Possible hotel/convention center and shopping mall coming to I-35.

[TheImmortal]

EDMOND - City council members are expected to vote Monday on taking another step in their fact-gathering mission to determine if a Tax Increment Financing district is right for Edmond.
The council has been presented paperwork to hire an attorney to assist the city in creating an increment or incentive district allowed under the Local Development Act. The concept is often referred to as a TIF district.

With a financing district, money from property or sales taxes is set aside to pay off bonds that are sold to finance infrastructure or other public improvements.

The financing doesn't touch tax money earned by the schools or the city, but focuses on future revenue.

Action on whether to hire an attorney for the plan is expected to be taken during the meeting that begins at 5:30 p.m. in council chambers at 20 S Littler.

Council members have said they want to explore the possibility of creating a financing district by hiring an attorney and forming a committee to review the concept.

Backers of a commercial development at Interstate 35 and Covell Road have individually talked to council members about possibly using TIF district money used on their project.

Developers want to build a hotel with a convention center and shopping mall with large department stores.

School board President Kathleen Duncan has already spoken out against the schools' tax money being used in the TIF district for fear it will have a negative financial impact on the schools.

The district is experiencing a population growth of an additional 600 students a year.

The council also will consider adding $120,000 to the fleet management fund because of high fuel costs.

More money is needed to keep city vehicles running through June 30, the end of the fiscal year.

Engineering for the widening of the next phase of Kelly Avenue, between Danforth and Coffee Creek roads, will be voted by the council.

The engineering cost is expected to be $328,910. A design plan is necessary for construction.

Edmond will pay 20 percent of estimated $8.3 million project. The Oklahoma Department of Transportation through the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments will pay 80 percent. The project is scheduled for 2010.

This project will make Kelly Avenue a four-lane divided roadway with left turn lanes at the side streets.

City officials plan to widen Kelly Avenue throughout the entire city.

[Patrick]

I bet Edmond city residents will love the concept of a large shopping mall.

[Midtowner]

This type of financing really irks me. This project would be 100% feasible without tax money. This is a shopping mall in Edmond read: GUARANTEED PROFIT! This is not the Skirvin.

TIF for this type of development is rotten to the core. It really is stealing from our schools to fund private development by out of state contractors and developers. Bravo city of Edmond.

[TheImmortal]

I am very excited about this;I have told my friends for years that it was only a matter of time before there would be a mall in east Edmond. Now I always projected within the next 10-15 years but this is great. I agree with the above statement about pure profit. This mall would only be about 7 minutes from UCO and would serve Arcadia, Luther, Guthrie and many more small communities in addition to Edmond. The only downside is that this will probably just increase the urban sprawl of the OKC metro. But all the same sounds great. And being a member of the Edmond Convention and Visitor's Bureau, I am particularly enthusiastic about finally having a full service convention hotel in Edmond.

[mranderson]

Is this going to be a REAL mall or a strip center?

[TheImmortal]

I watched the planning commision meeting on this and a resident asked if it would be a setup similar to Quail Springs mall. The developer stated that the zoning would not allow them to construct a building like Quail Springs but they were still going to bring in mall-type department stores. So I am not sure if they will try to get the zoning changed to where they can build a true mall or if this will be some kind of uppscale shopping center. But either way I do not think they would call it a shopping mall if it were to be a standard strip center.

[mranderson]

I watched the planning commision meeting on this and a resident asked if it would be a setup similar to Quail Springs mall. The developer stated that the zoning would not allow them to construct a building like Quail Springs but they were still going to bring in mall-type department stores. So I am not sure if they will try to get the zoning changed to where they can build a true mall or if this will be some kind of uppscale shopping center. But either way I do not think they would call it a shopping mall if it were to be a standard strip center.

Some people incorrectly call a strip center a "strip mall," so I was wondering if that is what they meant or if is was going to be a real mall.

[John]

From what I've been hearing, it might be more like a Utica Square type of setup. There is a lot of old growth and a reasonable amount is probably protected.

I'm more excited for Edmond about the convention center/hotel than the shopping.

Covell is going to be the next Memorial Road. If you remember, Covell was chosen as Edmond's second RR underpass.

[brianinok]

I wouldn't really mind if they built a nice mall in east Edmond, but I would rather see a outdoor lifestyle center like Utica Square. Something like that could be really nice-- lots of trees. If they designed it right, they could even put parking underneath the anchors and minimize the surface parking. This, combined with a hotel and conference center would really be good for Edmond.

Since it would be combined with a hotel and conference center, it would increase the viability of the shopping area. If they get this deal done, I hope they have enough pull to get stores like Saks/Nordstrom and a hotel like a Westin/Renaissance.

[Midtowner]

So you guys don't care that they're using tax money to build this property to make money for private investors? That's okay with you?

[brianinok]

I have mixed emotions about using TIF on this. On one hand, I think that property taxes should go to schools only. On the other hand, this is not taking away any money from schools, only not letting them have some of the growth (there will be other growth the schools will benefit from). With more details, I may have a different viewpoint, but with the limited information I have, I can't get too worked up one way or the other.

[Patrick]

1. Considering the fact that malls are really on the way out in the present society, I think building a mall in Edmond wouldn't be a smart move. I think an open air development similar to the other upscale developments they currently have would be better.

2. I agree with Midtowner on the use of TIF money for this project. TIF money was supposed to be designed to improve areas that couldn't be improved otherwise. The Skirvin, Colcord renovation, and any other inner city project would probably qualify. Most of these simply wouldn't be feasible with out it. But, a shopping center in Edmond? Come on folks.......

