Obama Woes

[Karried]

Poor Obama.. his Preacher is a real work of art.. but he pales in comparison to the Harlem preacher who is mad at Obama.. and his White momma. How crude.

ohGawdtheSmell... help me with these silly videos:

YouTube - Obama's Preacher Says God Damn America


http://www.youtube.com/v/-tMa4UtP5lI&hl=en


http://www.youtube.com/v/d5SEsKPLZ1U&hl=en"


Do you think this is going to really negatively affect the campaign?

I do.

[soonerliberal]

How many of us have had our pastor say something at one time or another we have not agreed with?

Wright has said some very controversial things on several separate occasions. However, once made aware of these statements, Obama instantly spoke against them and removed Wright from his campaign team.

There is a definite double standard here. Longtime McCain supporter, Rev. John Hagee, claimed Catholics are going to Hell and Katrina was God's revenge for homosexuality. McCain has repeatedly defended Hagee, without any reprehension from the media.

Regardless of all of this, Obama will be delivering a major speech on religion and race tomorrow to qualm all these issues.

[betts]

I consider all this smear tactics by someone. It's hard to know if it's the Clinton camp or the McCain camp, but I would suspect a zealous aide. I would hope neither of the candidates would stoop to this kind of smear campaign, but I am sure there are plenty of people who would.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Poor Obama.. his Preacher is a real work of art.. but he pales in comparison to the Harlem preacher who is mad at Obama.. and his White momma. How crude.

ohGawdtheSmell... help me with these silly videos:

YouTube - Obama's Preacher Says God Damn America


http://www.youtube.com/v/-tMa4UtP5lI&hl=en


http://www.youtube.com/v/d5SEsKPLZ1U&hl=en"


Do you think this is going to really negatively affect the campaign?

I do.

Here you go...I think two of them are the same though








As for the content...I'm trying to figure out why people are trying to hold him accountable for things other people say and/or do.

If I know a gay man, does that mean I'm gay? No.

If I know somebody that robbed a bank, does that mean I want to rob banks? No.

If my preacher turns out to be gay and robs a bank, does that say that I agree with his choices or condone his actions? No. (BTW, this one actually happened.)

Nobody is going after Hillary's associations. Hell, her HUSBAND isn't exactly somebody that I'd hang out with. I think she's getting off incredibly easy for the crap she's been pulling for months now. I honestly don't know why the press doesn't just hammer her on dozens of issues. She's been held above reproach on stuff that they're hammering him on.

I think that he's one of the most straightforward, honest, and genuine political figures we've had in years (as much as a politician can be anyway), and nobody was ready for that, nor do they know how to handle it. So they go after him on things that, if any other candidate did them, wouldn't be an issue.

I don't agree with quite a few of his views on how to run this country, but right now...I have to say that I'll probably vote for him. Because I don't want THAT woman running my country, and McCain is spitfire batsh*t crazy.

Don't get me started on how easy they're taking it on McCain.

[PennyQuilts]

I've been quite a fan of Obama and am very distressed by this development. He has made an issue of "judgment" but now wants us to believe that he didn't realize his mentor, uncle-figure and personal spiritual advisor held these beliefs. Note, he hasn't tried to say that he knew about the beliefs but disagreed with them - rather - he has claimed ignorance. That is nonsense. If a preacher made comments like this only rarely, the congregation would be in shock and that is all they'd talk about. The video sermons were sold by the church. Watch the congregation in the clips - these are folks very comfortable and familiar with this sort of hatefulness. They aren't looking shocked and that tells you a lot about what sort of teachings they have been provided.

Obama chose that church. The Reverend is no caricature and Obama and his congregation are completely out of the mainstream if he/they think this is no big deal. If Obama thinks that is okay, so be it. That tells me about his values, his judgment and his ability to see clearly for everyone when it comes to the values and concerns. I have raised my children to avoid bigotry and tried to live my life like that. This guy does NOT have the moral high ground. Hate is hate. I have never in my life heard someone talk about black people that way (I mean in person - we've all seen clips and read things). If someone talked about black people or others like that, I would turn on my heel and walk away and there is no way I'd expose my children to them. Obama CHOSE this guy. Says it all, to me.

If Obama somehow didn't know about this, he is an idiot. Twenty years a member of that church. His Mentor. Come on. Not the kind of person we need to lead this country. He has made no effort to personally distance himself from Reverend Wright (which I kind of admire). That is the only thing about this that speaks of integrity.

