Mills Malls

[metro]

I know there was previously some discussion in regards to Mills Malls so I decided to step up and do something about it instead of mere talk. The following is a reply I received after sending a through business climate summary and proposal to the Mills Corp.


Mr. Newlon,
Thanks for your suggestion and for your kind offer to assist. We have considered Oklahoma City previously for possible location of a 'Mills Mall', but have determined that it is not a market in which we are currently interested. Many other parts of the country have larger population bases with acceptable competitive environments, so for the present we are concentrating on those markets. We will, however, from time to time continue to review Oklahoma City as a future possibility.
Respectfully,
Ramsay R. Walker
Director, Land Acquisition

[Midtowner]

I know there was previously some discussion in regards to Mills Malls so I decided to step up and do something about it instead of mere talk. The following is a reply I received after sending a through business climate summary and proposal to the Mills Corp.


Mr. Newlon,
Thanks for your suggestion and for your kind offer to assist. We have considered Oklahoma City previously for possible location of a 'Mills Mall', but have determined that it is not a market in which we are currently interested. Many other parts of the country have larger population bases with acceptable competitive environments, so for the present we are concentrating on those markets. We will, however, from time to time continue to review Oklahoma City as a future possibility.
Respectfully,
Ramsay R. Walker
Director, Land Acquisition

If you really want to help the situation, go check with the Chamber of Commerce. They have some amazing EXCELLENT demographic info on OKC (had to use it once). Not sure what it costs, but I think one could make an excellent case for our market size and ability to support such a business based on demographics alone.

You'd have to really care about getting a Mills Mall though.

[metro]

Well it would be nice however I think it is a project SoonerRiceGrad should focus on. I'm currently busy with school as well as the Lake Hefner and downtown electronic billboard projects.

[BricktownGuy]

I think any type of mall like that would do wonders to the local economy. A Mills mall or even something like a Chelsea Property Group mall. (a Simon Company) would do wonders. Chelsea is the world's largest owner and operator of manufacturers' outlet centers. Simon owns Penn Square Mall and Eastland and Woodland Hills in Tulsa.

It looks to me like these type of malls (Mills and Chelsea) like to locate themselves in surburb cities.

[metro]

I think the west side of the metro could definetely support one. Somewhere out on I-40 past westgate marketplace or off the turnpike and 39th area. At one time they had one planned years ago.

[Patrick]

Thanks metro for doing the research on this by contacting the Mills company. That's basically what I've been trying to say for awhile. Market studies show that OKC can't support another major mall. New strip centers aren't helping that market trend any.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Well... they must not know much about Oklahoma City, because I would think it would be sure fire deal, once you figure in the amount of Oklahomans heading down to Dallas. And, you have people in Kansas, Arkansas, and towards Wichita Falls and Amarillo that would probably come to Oklahoma City to shop. When I look at these things, the mills malls, the pro teams, I think regional. I think Tulsa would have a better job of drawing Arkansas and Kansas fans into such a pro football establishment, and that OKC could draw in shoppers from a large area, because I wouldn't forget our Texas Panhandle neighbors to the west.

[Luke]

I'd rather get a Galleria style mall than a mills mall.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Note: Oklahoma has plenty of upscale shopping venues. We have no outlet malls whatsoever. But, yes, I would rather have a Galleria too. But a Galleria is more likely to happen because of Bricktown, so I am not going to worry about it.

[BricktownGuy]

I am just curious to find out... how many think OKC could support a Galleria style mall??? I could maybe see an outlet mall... a Mills Mall...... but..Galleria style mall.... in OKC???

I am just curious... is that a realistic dream or a fantasy??? (no offense intended to anyone.. just curious)

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

I could see a Galleria in Bricktown or somewhere along Lake Hefner. Those two areas have a real local flavor too.

[Patrick]

Bricktownguy, I think you bring up a good point. Due to our population density and average income, I don't think OKC could support a mall exactly like the Dallas or Houston Galleria. But, I could see something more the size of Northpark Mall downtown, with two major upscale department stores on each end (like Saks and Macy's) and upscale shops like Gucci, Polo, Guess, Fossil, etc. in between. Actually a multilevel mall more like 50 Penn Place with two major upscale anchors on each end might be a success downtown.

But, if we can't land stores like that at Penn Square, we'll probably have a tough time landing stores like that in a downtown mall.

Instead of a Galleria style mall downtown, I think we should look at something similar to Spring Creek Plaza in Edmond.....an upscale shopping village. Possibly the Town Center could become this vision.

