Is Santa Fe station possible as OKC's intermodal hub?

[urbanity]

Secret architecture makes Santa Fe Station possible as Oklahoma City?s downtown transportation hub | OKG Scene.com

[Kerry]

It isn't near large enough. We had a pretty good discussion this in another thread and even had some crude drawings that incorporated the Myriad site into a large transit hub. I'll see if I can find it and post the link.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...resses-10.html

Start with post #246 on page 10. This is what OKC needs to build.

[warreng88]

I like the idea of narrowing EK Gaylord to four lanes in that two block area from Sheridan to Reno. If you took out the median, you could expand the station the three east lanes. That would create space for the streetcars to pull through. Then use the parking area to the north of the station as the city bus pickup.

[Kerry]

You guys are think way to small. This will be OKCs Grand Central Station. Closing a couple of lanes of EKG isn't going to cut it. OKC needs to build a Victoria Station type facility with retail, hotel, connecting ground transportation, an airport check-in, office space for rail operations and transit police, and tons of other stuff (Especially if this becomes a HSR stop someday).

[warreng88]

Kerry, that would be very nice, but is that possible for $10 million?

From the article:

Cornett said the Santa Fe station isn’t the only possible location for the intermodal hub, which has a $10 million price tag.

[Urban Pioneer]

I want to express that I echoed the mayor's cautionary sentiments about further study to the reporter. However, Santa Fe is an undeniable gem that should be specifically evaluated as part of the Hub Analysis study.

Regarding the size, we have $10 million for commuter infrastructure. We need to plan for the future and expansion possibilities. However we need to get something going in our lifetimes. The FGS outlines the needs for 30 years. Let's start using that as a base precedent and see how far we can plan into the future but get something going with the money we have.

[Kerry]

Kerry, that would be very nice, but is that possible for $10 million?

From the article:

Cornett said the Santa Fe station isn’t the only possible location for the intermodal hub, which has a $10 million price tag.

No, you can't have that station for $10 million. However, with an 80/20 federal split you can get it for $50 million with a lot left over. If they went with the design mentioned in the thread I linked to there are two blocks that would be freed up that could be sold for millions more. They would make nice hotel and residential sites.

[warreng88]

No, you can't have that station for $10 million. However, with an 80/20 federal split you can get it for $50 million with a lot left over. If they went with the design mentioned in the thread I linked to there are two blocks that would be freed up that could be sold for millions more. They would make nice hotel and residential sites.

So are you thinking close off EK Gaylord in that area (or make it depressed under a walkover) and renovate the CCC into the hub? My guess would be the western portion of the CCC off Robinson would be best for bus and streetcar pickup/drop off (making that street four lane instead of six with a median), the rail would obviously be to the east (by the rail lines) and in between the two would be the offices/retail/info, etc.

[Kerry]

EKG could be reduce to two lanes each way and would go under a station built on the site of the current COX. As mentioned in the other thread two tracks would be inclosed in glass to make the platforms all-weather. The plan would also break up the super block and extend Broadway 2 block south and reopen California Street which would offer an awesome view of Santa Fe station from Myriad Gardens. With the new park it might be possible to see Santa Fe and Union stations from the same spot.

Bus and other ground transportation services could be housed in what is now the Myriad parking garage. Street car lines would run on right-of-way made available by the reduction of EKG to four lanes. This would allow people to transfer from commuter rail to street car without leaving the building.

[BDP]

a station built on the site of the current COX.

That is a good suggestion. I think you could even convert the current space to use as a hub. It'd be perfect location with great access to bricktown, the arena(s?), hotels, and the CBD. Might have to see where new convention center is going though to really know.

[HOT ROD]

Kerry, there is no way the Feds will do an 80/20 split on a Transit Hub for OKC. While I appreciate the dreams, I think we also need to be realistic.

Also, I have noted that while many conservatives always talk about less government, it is surely interesting that there is no opposition to Federal spending that benefits them. If you're fiscal conservative at the Federal level (as many Oklahomans profess themselves to be), then I think it is only ethical that that same person be prepared not to receive federal funds for projects.