Comparing Obama's relationship with Reverend Wright with McCain's guy doesn't seem quite the same. In the first place, Obama clearly has a personal relationship with this guy and a close one at that. Trying to say that this guy is just a "spiritual" advisor and that we shouldn't hold Obama accountable for Reverend Wright's political beliefs asks us to engage in mental gymnastics. You don't hold this world view in a vacuum. If Obama shares his spiritual beliefs, I don't want him to be the one making decisions on who lives and who dies.

In the second place, what Reverend Wright is preaching is not even close to being simply off color or theoretically questionable. It is horrible and hateful.

Obama has chosen a hateful nut as his spiritual advisor. He tries to claim he didn't know. If true, what does that say about his "judgment?" He claims he didn't support the Iraqi war because he used good sense. You can't help but wonder if he refused to support the war because he was opposed to attacking the historical enemies of Israel. He says he is no anti semite. I have completely given him the benefit of the doubt but now I feel like that was a mistake. I can't express how disappointed I am. I really wanted Obama to be the real deal.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

He gave a great speech this morning.

[soonerliberal]

Transcript of Obama's speech - CNN.com

Anyone who has been following the Wright controversy needs to read or watch his speech IN FULL.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Here's the full video:

[redland]

Obama's speech this morning was nothing short of masterful He was especially effective I thought in addressing (in a rational way) the reasons for the racial resentments that many of both races feel. For example, many whites resent such things as school bussing and affirmative action because they see these as an infringement of their rights. Many blacks harbor bitterness over the years of discrimination that followed slavery and continue to some extent even today. This is where we are today. Do we want to stay there? I thought he also addressed effectively his relationship with Reverend Wright. Sadly, however, I think few people will change their mind about his qualifications for the presidency; and even more sadly many will not take time even to read his words. But his words give me renewed hope for America's future. Some day.

[betts]

Obama is a masterful orator. I understand African Americans being bitter and resentful, as they do not have as easy a way as those of us who are not, even with attempts like busing and affirmative action. They have to deal with discrimination on a daily basis, even if it subtle, but anger and resentment will not solve the problem. The American melting pot is the only way I see this ultimately ending entirely, and it's my hope that in a few generations a large number of Americans will have European, African, Asian and Hispanic ancestors, and there will be a true "American" persona. We need to get over being from "German", "Greek" or "English", etc ancestry. The Europeans don't dither over whether they are Milesian, Celtic or Pict.

[PennyQuilts]

We'll never get past the hate as long as it is deemed an acceptable idea to gather on a Sunday morning and use our victimhood and hatred of white people as a source of entertainment. My family immigrated to this country long after slavery ended. We never owned black slaves. I am not angry about busing or affirmative action. I am angry that a group of people apparently think they have the moral high ground to hate me just because of the color of my skin. Hate is hate. By sitting in the pew and donating to that church - and apparently NOT confronting his fellow parishoners, Obama became part of the problem. Those parishioners clearly enjoyed trashing this country and white people - people they may not have even known and who perhaps never did anything to them and perhaps tried to be fair and respectful and rise above race. Whatever Obama says, he funded and encouraged hatred by sitting in that pew and exposing his children - with the blood of slaves and slaveowners running in their veins - to ugly, ugly hate. It was a great speech and he said a lot of things worth considering. But at this point, as for Mr. Obama - his actions speak a lot louder than his words.

[solitude]

Obama's speech this morning was nothing short of masterful He was especially effective I thought in addressing (in a rational way) the reasons for the racial resentments that many of both races feel. For example, many whites resent such things as school bussing and affirmative action because they see these as an infringement of their rights. Many blacks harbor bitterness over the years of discrimination that followed slavery and continue to some extent even today. This is where we are today. Do we want to stay there? I thought he also addressed effectively his relationship with Reverend Wright. Sadly, however, I think few people will change their mind about his qualifications for the presidency; and even more sadly many will not take time even to read his words. But his words give me renewed hope for America's future. Some day.

I agree. They have been talking on MSNBC about how this is the most historic speech on race since MLK's "I Have a Dream" and I have to agree. But, if possible, it's even better. It looked at the racial issue from all sides and brought it all into context of where we go from here. I was blown away by this very open and personal speech. So different than you would have heard from a "conventional" politician.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Yeah...How long has it been since we've had a president that could stand up and speak for 30 minutes solid without you cringing once?