Concerning a Mills Mall....again, I question population densities. A smaller version of Grapevine Mills could probably survive, but I don't think a mall the same size as Grapevine Mills would make it. Outlet Malls of America was originally a good concept, but it soon fell trough the cracks. Now, the mall area has been enclosed and it's nothing more than a shopping center.

Unfortunately, the performance of the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud still haunts us. It wasn't rebuilt after the May 3rd tornados because it wasn't really profitable when it was open.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Our income levels do not haunt us... because we have more purchasing parity than most Americans due to our low cost of living. You know that.

I decided this will be the idea for my blog today.

http://okcurbanite-suburbanite.blogspot.com/

[Patrick]

Our income levels do not haunt us... because we have more purchasing parity than most Americans due to our low cost of living. You know that.

I decided this will be the idea for my blog today.

http://okcurbanite-suburbanite.blogspot.com/

Problem is...due to our low cost of living, upscale chains aren't able to charge as much for their merchandise.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

That is our problem, not theirs. They don't change their retail prices for us, we suffer slightly in this way, but we more than make up for in real estate.

[BricktownGuy]

I had a friend that worked at the management office at the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud. He had told me that corporate Tanger offices had not been bothered with Tanger's performance in Stroud even 2-4 years before the May 3rd tornado. He told me this even before the May 3rd tornado... so its not like he had bad feelings towards Stanley Tanger.

If my memory serves right... Tanger in Stroud had about 50 - 70 stores. I do not know how something that size could not survive financially in Oklahoma.

I believe its only a matter of time.. before we can attract another outlet mall company... I do not mean in a grand scale.. but I can vision something close to the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud.

I agree with Patrick.....a smaller version of Grapevine Mills could probably survive.

Places like Penn Square can't even get a Macy's... how will other metro malls?

Sometimes I think we let our mind gets ahead of us... and drift off into a fantasy world. (although that world may be a great thing for OKC)

[floater]

That is our problem, not theirs. They don't change their retail prices for us, we suffer slightly in this way, but we more than make up for in real estate.

Our problem is their problem. If we "suffer slightly", they will not be able to sustain their stores here. We have some of the most affordable housing in the country, but we also have some of the lowest salaries. Retailers will look at our aggregate income, density, and median household income, and say, "Forget it. There's not enough dollars circulating to make it work." You need disposable income.

I agree that we can be aggresive and make a case for some specific retail operations for some areas of the city. There's no rule that says that a store has to be the first one to make a move. But I question whether a Mills mall would be the best thing (or even be successful) in the city. To echo what Patrick said before, the mall is a dying breed of retail. I envision higher end lifestyle centers for downtown.

[jenncole]

Our problem is their problem. If we "suffer slightly", they will not be able to sustain their stores here.

I second that motion, floater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

No. Maybe this will be my blog topic tomorrow, but let me mention a few points. We have more purchasing parity than New Yorkers... or most Americans. We may make 2/3 what an American makes, but we pay 1/3 or less for real estate. This gives us a higher purchasing parity. So... to heck with "lowest income". We have more extra money than Americans to begin with.

[floater]

No. Maybe this will be my blog topic tomorrow, but let me mention a few points. We have more purchasing parity than New Yorkers... or most Americans. We may make 2/3 what an American makes, but we pay 1/3 or less for real estate. This gives us a higher purchasing parity. So... to heck with "lowest income". We have more extra money than Americans to begin with.

New York, San Francisco, and DC are extreme examples. Anyway, if that is true, what are we spending that extra money on? Is our level of saving much higher than the rest of America?

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Theoretically, it should be. We pay less for gas, but we use more because of our sprawl, which we don't notice because of our stellar transportation system, which we pay for. If we had less sprawl, we would have higher land values and real estate would cost more... it's very complicated.

Places in America that cost much more than Oklahoma:

Colorado
California
Oregon
Washington state
DC
Florida
ALL OF NEW ENGLAND
Minnesota
Illinois
Wisconsin
Indiana
Michigan
_________

A good deal of America.

[okcpulse]

In 2003, Oklahoma's per capita personal income was 84 percent of the national average, so concretely, we make 16 percent less than the national average. Mississippi, the nation's poorest state, makes 72 percent of the national average.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Hey, that's pretty good for us...

[floater]

I'd rather not our pride be based just on "we're not Mississippi" or "we're not Arkansas". But I like your appreciation for what we do have.

[Luke]

Obviously, I don't know, but I just have a hunch that upscale retailers (regardless of market studies) would have success in the OKC market. Macy's, Sak's and the like...