3. I have the same problem with this that I had with subsidizing Bass Pro.

4. A think a true shopping mall like Quail Springs in Edmond would absolutely kill Quail Springs. I talked to the mall manager at Quail Springs recently and she told me that they've had a really tough time finding new tenants for the mall. That's why you're seeing a lot of local stores move in. For example, Two Sisters recently replaced Trevors.
She told me most of the upscale national retailers are either moving to the Spring Creek area in Edmond, or to Penn Square Mall.
Anyhow, it's mostly Edmond that's supporting Quail Springs at the present time. Still those residents away, and the mall will be hurting.

[Midtowner]

I have mixed emotions about using TIF on this. On one hand, I think that property taxes should go to schools only. On the other hand, this is not taking away any money from schools, only not letting them have some of the growth (there will be other growth the schools will benefit from). With more details, I may have a different viewpoint, but with the limited information I have, I can't get too worked up one way or the other.

Brian, that's an illogical justification -- completely illogical.

Will the schools receive less money if TIF is used here? Yes.

The answer to the question really is that simple.

[brianinok]

The financing doesn't touch tax money earned by the schools or the city, but focuses on future revenue.

Will the schools receive less money if TIF is used here? Yes.

They won't recieve less money according to the article. They just won't get as much of the growth. I should, however, expand my reasoning. If the deal is completely viable without TIF, I absolutely don't think it should be used. If it is not viable without TIF, I will keep an open mind. None of us can say for sure that the deal is/is not viable right now, because none of us have looked at the projected financials from the project. That is the only reason I am keeping an open mind on this deal.

And I don't appreciate you calling my opinion illogical. I am a well-educated, successful, upwardly-mobile businessman, and if I want to keep an open mind on something until I have more information, I think that is completely logical.

[BricktownGuy]

Who's the developer? I ask this because, does he have any prior experience in this type of development or are we getting another "Randy Hogan development"?

[floater]

This is a selfish view, but for every quality retail development in the suburbs, that's one strike against downtown retail. Still, if Edmond is going to be home to some major league (read: NBA) salaries, it has to provide more opportunities to keep that money here.

[Patrick]

I think this may be another announcement of false promises. I can't see another mall with full department stores like Dillards and JC Penney with Quail Springs so close. If they did have dept. stores, I'm guessing Saks or something like that. Still, I'd like to see those downtown.

[Nuclear_2525]

Is the 8.3 million for road construction or for the cost of the mall/hotel/convention center??? Cause if it is for the actual project, then it is going to be very small scale...

[Patrick]

The 8.3 mill is just for the widening of Kelley Ave.

[Midtowner]

They won't recieve less money according to the article. They just won't get as much of the growth.

Less growth = less money. Do you disagree?

I should, however, expand my reasoning. If the deal is completely viable without TIF, I absolutely don't think it should be used. If it is not viable without TIF, I will keep an open mind. None of us can say for sure that the deal is/is not viable right now, because none of us have looked at the projected financials from the project. That is the only reason I am keeping an open mind on this deal.

TIF was recently used in Chickasha to build a Wal-Mart. Developers do not care whether TIF is needed, it is only important that they have access to free money at the expense of our schools. A city council (read: a body of elected officials with zero name recognition who have to run for office after receiving salaries which only cover a fraction of the actual cost to run) often doesn't have the luxury of making the right decision, they have to think about reelection and donations to their campaign war-chests.

And I don't appreciate you calling my opinion illogical. I am a well-educated, successful, upwardly-mobile businessman, and if I want to keep an open mind on something until I have more information, I think that is completely logical.

I appreciate that, and I appreciate your forum participation. I'm not attacking you, merely your statement which was, on its face a contradiction in terms. You can probably see how the statement "less growth is not less money" is flawed. Nothing personal is meant at all, it's just a fact that TIF by its nature takes money from our schools. The hope is that the TIF money will be repaid by collateral development.

In a city like Edmond, however, we don't need TIF money to spawn development. It will happen with private money if we're patient. There must be a little restraint and control in these handouts instead of (in Edmond's case) giving them out to anyone and everyone whom Randal Shadid introduces to the Council members.

[Patrick]

[Midtowner]

The hope is that the TIF money will be repaid by collateral development.

This is simplistic and needs elaboration:

I mean to say that the hope is that the money lost in tax revenue to the city will be paid by increased property values in collateral development.

The error here is the assumption that absent TIF money, there will be no development. This is Edmond we're talking about, not Northeast 23rd & Bryant. If a developer thinks that the most profitable use for a parcel of land is a shopping/convention complex, he or she will put a nice proposal together, get financing, zoning, etc. The city can help by providing some of the infrastructure and services, otherwise, private financing will get the job done.

While those 'in the know' about how business gets done in OK knew better, TIF was sold to the voters as something to help revitalize areas that required public investment to be revitalized. TIF was not sold as a vehicle through which developers can finance suburban sprawl with public money.

If I were in a position where I could amend that legislation in order to help it achieve its purpose, I would attach an amendment requiring that a piece of property in order to qualify for TIF money must first be found to be "blighted." Otherwise, we're just giving public money to private companies to do things that they could and would pay for by themselves otherwise.

[brianinok]

On Channel 5's 10pm newscast tonight, I think they said the city council approved this plan. Did anyone else see that? They said we should expect to see upscale stores in the mall-- like the Galleria in Dallas.

[John]

They said we should expect to see upscale stores in the mall-- like the Galleria in Dallas.

That's what every developer promises (see Spring Creek), we'll see though.

[Patrick]

Yeah, first they said mall, now they're saying shopping center. Last time I checked, a shopping center is typically an outside strip mall. What type of "mall" are they really referring to here?

http://newsok.com/article/1839423/?template=news/main