And while I know that being a good speaker is hardly a reason to vote for a man...It would be nice to have a leader that doesn't constantly embarrass this country to the world by not being able to pronounce words or answering a question with nothing but rhetoric. Obama answers questions. He doesn't waffle about them, he answers them. He says "nuclear" with only two syllables. I've only seen him dance around a question a couple of times, I can't say that of the other candidates.

I'm watching Hillary right now, and I don't want her in charge. She's running a campaign that is based on picking other people apart and doing anything necessary to get into the White House...No matter what it does for the party or the country. Sometimes, I get the feeling that she's only staying in the race at this point to tear Obama down far enough for him to lose so she'll have a chance to run in 2012. That, or she's really going to bork up the party by stealing SD's to get the nomination.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

We'll never get past the hate as long as it is deemed an acceptable idea to gather on a Sunday morning and use our victimhood and hatred of white people as a source of entertainment. My family immigrated to this country long after slavery ended. We never owned black slaves. I am not angry about busing or affirmative action. I am angry that a group of people apparently think they have the moral high ground to hate me just because of the color of my skin. Hate is hate. By sitting in the pew and donating to that church - and apparently NOT confronting his fellow parishoners, Obama became part of the problem. Those parishioners clearly enjoyed trashing this country and white people - people they may not have even known and who perhaps never did anything to them and perhaps tried to be fair and respectful and rise above race. Whatever Obama says, he funded and encouraged hatred by sitting in that pew and exposing his children - with the blood of slaves and slaveowners running in their veins - to ugly, ugly hate. It was a great speech and he said a lot of things worth considering. But at this point, as for Mr. Obama - his actions speak a lot louder than his words.

I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen a church that didn't go bonkers about homosexuals. Yet people give BILLIONS a year to churches. I guess that's okay...That hate. The fact that people tithe to that hate by the millions. Otherwise, you'd be railing against McCain for things the Baptists say and do from their blustery pulpits, or Hillary for what Methodists espouse on sunny Sundays.

Are you going to hold every Catholic you meet responsible for attending services and giving their money even after their priests molested children?

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

HAHAHAHA!

[PennyQuilts]

You know you can't compare molesting priests to this. The Catholic church does not set out to TEACH depravity and parents certainly don't take their children there to learn it. The difference is that these parents are taking their children specifically to learn the theology of hate. It doesn't matter if it is a white separatist or a black separatist - either one that is teaching hate is a horrible place to take a child. You LEARN prejudice and bigotry.

To teach children that white people are bad because they caused slavery (or something along those lines) is not only ignorant, but keeps these children in a mindset that may or may not be evolving. What GOOD does it do that child? How does it help him? It is one thing to teach their history - it is another to teach them to hate people who are born by an accident of fate into a particular race. The ancestors of most white people (given how many are immigrants) had nothing to do with American slavery. Moreover, many died in the civil war for the North. Additionally, few southerners had slaves to begin with. Do the parishoners feel morally justified in hating white people because white people are allegedly prejudiced? How then can they justify their own bigotry - and there is absolutely no other word that better describes what was going on in Reverand Wright's church. It is teaching that it is okay to hate other races if you have a good reason. That's a pretty slippery slope.

My experience through attendence in a number of churches is that my white children were taught that we should treat all races with respect and that "Jesus loves the little children - all the little children of the world." To think that ANY child would be taught the type of venom that was being spewed at Reverand's Wright church is sickening and does nothing but undermine respectful race relations.

People like me, who WERE taught tolerance, are understandably shocked that we are so hated. We didn't create history. Most of us are bending over backwards to be fair. The only sin most of have in that we weren't born black. I think it is horrible that some parents are teaching their children to hate me and/or my children on that basis. I also think it is horrible that anyone would feel justified in doing it. Equal rights is one thing. This is not about that. This is about hate, whatever the basis. It is a cancer.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

So what's the difference between teaching the hate of whites and teaching the hate of gays?

And I think I can compare the molesting priests to your argument. It happened. People know it's happened. It may still be happening. IT'S ABUSING CHILDREN. And people keep perpetuating that church and that abuse by contributing. The Church of Christ doesn't actively teach depravity, Reverend Wright made a couple of sermons that were exercises in bad judgment.

