Can OKC Lure Southwest Airlines Hub and Headquarters From Dallas??

[JOHNINSOKC]

This is one thing that could solve the problem between Love Field and DFW International Airport. This was mentioned on the old Oklahomasown forum a couple of years back as a April Fools joke that OKC had landed the entire Southwest operation. Initially, I was ecstatic, then I realized it was a joke. What do you all think are the chances of OKC pulling this off? I say it's realistic if our city leaders and chamber do everything possible to give Southwest a deal they could not refuse. We don't have crowded airspace here and the distance to the other cities around the country would not change much since we are basically in the same region as Dallas. Although it would be great to get America West, I think OKC should consider every possible option for increased air service.

[mranderson]

I remember that joke. I too was fooled.

I agree the city needs to explore ALL areas. Even approaching companies that appear to not be looking for a move or expansion. THAT is how you attract business. It is called "cold calling."

Can Oklahoma City lure Southwest Airlines headquarters? I would place the odds at -1,000%. Herb Kelleher, the founder of Southwest, is a born and bred Texan and is in love with the Dallas area. I would guess he would say "over my dead body." A hub? Possible but doubtful.

We need to talk to these other airlines... Even if they are not looking to build a new hub. Who knows. Maybe we can give them the insentive to do it. We just need to try.

After all. There are expressions in sales. "If you don't make calls, you don't make sales." And, there is a theory that for every 25 sales calls a salesperson makes, he or she closes only one.

[JOHNINSOKC]

Very well said mranderson! You have many good points. I wish there was a way that OKC could get out of the shadow of the Metroplex. Although I like the Dallas area, it would be thrilling to lure one of their headquarters to OKC. I know luring American Airlines away is NOT possible. Perhaps we could get a Southwest maintenance center.

[Karried]

I don't know about cold calling anymore - it used to be a very popular sales technique ( popular with telemarketers) but not with consumers hence the Do not call list ....

I think relationships and making contacts, being visible and assertive and targeting the market that has the most need for your service is a better bet than cold calling. I think that might apply here as well, the squeaky wheel get the grease - anything is better than sitting back and doing nothing or just waiting for someone to call.

[mranderson]

Maybe "cold calling" is an obsolete term. I use it for both phone and in person lead generation. Maybe the term canvising is more appropriate as the contacts would be in person.

"networking" as it is calling (another term I dispise) does not work.

[venture]

Like mranderson said...Herb is a Texan...Connie and the rest of the gang in charge will do what Herb wants. The airline was born in Dallas at Love Field, NYSE symbol is LUV, and they've played by the Wright Amendment rules since day 1.

Unfortunately OKC has one big strike against it when it comes to a substantial airline base here...O&D traffic. There is not enough of it to justify a hub or focus city operation. Southwest has slowly be cutting their service levels back in OKC over the years to. Honestly, we should just be happy to have one of their reservation centers left here as they have scaled back over the years.

As far as a mx (maintenance) facility...Southwest has moved more to an outsourcing platform and doesn't have much in house. However, I do like the idea of trying to get some mx work here. I think the key would be continue to work with companies like AAR in expanding their facilities here. They were key in OKC getting RenoAir service here...and they do a lot of work for Alaska; which may provide an opportunity for some west coast flying.

[fromdust]

how does the airport in birmingham have an international flight to monteal? does it have to do with passenger count? 1,241,351 to our 3, 379,883. that couldnt be the reason. does anybody know.

[floater]

Maybe we can find out if Birmingham has a notable population of Franco-Canadians or -Americans...

[floater]

France has a consulate in Birmingham...

[fromdust]

oh.

[floater]

The French were early settlers of Alabama...

http://www.alabamastuff.com/v&oc.html

From wikipedia:

"...Disregarding these claims, however, the French in 1702 settled on the Mobile river and there erected Fort Louis, which for the next nine years was the seat of government of Louisiana. In 1711 Fort Louis was abandoned to the floods of the river, and on higher ground was built Fort Conde, the germ of the present city of Mobile, and the first permanent white settlement in Alabama. Later, on account of the intrigues of the English traders with the Indians, the French as a means of defence established the military posts of Fort Toulouse, near the junction of the Coosa and Tallapoosa rivers, and Fort Tombecbe on the Tombigbee River...."

Okay,

[brianinok]

Bill Targets Love Field

By Chris Casteel
The Oklahoman

WASHINGTON - U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe said Wednesday that a bill he wrote to close the Love Field airport in Dallas to commercial traffic is aimed at protecting American Airlines and that carrier's flights to Oklahoma.