This is a BIG reason why I wish people would rethink the 'branding' of Oklahoma as a conservative state. There is no reason why OK shouldn't receive funding, but being conservative - it only seems rightfully so that funds don't get spent in OK. Take your own senator - Istook, who diverted federal funds that should have gone to OKC during MAPS I for a starter circular streetcar network and instead sent the money to SLC's (then) less ambitious but prohibitively more expensive by comparison Light Rail starter. He robbed Peter to pay Paul, and all the while REMINDED Oklahomans that you are fiscally conservative state and therefore would be stuck with only $10M from the feds for a rubber trolley tourist system. Oklahoma's political leaders continually sell out Oklahomans (while also taking 'donations' from other states/lobbyists) and make fools of themselves with all of this right wing idiot speak tying religion to everything, yet Oklahomans keep voting people like that in. What good did it do that Istook was chairman of the transportation committee? He did nothing for OK, other than make Oklahomans look stupid and pad his own pockets and SLC (and other city's) ambitions. .....

Have you had enough with the rhetoric? In my opinion, it is Oklahoma who shoots Oklahoma City's big league ambitions in the foot. I for one, am tired of it.

Sorry for the aside (but I think it needed to be stated);

Back to the topic at hand, I think the pictured intermodal station is a bit too ambitious for Oklahoma City at Santa Fe station. However, if such an intermodal was integrated next to the convention center or somehow possibly integrated near/with Union Station, I think it could work and be viable.

It all depends on Brewer - whether he will play ball or SELL SANTA FE to the city. Personally, I don't see what he has done - OKC has the WORST train support service for any major city; Santa Fe's service is laughable at best - cities on the Heartland Flyer route have better support than Brewers ABSENT Santa Fe.

While I applaud a local investor stepping in, it seems he's more interested in selling parking than utilizing his facility to the best interest (which might even draw more rail pax or side uses of Santa Fe facilities (via rental). This is another 'small time' way of doing things that I would love for OKC to purge itself.

[HOT ROD]

going further with BDP's idea - I agree that perhaps we could (later) utilize the remodeled COX area for an intermodal facility and remove the arena portion (once we have a new arena built - to retain the 2 arena downtown theme). Basically, cut Cox in half (along what would be E-W California alignment).

We could keep the fancy North face (and many of the remodeled ballrooms near there), remove the arena, and run train elevated train tracks having them turn to the (now middle) of cox. With the arena removed, we could then have city bus and city bus on the surface of the 'new' south side and have commuter rail, Amtrak, and (future) light rail on elevated tracks on top of the building. We could have the streetcar run down Sheridan (which is the current plan anyways). That would make the new "cox" building a true (and already GRAND) intermodal facility. ...

Finally, we could reclaim the two city blocks the arena currently sits on - maybe selling that land for skyscraper development in the form of office, hotel, or residential or a combination. The proceeds of development might even help the city pay for all of this.

Then, we could redo the current elevated tracks a bit and remove the Santa Fe platforms. We then could turn Santa Fe into a world class museum or Federal courthouse or city hall/municipal court.

Just to simplify my suggestion:

1) remove the arena from the current Cox Convention Center building, AFTER we have a new convention center AND after we construct a new arena downtown - so that we keep the 2 arena theme and have a viable convention center

2) retain the north half of the current Cox Convention Center building, it would become the Intermodal Transit Hub with it's already grand entrance and already remodeled meeting and ballrooms (of course, we'd need to remodel it again once this future idea is materialized, but you get the idea)

2a) AMTRAK would run new elevated tracks from the existing N-S 'santa fe' alignment, having a turn at the 'california ave' alignment to the top of the new Intermodal Transit Hub building. Platforms would be build on top of the building

2b) Commuter Rail (and future light rail) would also have tracks elevated to the top of the building with platforms also on top (or you could go subway, more expensive). ...

2c) Intercity Bus (Greyhound, Trailways, MTO...) would have dedicated gates on the surface of the 'new' south side of the Intermodal building. Inside, there would be waiting areas and baggage

2d) City Bus would have dedicated gates and loading areas on the surface of the south (and maybe also the west or east side) of the building. The building would have inside waiting areas and transit offices near the gates and loading areas.

