I240 Revitalization Efforts

[ljbab728]

Retail shining crew forming for Interstate 240, south Oklahoma City loop | News OK

[bombermwc]

Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....

[Larry OKC]

There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you bombermwc

[Spartan]

Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....

Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning

[kevinpate]

There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you bombermwc

But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.
Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.
Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.

[ljbab728]

Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning

Wrong, Spartan. The "sprawl" is already there and they are hoping to reinvigorate that area. They aren't planning any developments further out to contribute to sprawl. Did you note that they are working with the ULI? You have no idea what they are planning and are already panning it. Would you prefer that the area become a wasteland? Any freeway is part of a face of OKC whether it's urban or not and it needs to both look and be successful.

[Brett]

I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?

[Larry OKC]

But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.
Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.
Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.

You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring

[SoonerDave]

The development along I-240 lost quite a bit of steam (what didn't) with the economic meltdown. The 240 Penn Plaza was going to expand to the immediate west, and there was also talk of Home Depot relocating (due to the interchange rebuild) about three miles west to the Walnut Creek plaza, but all those things more or less fizzled. The interchange rebuild, last I heard, was altered such that HD no longer needs to move, but I've heard nothing new about Penn Plaza expanding.

Hobby Lobby's entrance into Walnut Creek has perked up that center more than I expected, but there are still plenty of unoccupied spaces in that mall. I'm not at all convince Conn's is long for the OKC market, esp. given they've already closed their Edmond location and I've heard some folks have been burned by their limited- or no-returns policy. Can't vouch for that either way, as I've never really shopped there.

The problem for I-240 redevelopment is, IMHO, the stretch that starts approximately a half-mile west of Penn and extends to May on the south side of the expressway. That apartment complex was a rough area back when my wife lived there back in her single days, and it seems rare to go a week without hearing about some sort of criminal activity. Same goes for that nasty little hotel just east of May behind the out-of-business gas station. The abandoned Skaggs/Albertsons on the NE corner of that intersection is already a hard sell, and the strip mall that existed to its south and east was converted to storage facilities about two years ago.

Crossroads is an intractable problem, unfortunately, as we've seen nothing to indicate the new owners are really doing anything with the property. The I-240 interchange rebuild, over the long haul, also casts a shadow over what can be done around that movie theater and the Texas RoadHouse that sits on the outparcels just east of the hotels. Best Buy has moved out of their big location, and I can't see it becoming retail again anytime soon.

I have a feeling OKC and the S. OKC Chamber missed a chance to manage the 240 corridor by not aggressively seeking out the same kinds of incentives Moore did for its shops, and the rest, as they say, is history. I certainly won't throw dirt on the area, but I also think it will take some creative effort to get interest in the area circulating again. I certainly hope they're successful.

[kevinpate]

You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring

I don't know how CR mall shoppes do it, but many there in 07 and before continue to go on without anchors bringing foot traffic. The anchors have been gone a few years now and somehow enough folks still come to help the small guys rock along. Some of those have left as well but others seem to keep on plugging. I don't know if they have such strong following, or if there are that many people who go there purely from habit, but folk still go. I used to be among them but not so much these days.

[catch22]

I think some of those stores might be locked in to leases and will probably move out as leases expire, unless something turns around pretty quick.

[Questor]

SoonerDave interesting you mention the apartments. I heard a rumor a while back that someone wanted to raze them and put in more shopping all along that area. No idea how true that might be.

Crossroads Mall reminds me of Six Flags Mall in Arlington... Just an absolute disaster. Terrible and no idea what might make it better.

[SoonerBoy18]

It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth

[megax11]

I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.

With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.

Actions speak louder than words.

[ljbab728]

I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.

With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.

Actions speak louder than words.

An update.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369

As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.

[flintysooner]

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369
Humphreys raises question

That prompted former Oklahoma City mayor and developer Kirk Humphreys to ask Eitler from the audience what could be done about aggressive retail recruitment by neighboring municipalities Midwest City and Moore “throwing money at retailers, giving them money they can't refuse.”

Humphreys said, “It's almost like the free enterprise system is competing with the governments. It's pretty blatant. I don't think a nuclear strike is an option.”

Moore has only passed 4 sales tax incentive packages.

Shops at Moore received one which has now expired. I believe the payout was about 1/2 of the maximum. And Shops at Moore provided a pretty nice power center to replace a rather blighted 1/2 mile on I-35.

Target only opened 21 stores in 2011 and one was in Moore only because of the incentive. If the incentive had not been offered there were plenty of other places in the United States that were offering far better packages just to get jobs.

The Imax received a package.

The most recent is for Dick's which will only be realized if there is a store built.

If you include what was paid to Shops at Moore plus the maximum of the other 3 it sums to about $8 Million or a little less.

Oklahoma City spent $3.9 Million on infrastructure and gave a $5.5 Million sales tax package to the Outlet Mall project alone. As stated in the article the Bass Pro incentive was about $17 Million.

[jn1780]

nm double post

[jn1780]

It was tax incentives AND the fact that the stores wanted to build closer to where the money was. If OKC offered the same amount of tax incentives as Moore the retail shops would have still choose Moore or not built at all.

The city is also competing with itself with all its efforts to revitalize the urban core. So it kind of has two competing ideas going on at the same time.

It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth

Yeah, I wonder how big a difference the new I-40 and boulevard will make when everything is completed.

[Spartan]

Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.

[GaryOKC6]

Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

[lasomeday]

An update.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institu...rticle/3656369

As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.

The planning department can help in changing zoning rules. They should be contacted and involved in all major developments private or public.

[Larry OKC]

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

Do you have any links on that? The last I read on it (several years ago now) indicated otherwise. It was considered a failure to the extent that it would be cited by those opposed to their communities offering similar incentives to bring Bass Pro. It is fairly well documented that Bass Pro over promises and under delivers in community after community. Part of the OKC deal:

"The PGAV study, which was approved by the city council unanimously in November 2001, promised the city up to 920 new jobs..."

Along with the financial promises made, how many employees does the OKC Bass Pro have? In explaining away the missed projections, Bass Pro used excuses like it being a small store, not having the amenities needed etc. Weren't those factors taken into consideration when the projections were made? Before it opened, Bass Pro made several changes to the building adding to the cost (and rent) yet they still missed projections by multi-millions. Like I said, maybe it turned around and what you said may now be true. I did a google search for updated info and dug 10 pages deep in various searches but didn't come up with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

[Spartan]

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter.

More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target).

And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass.

So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this.

Metro equality is becoming a problem, there is a growing disparity between north and south in OKC, and this should be addressed, as should sales tax seepage on the south side of the metro. We do not need a temporary patch, and don't need to solve the problem by exacerbating it. When I-240 came into existence, the southside's wealth concentration moved south and you saw areas between downtown and 74th begin to rapidly deteriorate. I believe in south-side revitalization, and I believe that has to happen by taking advantage of unique opportunities along 44th.

[ljbab728]

Spartan, you seem to be of the opinion that 44th has to compete against I240 and it's one or the other. That's no more true than saying Midtown has to compete with Deep Deuce. Letting one area go downhill just to build up another area makes no sense at all, especially when the area you want to abandon is as "in your face" as I240.

[Spartan]

I agree that petty no-sum politics aren't the way to go. The difference though is that downtown is a lot more established and on a lot better footing than the south side right now.