Inhofe, R-Tulsa, said his legislation, introduced Tuesday, is a direct response to a bill filed by Nevada Sen. John Ensign to allow nonstop flights from Love Field to all states, repealing restrictions that have been in place since 1979 that allow nonstop flights only to Texas and seven nearby states.

The Ensign legislation would help Southwest Airlines, which flies out of Love Field, and it is being opposed by American Airlines, which has a hub at the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport.

Southwest Airlines released a statement Tuesday in support of the Ensign legislation, saying it was "another significant step toward the ultimate goal of opening the skies for greater access to low fares as a result of unfettered airline competition."

The airline said the restrictions -- put in place to help the DFW airport -- cost travelers in the United States about $700 million in fares each year.

But American Airlines Senior Vice President of Government Affairs Will Ris said in a prepared statement that the Ensign legislation would reverse "sound public policy."

Ris applauded the legislation introduced by Inhofe and Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin.

"The senators' bill drives home the fact that North Texas airline service has been truly open to competition for decades," Ris said. "Southwest has always had the option to fly nationally anywhere it wants at whatever prices it chooses from the region's airport, DFW International Airport -- just like every other airline."

Inhofe said Ensign's bill would pressure American Airlines to fragment their base of operation at DFW by splitting flights between Love Field and DFW.

"This would raise costs and jeopardize existing Oklahoma City, Lawton and Tulsa air service to Dallas," Inhofe said. "As an individual who has passed through Love Field on many occasions, I can say that Southwest operates a very efficient and successful airline and one that I respect very much. That being said, American Airlines is Tulsa's largest employer, and I have a responsibility to protect not only Oklahoma jobs but also continuing air service to our communities."

In a prepared statement, Ensign, a Republican, called the matter "a free-market issue with dramatic ramifications not just for Texas but for passengers throughout the entire country."

He said, "Customers, in this case airline passengers, benefit when competition is allowed in a free market. It is time for the federal government to get out of the way, allow free-market competition and let the customers enjoy increased options and lower fares."






This is an interesting piece to the puzzle. If Inhofe's bill passed, what would this do to Southwest? I suppose they would have to move to DFW, which would allow them to fly anywhere from Dallas. But, it has higher gate fees.

[venture]

DFW Airport has offered to build Southwest their own terminal, free of charge, and many other incentives to get them to move...but its been a no go with LUV. There are also two or three other bills that have been introduced that would open up Love Field to the lower 48 and the other to all 50 states.

My exact position on this is in the middle to where the Fed should get out of controlling this local airport and let Dallas handle it. Dallas is large enough to support two airports like Chicago, New York, Washington, LA, etc. However, the local government should be allowed to regulate it like they do in Long Beach, CA - they have their own slot program to control access.

On the flip side...Southwest has been trying to get what they want a lot lately. They are threatening Sea-Tac Airport to move to Boeing Field if gate fees don't come down. And lets be honest...Southwest has been cutting back in Oklahoma...and American is up to the maximum number of mainline flights they can have in OKC. This is because it is ground handled by American Eagle and they are only allowed a max of 6 mainline flights a day - which they have...though they could bring a larger plane in.

Opening or closing Love Field and the effect on Oklahoma is up in the air, so to say. Opening Love may force weaker routes, not specifically Oklahoma, to be dropped for airlines to flood in there to compete. It may also cause Southwest to continue to cut back in Oklahoma as they will have less connecting passengers in this state doing the "Texas two-step." Closing Love may have the same effect where Southwest is concerned. The effect on American is unknown.

[brianinok]

"...and American is up to the maximum number of mainline flights they can have in OKC. This is because it is ground handled by American Eagle and they are only allowed a max of 6 mainline flights a day - which they have...though they could bring a larger plane in."
_______________________________

Can you explain this? I didn't know that was the case. I figured that we had 6 because that is what we could support. I could be wrong, but it seems like before the onslaught of the RJ, American had quite a few mainline jets flying into OKC from Chicago and DFW, not to mention the 4 or 5 daily they had to St. Louis at one point. Why can't the start using American personnel in OKC and increase their mainline flights?