2e) the Downtown Streetcar would run along Sheridan (and Robinson) along the already 'current' alignment plan. Streetcars would stop along the main front entrance area (and also perhaps on Robinson)

2f) parking could be retained under the north half of the building (if it currently exists). This might also open up possible expansion for subway for future growth

3) retain many of the meeting and ballrooms and grand facilities in the 'current remodeled' north half of the current building. Those rooms could become fine restaurants, galleries, meeting rooms for rent, and transit/travel offices. There could also be some shopping by expanding a portion of the exterior not in a transit corridor with retail storefronts

4) finally, we could have rental car and other CVB related counters and interests at the new facility. It could be a one stop shoppe for all OKC related transit and rail/bus/rental car travel

5) once the Amtrak and Commuter rail tracks have been built to the new facility, the existing platforms at Santa Fe could be removed and the N-S alignment could be redesigned for better efficiency

6) Santa Fe station would no longer be a train station but instead would become a major downtown destination draw, such as a world class museum or US courthouse, or "new" city hall or municipal courthouse


We could call the new intermodal facility, the Myriad Transit Center - bringing the myriad name back. The city would own the facility and would receive rent from all transit and travel agencies, restaurants, and retail shoppes.

Anybody like?

[Kerry]

I don't want to get sidetracked here but a few things abot your last post HOTROD.

1. Infrastructure is within the responsibility of the federal government so there is no contradiction from a conservative standpoint. Oklahoma is deemed a conservative state because it is so red you can see the color from space. Hell, the dirt is even red.

2. I think 80/20 is the current federal/local split.

3. If that starter line had been built back in '94 we wouldn't be talking about rail today, period. That starter line would have been a huge failure - and for the very reasons cited by Istook. It wasn't a loop, it was an out and back from downtown to the Meridian hotel area. If that line had been built the poor ridership would have doomed any discussion for a rail system in OKC. Not building that ill-conceived starter line might be the best thing that ever happened to rail in OKC. There is a reason that line was not being proposed in MAPS III.

4. By itself, Santa Fe is not big enough. Any facility would have to use the Cox site but it wold be far cheaper (and better) to tear down Cox and build a new facility.

[Larry OKC]

The following isn't intended to be a "slam". Like it when people come up with ideas that sometimes go outside of the box. But there are timing and financial realities that have to be addressed. Most of what you are describing sounds wonderful but prohibitively expensive.

1) remove the arena from the current Cox Convention Center building, AFTER we have a new convention center AND after we construct a new arena downtown - so that we keep the 2 arena theme and have a viable convention center

Timing may be an issue as the Mayor has said repeatedly the new Convention Center will be "staged last" and is 10 years or so away. The Mayor has also stated that the remodeled Ford will last 10-15 years after the remodel is complete next year. Then you have to add in the time to tear down the Cox and build the new (similar issue with the Boulevard...can't build it until the Crosstown is removed and you can't remove the crosstown until the new I-40 is open).

The second issue is the cost of a replacement arena. The one Bennett wanted in Seattle had a $500M price tag. As stated above, have to adjust that cost for inflation etc, 10 to 15 years down the road.

2a) AMTRAK would run new elevated tracks from the existing N-S 'santa fe' alignment, having a turn at the 'california ave' alignment to the top of the new Intermodal Transit Hub building. Platforms would be build on top of the building

2b) Commuter Rail (and future light rail) would also have tracks elevated to the top of the building with platforms also on top (or you could go subway, more expensive). ...

Personally don't have an issue with elevated tracks, but some here certainly will. They argue that everything needs to be street level. That anything elevated presents the same "obstacle" the Crosstown currently presents.

5) once the Amtrak and Commuter rail tracks have been built to the new facility, the existing platforms at Santa Fe could be removed and the N-S alignment could be redesigned for better efficiency

6) Santa Fe station would no longer be a train station but instead would become a major downtown destination draw, such as a world class museum or US courthouse, or "new" city hall or municipal courthouse

Unless it simply can't be expanded seems wasteful to not utilize the existing station, rails etc., for the purpose they were intended. Can't imagine it is cheap to put in new rail lines or to "realign" them. Would imagine elevated would cost even more.