Look. I'm not defending Reverend Wright's words. He said some bad, bad things. I'm only saying that most churches preach hate in one form or another and they always have. Gay agendas, atheists are ruining the country, etc...And until you can honestly say that you denounce the people that attend every church that spews hate of ANY group of people as much as you're denouncing Obama for his attendance at Wright's, you're not being honest about why you're going after Obama with such ferocity. Or you don't believe gays are ostracized pretty much purely due to hate speech in churches.

Ever vote for a Baptist? Where do you think Sally Kern learned her special brand of vitriol? Yeah, the Baptist church. So by your logic, all Baptists are homophobic bigots because they actively support that religious denomination by their attendance and their donations.

[PennyQuilts]

Look. I'm not defending Reverend Wright's words. He said some bad, bad things. I'm only saying that most churches preach hate in one form or another and they always have. Gay agendas, atheists are ruining the country, etc...And until you can honestly say that you denounce the people that attend every church that spews hate of ANY group of people as much as you're denouncing Obama for his attendance at Wright's, you're not being honest about why you're going after Obama with such ferocity. Or you don't believe gays are ostracized pretty much purely due to hate speech in churches.

Ever vote for a Baptist? Where do you think Sally Kern learned her special brand of vitriol? Yeah, the Baptist church. So by your logic, all Baptists are homophobic bigots because they actively support that religious denomination by their attendance and their donations.

That is unadulterated nonsense. Even Obama concedes that his reverend was way, way over the top. You have lumped every single church in the category of teaching hate - every single one. There is no support for that. That came out of the air as something you want to believe or someone with two years of college told you.

We pick the church we attend. If one is hateful, we go to another. The fact that one is that way does NOT make all of them that way. It comes down to what the parishoners are choosing. And Mr. Obama chose THAT church. Mr. Obama is more akin to the parent who KNOWING that a given priest is an abuser, turns his children over to him on weekend camping trips, regardless. You can't compare that with someone who makes sure that abuser is removed and, failing that, moves his own family to another parish. And as for baptists or methodists or the like, I suggest you visit a few to get a feel for how they handle their sermons. Some are sedate, some are rambunctious, some are conservative and some are progressive - all within the bounds of a given denomination. The church goer picks what works best for him.

I went to a baptist church for years and NEVER heard a sermon about homosexuality. Based on that experience, I would never have any reason to think they hated them. Other baptists might have a different experience. Having close family members who are gay and who I love, I wouldn't go to one that attacked gay people. It would have been confusing to my children and I was having my hands full, already, teaching them to overlook comments and attitudes by others about their gay relatives.

You have all but accused me of being dishonest about my unhappiness with Mr. Obama. You are somehow equating my disgust with hateful racial speak with hateful homophobic attitudes and seem to be making a ton of assumptions about my position on that. The truth is, I left the Baptist church in totality because I did not agree with their attitudes about the role of women. Likewise, if the hate speech really bothered him, Mr. Obama could have changed churches or changed his religion. He did neither. He kept sending money.

So don't "preach" to me about churches and gay people.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

You're telling me that churches don't preach about gays and gay agendas? You telling me that churches don't tell their members how much they're hurting their way of life? What planet do you live on? And I didn't say all anyway. I said most. Even if I'm way off and it's only 1/4 of all churches, that's millions of people tithing to hate.

As for you being honest...Did you even listen to his whole speech? All 37 minutes of it? I don't think you ARE being honest about why you don't like him if you take something his pastor said and hold it against him...And that's it. No other reason. Especially after what he had to say about it.

And I'll take opinions of people with two years of elementary school long before I start listening to Hannity and O'Reilly...And those two bloviating gasbags are making a lot of the same points that you are about Obama.

[soonerliberal]

Huckabee defends Obama/Wright

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do," Huckabee says. "It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that.'"

Later, he defended Wright's anger, too:

"As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack — and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you — we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie, you have to go in to the back door to go into a restaurant. You can't sit out there with everyone else. You have a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here is where you sit on the bus. You know what, sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment and you have to just say 'I probably would too... in fact I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder if it were me.'"




His remarks are about 3 minutes into the video...

