight years of their members going elsewhere isn't as much of a reflection on the church, but of that area.

I'm not saying they should have prevented the community from changing, but that they should have changed along with it. Often it's difficult for the kind of people that are still in those small churches to accept into the church the kind of people that live around them, but it's something they could have done. Those people need churches too.