[venture]

OKC ground handling has gone through a lot of changes. Initially it use to be all AA ground crews. They expanded by one AA crew member to replace the RenoAir crews after that merger. Then when the TWA merger came to pass they had to integrate some of those folks into the mess. This is when we were seeing the 5 to 6 MD-80s to STL, 2 F-100s to Chicago, and a handful of mainline jets mixed in with a ton of Eagle planes to DFW. The STL service went away and Chicago went all Eagle, with more frequencies. They rationlized the DFW flights with a mainline/RJ mix product. With these changes they decided to outsource the operation to American Eagle (even though they are also owned by AMR Corp.) and eliminate the AA ground crews. Mainline AA scope clauses permit mainline metal to operate into an Eagle ran station up to 6 times per day before the operation would have to go back to mainline.

With AMR getting a narrow 05Q2 profit, I wouldn't expect any changes to go back to a mainline based ground crew. The station costs would increase with the higher pay rates and different work rules. OKC is not alone though...this has been the general trend throughout the industry. US Airways has a ground crew grouping called "Mainline Express". This allows mainline flights to operate in stations on a limited basis, much like the AA/Eagle arrangement. This was an improvement over US Airways Express stations which restrict any mainline flying to that station for more than 4 consecutive months and no more than 8 months in a calendar year. I would pay very close attention to this with the HP/US merger now less than 2 months away to see if any room is given on these scope restrictions. With OKC being an Express station for America West...and if they choose to staff it as Express with the new US Airways (right now they are outsourced to Continental)...then that would eliminate a lot of possibilities for mainline metal here until they change restrictions.

I probably lost you...if I did, just say so.

[JOHNINSOKC]

Why make an already crowded airport more crowded by taking in Southwest when you have a potentially better situation 200 miles to the north in OKC. By better, I mean the ability to grow tremendously with an airport that is 5th in the country in land area and a city that is pro-business. By relocating the hub to OKC, you end all of the drama associated with the Wright Amendment. One of these days, some of the DFW airline traffic will have to spill over to OKC. I believe OKC CAN be a hub city. Just look at Raleigh-Durham and Nashville. OKC is much larger than those two cities were back in the late 1980's when those cities became hubs for American Airlines. OKC can do anything it wants to. We are no longer a cowtown, we are a major metro area with well over 1 million residents. There are no excuses for OKC to get the short end of the stick on every economic development opportunity!!

[venture]

Why make an already crowded airport more crowded by taking in Southwest when you have a potentially better situation 200 miles to the north in OKC. By better, I mean the ability to grow tremendously with an airport that is 5th in the country in land area and a city that is pro-business. By relocating the hub to OKC, you end all of the drama associated with the Wright Amendment. One of these days, some of the DFW airline traffic will have to spill over to OKC. I believe OKC CAN be a hub city. Just look at Raleigh-Durham and Nashville. OKC is much larger than those two cities were back in the late 1980's when those cities became hubs for American Airlines. OKC can do anything it wants to. We are no longer a cowtown, we are a major metro area with well over 1 million residents. There are no excuses for OKC to get the short end of the stick on every economic development opportunity!!

Unfortunately, OKC does not have anywhere near the O&D (local air traffic) to support an operation for a hub. Yes the cost of doing business is low here, but unfortunately hubs also rely on significant local passenger traffic. You meantion BNA and RDU in your example. Both were once hubs and then cut. American had a fairly good sized operation in both cities - they cut Nashville and Southwest went in. Southwest fill in but no where near the frequency AA had before. Raleigh much the same. American cut the hub. Midway Airlines went in and couldn't make it work and went under. Southwest and American Eagle have gone in on some high O&D routes...but nothing to extreme it was before.

Let's look at other hubs that have closed...US Airways in Pittsburgh, America West in Columbus, Delta in Dallas, US Airways in Baltimore, the many hub attempts in Kansas City, and American even dehubbed St. Louis at one point but slowly increased it back up a bit. All these cities are larger than OKC.

OKC isn't getting the short end of the stick, they are just getting the service the market can support at this point. If the market could support more service, Southwest would have already launched service to places like Florida, Baltimore, and the west coast. They've done this in many other cities, but in OKC they are cutting back. The traffic isn't there to sustain a major operation - will it ever grow to be able to? Perhaps. However, the hub and spoke model is giving way to more O&D based - point to point - flying. If you follow the trend of all the Low Cost Carriers (LCCs)...that is where we are going. AirTran, JetBlue, Southwest, and even America West with their LAS O&D operation are focusing on O&D routes. Yes AirTran has a connecting hub in Atlanta, but a lot of the passengers are O&D passengers as well. When AirTran introducded nonstop service to Toledo OH from Atlanta...the O&D market went from around 50 passengers a day to nearly 230 a day. That would account for over half of the seats per day in the market, at that time, were passengers flying just between the two cities. This is why you see these airlines launching flights from places like Akron-Canton to New York and Baltimore, or JetBlue flying from a half dozen airports in California to major markets back east.