[PennyQuilts]

<<As for you being honest...Did you even listen to his whole speech? All 37 minutes of it? I don't think you ARE being honest about why you don't like him if you take something his pastor said and hold it against him...And that's it. No other reason. Especially after what he had to say about it.>>

You are calling me dishonest based on what? That I don't agree with you? I don't hold it against him because of what his pastor said. What I hold against him is his decision to remain with that church knowing it was preaching hatred. Can you not see the difference? As for listening to the entire speech, no I did not listen to all of it. Listened to nearly all of it and read the script three times word for word (did that on purpose to get the WORDS and not be swayed by the delivery). I have gone back to it several times to check certain areas of it, additionally. You seem to be suggesting that there is only one conclusion to be drawn and that anyone who listened to the speech would come away from it with the same opinion as yourself. My god, you are holier than thou, aren't you?

What is your problem???? I can't imagine one thing that I have written that any rational person could say was out of line. You don't have to get so personal about it just because it is not the same opinion as your own.

[betts]

I probably shouldn't say this, but the one thing that struck me watching Wright was that unless he has a skin condition, he has more white ancestors than African. How do we deal with people who see themselves or others as "different" when that is barely the case? What percentage African blood makes you African American? Why are people prejudiced against other people who's features are slightly different but who's skin color is the same? It's this sense of "differentness" that causes the problems. If you look at animal behavior, they tend to shun other animals with differences in phenotype, so some of that may be innate in us. But what degree of differentness does it take to create hate and discrimination? This really troubles me. Reverent Wright is more like me than my daughter's African boyfriend, but he sees me as the enemy.

[windowphobe]

How do we deal with people who see themselves or others as "different" when that is barely the case? What percentage African blood makes you African American?

In days of old, there existed something called the One-Drop Rule: if any of your family tree got anywhere near sub-Saharan Africa, you were black and that was that. There were gradations: mulatto (1/2), quadroon (1/4), octoroon (1/8), and further binary-based frippery. The idea, of course, was not so much to establish degrees of blackness, but to keep whiteness from being polluted. It was a dumb idea, and in places where it was written into the law it was a heinous idea.

In some ways, the tables have turned: I hesitate to call the possession of black ancestry a fashion statement, but I suspect there are some folks who, had they been alive in the Imitation of Life days would have tried to pass for white, but today will happily identify themselves as black. I don't have any particular problem with this - race, as the culture wants to define it, is a fairly artificial construct, and when I have to fill out a "race" line on a form I usually write in something like "mile relay" - but I tend to be wary of anyone who can detail his lineage to the percentage point. (As can I, unless there's someone I don't know among my ancestors.)

[PennyQuilts]

It never ceases to disturb me when my guardian ad litem kids report that they are discriminated against in THEIR OWN FAMILES for being darker. In families with different fathers, it is not unusual for the kids to vary widely in the hue of their skin and, according to the kids, it makes a difference in how they are treated in the family. I have heard this quite a few times from the kids and it still shocks me. I recall one time mentioning to a young girl that I just loved her skin - it was clear and just beautiful - she had a lovely complexion. She seemed absolutely astonished (and pleased). She told me that her sisters were lighter and that they and her aunts and cousins called her names that I won't repeat - but are connected with being black. She is not the only one who has told me similar stories but she is the one that stands out because she was an absolutely lovely girl but thought she was ugly because her family thought she looked too "black."

True story.

[betts]

It never ceases to disturb me when my guardian ad litem kids report that they are discriminated against in THEIR OWN FAMILES for being darker. In families with different fathers, it is not unusual for the kids to vary widely in the hue of their skin and, according to the kids, it makes a difference in how they are treated in the family. I have heard this quite a few times from the kids and it still shocks me. I recall one time mentioning to a young girl that I just loved her skin - it was clear and just beautiful - she had a lovely complexion. She seemed absolutely astonished (and pleased). She told me that her sisters were lighter and that they and her aunts and cousins called her names that I won't repeat - but are connected with being black. She is not the only one who has told me similar stories but she is the one that stands out because she was an absolutely lovely girl but thought she was ugly because her family thought she looked too "black."

True story.

I wish your story were wrong, because it's somewhat "Stockholm syndrome"-ish. But I have a dear friend who told me that her fiance's family was not pleased with his choice of a bride, despite the fact that she is a smart, charming, beautiful woman, and a physician, because she was "too dark", and they wanted their grandchildren's skin to be lighter. Interestingly, they did not end up marrying, and her ex-fiancee married a Caucasian woman. That was about ten years ago, and I was hoping that times and attitudes were changing.