Would the Santa Fe station even be big enough for either of the courthouses (and major renovation costs) or even City Hall?

We could call the new intermodal facility, the Myriad Transit Center - bringing the myriad name back. The city would own the facility and would receive rent from all transit and travel agencies, restaurants, and retail shoppes.

While I like the idea of bringing the Myriad name back (and appropriate considering the number of transportation connections involved), the City is not going to give up the naming rights money (unless Mr. Bennett is somehow involved, as he was with the naming rights giveaway of the Bricktown Ballpark and the Ford). While the City may indeed retain ownership and collect rent, if recent approaches are maintained, they will be looking at just "breaking even" (from an operational standpoint, never recouping the cost to build). Am generally opposed to the City being a Landlord for privately owned, intended for-profit businesses (see Bass Pro and Thunder deals). Now if the City can approach it with a profit-sharing/making attitude and recoup the building cost in a reasonable time frame, then that would be a different discussion (see Hornets).

[ljbab728]

The name "Myriad" can always be included in a corporate name. ie "Rose Bowl by Citi"

[HOT ROD]

Larry, thanks for your reply and I didn't take it as a slam at all .

But I do want you to know, my ideas are out there in the future. With that in mind, it does calm a bit of your very relavent concerns based on today and the near future. But Im talking about, after the new convention center is built and we build a new arena - to then build this grand new intermodal by reusing a portion of the cox.

Im not sure of the timeline, (I hope could be soon rather than later) but I definitely recognize that the city will want the new convention center built and a new arena before considering redoing the Cox space.

As for the elevated tracks, Im just 'proposing' to spur from the existing alignment. It would only be one block (more or less) away from the existing Santa Fe N-S alignment, along what was the California Avenue alignment. There would just be a 'turn' that goes to the West onto the revised Myriad building (retrofitted where needed, of course).

I also think my idea would be quite cost effective and might even pay for itself and maybe other developments if done right. If the city likes the naming rights, they can have Cox put their name on the new convention center (or the new intimate sports arena).

As for replacing the arena, Im not even going to touch that issue right now - as I wasn't even thinking of a new NBA/NHL arena but rather a smaller one to be replacement for the Cox Arena (to support the revised myriad configuration [taking the north half and removing the south half/arena]). We could just build a 8,000-12,000 seat intimate arena maybe across the street from Ford Center (other side of Robinson). We could keep Ford Center, as once it's time to refurbish - the existing building is big enough to fit any new NBA model or could be added to *unlike Seattle's Key Arena. I know there may be people who might not like tearing out the Arena and building a new one BUT if the intermodal rebuild of the myriad is done right and the reclaimed land is developed; that and the rent the city will receive on the new facility could more than pay for all of it.

IMO, that's the ONLY way we would ever have an large intermodal facility (with any type of Grand Entrance) in the center of downtown. It is a way we can think big, achieve a facility in the middle of downtown, but also reuse an existing building (well, half of it) while also recreating retail and development in that part of downtown (with the potentially added storefronts, retail inside the myriad, and the reclaimed 'current' arena land). Can you imagine the current Cox north face as the Grand Entrance for the Myriad Intermodal Transit Center?...

Talk about speachless, once you go inside and have your choice at 1)Amtrak, 2)Commuter Rail, 3)Intercity Bus, 4)City Metro bus, 5)Streetcar, 6)light rail (eventually), 7)Rental cars, 8)restaurants, 9)shoppes, 10)meeting space and transit offices.

[HOT ROD]

As for Santa Fe, those were just ideas I had. I would hate to see them tear it down, but in all honesty - the building isn't really big enough to be an intermodal facility and can't be expanded without considerable expense. But I do think there could be uses found for the building that would significantly add to downtown.