Other airlines have started to pick up on this...Northwest with thier "Heartland Strategy" adding nonstop flights from places like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Grand Rapids and Flint to cities like Washington, Las Vegas, and various Florida markets. American and Delta have been doing it out of Washington, New York and Boston to various markets east of the Mississippi...its a trend that will continue. Will there still be hubs? Yes. Unfortunately not every market can support numerous nonstop flights and will be required to have connecting opportunities. However, you will not likely see any new hubs be established until the capacity and cost issues facing the airlines get relaxed.

[JOHNINSOKC]

venture79, you make valid points, however, another problem is the lack of marketing our airport to not only the state, but the region. Our passenger traffic has real potential to be higher than it is. It puzzles me how all the other cities the size of ours always have more of everything. I hope the new airport director is from another progressive market that will bring new energy and ideas to our city. If every aspect of OKC was marketed better, we wouldn't have the problems we have landing major corporations. Market OKC better and the whole perspective changes for the CEO's that make decisions for company expansions. It's that simple!

[adaniel]

Ive been reading a lot of these posts concerning the airport and I think that citizens of OKC may be harming their airport more than anybody elese by driving to Dallas to catch flights. I live in Dallas so I don't know how much cheaper it is to fly out of DFW than OKC, but are the savings greater than the gas you'll burn up driving 400 miles roundtrip, paying for parking, and all the frustration trying to make a flight at an airport 3 hours away (and that's considering you don't get stuck in that horrendous traffic b/w Marrieta and Gainesvile)? The terminal could be gold plated but nobody is going to add flights to Will Rogers if the passenger count isn't there. If a frequent flyer who drives to Dallas just out of OKC just once or twice a year the counts could improve dramatically.

[brianinok]

venture79: you did not lose me, but could you do me a favor? Let us know what America West does with their ground crew after the merger. I wouldn't know where to find the information otherwise.

[jbrown84]

Other airlines have started to pick up on this...Northwest with thier "Heartland Strategy" adding nonstop flights from places like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Grand Rapids and Flint to cities like Washington, Las Vegas, and various Florida markets. American and Delta have been doing it out of Washington, New York and Boston to various markets east of the Mississippi...its a trend that will continue. Will there still be hubs? Yes. Unfortunately not every market can support numerous nonstop flights and will be required to have connecting opportunities. However, you will not likely see any new hubs be established until the capacity and cost issues facing the airlines get relaxed.

How are cities like Grand Rapids and Flint supporting these kind of flights if we can't? Those are not large cities.

[venture]

Johninsokc Said:

venture79, you make valid points, however, another problem is the lack of marketing our airport to not only the state, but the region. Our passenger traffic has real potential to be higher than it is. It puzzles me how all the other cities the size of ours always have more of everything. I hope the new airport director is from another progressive market that will bring new energy and ideas to our city.

Unfortunately for OKC...there isn't a wide market to advertise to with in a 2-3 hour drive. This is something other airports typically have...OKC doesn't. They can market to Tulsa, Wichita Falls, Wichita, Fort Smith, Ardmore and western Oklahoma...but thats really it. Unfortunately, Amarillo and Little Rock have Southwest, Wichita has AirTran, Southwest in Tulsa, etc...so the ability to draw traffic from these markets is very limited. This is where you have to take into account an airport's "catchment" area for potential traffic. The last city I worked in, Toledo Ohio, had a MSA of around 700,000 people...its catchment area though was over 1.5 million. It still only brought in 600,000 people a year in airport traffic...this was due mainly in part to its catchment area having other airports with low fare service. OKC has the same issue with what I mentioned above.

BrianinOK wrote:

venture79: you did not lose me, but could you do me a favor? Let us know what America West does with their ground crew after the merger. I wouldn't know where to find the information otherwise.

As soon as I hear of any changes, I will be the first to pass them on. Should know by September on the specifics of station operations as the merger will be official on the 15th of that month.


jbrown84 wrote:

How are cities like Grand Rapids and Flint supporting these kind of flights if we can't? Those are not large cities.

Grand Rapids is part of Northwest's Heartland program. Since that airline has a SIGNIFICANT frequent flyer base in the state of Michigan, they try to exploit it to keep competition out. They have been very successful in keep LCC operations out of Grand Rapids and running Independence Air out of Lansing. Flint has turned into another Akron-Canton thanks to AirTran. It has proven to be a wonderful alternative to Detroit Metro for residents of the northern Detroit burbs...especially the more wealthy ones. AirTran tried to do the same in Toledo to get the south side of Detroit, but that area is far lower in wealth and the Toledo market itself is very poor in yeilds and couldn't sustain it.