The thing I really like about my idea, besides giving OKC 'destination' status for urban transit development - is that it does this in the existing central core BUT ALSO BRINGS BACK SOME DENSITY to that area in which the Pei plan destroyed. And we would keep the 'nice' side of the myriad, but get rid of the eyesore (arena) and build a smaller, intimate one on the other side next to Ford.

[HOT ROD]

Kerry, Im not sure if I agree with you (but I dont completely disagree either as you raised some very good points).

My most disagreement is where you agree with Istook about the rail plan. I disagree because the federal funds would have only been authorized in 1994, but we would have a rail system built later. And surely, somebody would have come in and worked with OKC to build a more sustainable system. I also disagree with you in that look at the development that has taken place without a circular. Now, look to Portland to see what could have BEEN developed WITH a streetcar - circular or spoke. Portland's Pearl district and waterfront were industrial wastelands worse than Core2Shore before 1995 - huge embarrassments. But the streetcar was built and look at it today. Sure, it didn't happen overnight, but the streetcar helped develop Pearl District (in particular). Today, Pearl looks like a mini Yaletown (which is an upscale skyscraper neighbourhood in downtown Vancouver). I remember seeing plans and flyers about Pearl developments and nearly every development referenced the Portland Streetcar. ....

Build it and they will come; and it would have happened to OKC if we had at least got the money.

One more thing, hindsight is 20/20 but can you imagine IF OKC had done streetcar in the mid-late 1990s/early 2000's? Given the gas issues, given the recession. OKC's streetcar would cost even less money then than it will today, as Im sure OKC's downtown land values have already increased.

as to your first point, again - I disagree somewhat. It is true the feds should be about infrastructure (Im a moderate/independent) but OKC's federal infrastructure already exists. There's no justification from a federal pov to invest in an OKC intermodal facility; particularly since OK is a fiscal conservative state. The ONLY reason why it worked for Salt Lake was Istook's support and SLC getting the olympics - so they needed some pet projects and got it (over OKC). I would not count on federal support for this type of infrastructure until OKC proves it has critical mass - like all other cities have needed to do before they received federal dollars for transit; and OK gets politicians that care for this state/city and drops the right wing holier than thou stance.

[Larry OKC]

The name "Myriad" can always be included in a corporate name. ie "Rose Bowl by Citi"

I agree. That is the way to do it. I call it the Disney model of naming rights. Disney has mastered it as they have cross-promotional corporate tie-ins in just about every area of their parks. But they wisely didn't allow some other corporate entity to name the attraction. It isn't "Kodak's It's a Small World" the name of the attraction has remained the same through the decades: It's a Small World (sponsored by __________). Everyone wins, Disney keeps it's branding and unique identity, the corporate sponsor gets it's advertising and you don't have the potential for the name of a building changing several times over the years. How many different names has the Brick had now? Same company but the company kept changing its name (Southwestern Bell...SWB...AT&T).

Then councilman Cornett seemed to be thinking along these lines when he voted against the naming rights to the Arena (Ford Center). He said he didn't have anything against Ford, but he thought we should be promoting OKC and not some corporation. Wish he had kept that same attitude when he agreed to give away the naming rights to the Thunder.

[Larry OKC]

... build a smaller, intimate one on the other side next to Ford.

I always have a hard time orienting myself downtown....where would that be, where the Ford dealership is now?

Also, when we build a new arena I don't see building it any smaller. That is one of the mistakes of the Ford remodel was we took out nearly 1,000 seats and we had already outgrown it (for concerts etc). The new arena will need to be bigger, probably in the 22K to 25K range and the Ford would be the "smaller. intimate one".

[Larry OKC]

...One more thing, hindsight is 20/20 but can you imagine IF OKC had done streetcar in the mid-late 1990s/early 2000’s? Given the gas issues, given the recession. OKC’s streetcar would cost even less money then than it will today, as Im sure OKC’s downtown land values have already increased.

Absolutely, without a doubt!

Under the original MAPS the downtown streetcar with a link (not just a line to the Meridian hotel corridor/Airport as someone else suggested) cost significantly less than the current MAPS 3 proposed one (with no connecting line to Meridian/Airport).