Having aggressive low cost carriers in your market can help a ton when it comes to getting nonstop service to cities not normally served. Southwest really is not aggressive in OKC so they don't count. Frontier is only going to bring Denver service, so that won't do much. America West/US Airways will bring some more nonstops but only to the east coast hubs at first. If OKC really wanted to get stuff growing, they need AirTran or JetBlue to step in and really shake things up.

[HKG_Flyer1]

Whatever chance we think we had at attracting additional economic activity from Southwest Airlines has been effectively scuttled by Sen. Inhofe.

His crazy bill to close Dallas Love Field (which appears to have been introduced at the direction of American Airlines) would effectively end all service between Oklahoma City and Dallas on Southwest, leaving American Airlines with a near monopoly.

This, in turn, could result in Oklahoma City potentially losing the existing Southwest Airlines reservation center.

Although I doubt very seriously whether Sen. Inhofe's bill will pass, I can't imagine Southwest wanting to increase its economic "footprint" in the State realizing the apparent hostility of Sen. Inhofe and his strong bias towards American Airlines.

Although it has been suggested that Southwest would simply move to DFW if Love were to close, it's not that simple. Southwest would have to spend millions to replicate its infrastructure at DFW. Also, DFW's fees are getting ready to skyrocket as a result of $3 billion in new development which primarily benefits American Airlines, but whose costs will be funded by all airlines at DFW. Finally, taxi times at DFW are extremely long, no matter where on the airport grounds one situates their terminal, this would make WN's short haul service significantly less attractive as a business proposition.

[mranderson]

Taxi times at DFW are between eight and ten minutes. No longer than most major airports.

Southwest is so sold on Texas, I feel they will pay the price. Do I see this costing Oklahoma City the reservation center? No. If we lose it, it would be due to the rising number of people smart enough to book online.

Yes. This bill is stupid and probably will not pass. However, keep in mind, the Wright amendment was just as stupid and it passed. If it does, I DO expect Bush to sign it into law since his state of residency is Texas.

[venture]

HKG Flyer 1 Posted:

Whatever chance we think we had at attracting additional economic activity from Southwest Airlines has been effectively scuttled by Sen. Inhofe.

His crazy bill to close Dallas Love Field (which appears to have been introduced at the direction of American Airlines) would effectively end all service between Oklahoma City and Dallas on Southwest, leaving American Airlines with a near monopoly.

This, in turn, could result in Oklahoma City potentially losing the existing Southwest Airlines reservation center.

Although I doubt very seriously whether Sen. Inhofe's bill will pass, I can't imagine Southwest wanting to increase its economic "footprint" in the State realizing the apparent hostility of Sen. Inhofe and his strong bias towards American Airlines.

Although it has been suggested that Southwest would simply move to DFW if Love were to close, it's not that simple. Southwest would have to spend millions to replicate its infrastructure at DFW. Also, DFW's fees are getting ready to skyrocket as a result of $3 billion in new development which primarily benefits American Airlines, but whose costs will be funded by all airlines at DFW. Finally, taxi times at DFW are extremely long, no matter where on the airport grounds one situates their terminal, this would make WN's short haul service significantly less attractive as a business proposition.

Couple points. You are exagerating things a bit. Southwest will not give up on Dallas...and they will always offer service to Oklahoma City from there. Keep in mind over the last few years Southwest has cut back OKC-DAL service from 8 flights to only 5 now.

Southwest has been offered numerous benefits from DFW Airport, including a terminal built for them free of charge. As far as taxi times...have you been to Atlanta or O'Hare recently? DFW is nothing close to those nightmares.

Mr Anderson Posted:

Taxi times at DFW are between eight and ten minutes. No longer than most major airports.

Southwest is so sold on Texas, I feel they will pay the price. Do I see this costing Oklahoma City the reservation center? No. If we lose it, it would be due to the rising number of people smart enough to book online.

Yes. This bill is stupid and probably will not pass. However, keep in mind, the Wright amendment was just as stupid and it passed. If it does, I DO expect Bush to sign it into law since his state of residency is Texas.

Sir we normally don't agree on much, but I'm with you here. The Res Center has already seen cuts, and they've closed others, just for the fact you posted - higher online sales. I also agree the bill won't pass...there are too many Love Field related bills right now its getting stupid.