The cost under the original MAPS? Originally pitched as a light rail system costing taxpayers a net $3M ($16M total cost with $13M to be in Federal funding). Under MAPS 3? $130M with no Federal funding expected and no line to the Airport area. Doesn’t mean Federal funding can’t happen, but the City isn't expecting it and considering the recent discussions about Oklahoma missing out on the HSR money in this round, seems unlikely.

This is why I was very disappointed when MAPS 3 was announced and we were told we were only getting the Downtown Streetcars (instead of the comprehensive mass trans plan the Mayor spoke of nearly every time MAPS 3 came up). Much cheaper to do it sooner rather than later and the remaining components of the comprehensive plan are now at least 7.75 years before they can even be considered.

The cost difference between MAPS & MAPS 3? $114M - $127M or roughly 8 times as much in just 16 years. The comprehensive plan was “only” going to cost $394M ($264M more). Applying a 4 times cost factor, that $264M will probably end up costing $1.06 Billion if done 8 years from now as part of MAPS 4?

Concerning the intermodal hub, as stated previously, if the Mayor is correct on the Convention Center being staged last, the hub will be built before it and that presents a problem with the reusing the Myriad space...

[LakeEffect]

The cost under the original MAPS? Originally pitched as a light rail system costing taxpayers a net $3M ($16M total cost with $13M to be in Federal funding). Under MAPS 3? $130M with no Federal funding expected and no line to the Airport area. Doesn’t mean Federal funding can’t happen, but the City isn't expecting it and considering the recent discussions about Oklahoma missing out on the HSR money in this round, seems unlikely.

I think we have a good chance of getting Federal funding. HSR was looked at from a State commitment point of view. Federal funding for Transit, such as the New Starts program, is reviewed for local commitment. Thanks to Maps 3, we obviously have a local commitment, so the Feds would know we're planning on spending money.

Under the Bush administration, a local new start had to demonstrate certain financial benefits in order to qualify. That meant that streetcars were low on the list, because they don't carry as many far ranger passengers as light rail. The Obama administration recently changed this to place quality of life high on the list, so a streetcar has much better chance at this funding now. Walking the walk; New transit action puts livability criteria squarely into the mix - Welcome to the Fast Lane: The Official Blog of the U.S. Secretary of Transportation

The proposed 2011 funding for New Starts and Small Starts is $1.822 billion... Federal Transit Administration Unveils Capital Projects Recommended for Major Financing The Transport Politic

[David Pollard]

This is just food for thought. It is an overview graphic that I posted weeks ago on the other, similar thread that points out possibilities for the Sante Fe station. Following what was said above, I think that this could and should all be done in stages, starting with renovation of the station itself to adapt it as a streetcar / bus junction. The changes and updates to the Cox could come at a later stage.



P.S. Maybe someone can tell me how to make the image bigger?

[David]

Take the link to your attachment, and turn it into an image using the [ img ] url-to-your-image [ /img ] tags without the spaces, like so:

[Urban Pioneer]

4. By itself, Santa Fe is not big enough. Any facility would have to use the Cox site but it wold be far cheaper (and better) to tear down Cox and build a new facility.

I am not sure where you are getting this from. We don't know that with certainty until the Hub Study is completed and this facility is assessed by engineers.

What I can tell you with some confidence is that the volunteer assessments that MTP has obtained is that the existing facility could easily handle the rail requirements in the Fixed Guideway Study. The question is more less how much space is needed for "rubber tired" infrastructure.

The political sentiment suggests that the fairly new Bus Station/Transfer Center at 4th/Hudson is not going anywhere anytime soon.

So then you are left with Streetcar, Bus Connector, BRT, Passenger Drop-Off Zone, Taxi, and possibly Greyhound.

The Project 180 street re-alignment/lane closures could provide more space and the Myriad facility/parking garage across the street offers great possibilities.

I will say it again though, I would like to see something going in my lifetime.

To not do a thorough engineering analysis on Santa Fe would be a irresponsible mistake. The question fundamentally becomes, how far ahead should we plan with the funding that we have available to us? What is scalable that provides service in the near term while providing expansion possibilities for the future?