New Downtown Arena

[soonerguru]

Who represented the voters in the negotiations with the ownership group, outside of Holt?
Were council members also involved? Is this public information?

I'm sorry, but can you imagine the utter futility of such a process? I mean, is this a serious question?

[April in the Plaza]

If it’s true that ownership would immediately sell based on a single no vote of an the extremely one-sided deal, then this ownership group really are despicable people with no interest in the OKC community. They’re just here for corporate welfare to enrich themselves.

I say this as someone who probably would vote yes. But your claims—and I trust your judgment—have made me lose all respect for the owners.

Agreed. That's probably the worst part of this whole deal.

What happened in Seattle is one thing, but trying to put the screws to your hometown -- is quite another.

[Laramie]

If $900 million will make our new arena among the Top five arenas in the NBA and the concert industry, let's get the ball rolling.

We all want to see what our new arena will look like. Build for our city's future as a staple in the NBA.

[Rover]

Your last two sentences are spot on, imo. The city routinely shows its ass on big projects (streetcar) by trying to reinvent the wheel or value engineer it out. I don’t have a lot of faith in them to plan this one much better.

The city absolutely maximized the budge on the original arena design. You no doubt forget or didn’t know what a deal the city got. And, didn’t the streetcar have a citizen’s commIttee to help plan?

[Laramie]

I'll say it again and not anymore.

Post-Covid construction costs have exploded. Everything is basically 2X what it was in 2019 especially anything non residential. This is a highly customized one off building with massive amounts of specialized mechanical/electrical/plumbing systems in it, most of which have significant supply chain issues to deal with.

Post covid, OKANA Resort and Water Park construction was estimated at $300 million--it went up to $400 million, a 25% increase.

I'll take a line from you, and I'll say this again, where are the specifications to justify a $900 million new downtown arena when we don't have any idea where it will be located downtown and how much square footage this mammoth will occupy.

I'm all for a new arena, one that will be among the Top five in the NBA. If $900 million will get us there, this will be an investment of a lifetime. Now it looks as though all posters who are arguing among ourselves--a good sign OKC voters are paying attention.

[PhiAlpha]

If it’s true that ownership would immediately sell based on a single no vote of an the extremely one-sided deal, then this ownership group really are despicable people with no interest in the OKC community. They’re just here for corporate welfare to enrich themselves.

I say this as someone who probably would vote yes. But your claims—and I trust your judgment—have made me lose all respect for the owners.

I’m a little skeptical that we’d only get one shot at this as well…I just think the ownership group wants the team to work here more than they want to sell it but the chance is there and it just doesn’t seem worth risking it. And for what? $50-$100 million more from the owners or knocked off the price? How is that worth it? (More of a rhetorical question since you said you’d probably be a yes vote as it stands)

[Teo9969]

If you're inclined to trust Urbanized (which is something I hope most on this board would be inclined toward) - the message between the lines is that the team is already all but sold. The $50M is a parting gift from the ownership group to the city and they will sign a long-term lease in hopes that the team stays permanently.

We can talk all day long about precedent and how a team breaking a lease and moving a team has never happened, but at the end of the day, we're betting $1.5B that it won't. That's an exposure to risk that I'm not sure any major business owner would take with their own business. Unless we're writing the lease in such a way that Oklahoma Judges have signed-off on as iron clad in an Oklahoma court of law to prevent the team from moving, then we're placing a lot of faith that a future owner who doesn't care about OKC would not find a legal loophole to go find more profitable pastures. At the end of the day, this arena will only increase profitability to ownership so much given it's still located in Oklahoma City and is limited by the economy of its individual and business population, both of which substantially lag behind the alternative cities to which a future owner might want to move the team.

[David]

If you're inclined to trust Urbanized (which is something I hope most on this board would be inclined toward) - the message between the lines is that the team is already all but sold. The $50M is a parting gift from the ownership group to the city and they will sign a long-term lease in hopes that the team stays permanently.

We can talk all day long about precedent and how a team breaking a lease and moving a team has never happened, but at the end of the day, we're betting $1.5B that it won't. That's an exposure to risk that I'm not sure any major business owner would take with their own business. Unless we're writing the lease in such a way that Oklahoma Judges have signed-off on as iron clad in an Oklahoma court of law to prevent the team from moving, then we're placing a lot of faith that a future owner who doesn't care about OKC would not find a legal loophole to go find more profitable pastures. At the end of the day, this arena will only increase profitability to ownership so much given it's still located in Oklahoma City and is limited by the economy of its individual and business population, both of which substantially lag behind the alternative cities to which a future owner might want to move the team.

Are you reading posts from an alternate reality? Maybe I have missed something.

[Teo9969]

Are you reading posts from an alternate reality? Maybe I have missed something.

I'm not sure what you're getting at? You don't believe that Urbanized has implied the team is likely going to be sold regardless of the vote?

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^^^
To be abundantly clear: I am absolutely NOT saying that I think the team is sold, or even that owners are thinking about selling. I appreciate the vote of confidence, but at the same time, please don’t put words into my mouth.

What I AM saying is that I believe the ownership group has taken stock of its own mortality. They’ve already had one primary member of the ownership group die, and Clay Bennett clearly had his own scare. I believe they are a well-intentioned group, who is only trying to secure this team in this city for a generation to come. Extended until a time when ownership will have changed hands, if only due to the mortality to which we all are subjected.

I believe they are trying to put the team on an extended path of profitability, or at the very least ensure that the team won’t be losing money no matter the future of CBAs and TV deals.

Do I think they’ll sell? Yeah…I think at least some of them will be happy to sell once the future (and their legacies) have been secured. Probably after the building opens we could expect to see some shuffling as some members take their reward for the work they’ve put into this since they bought the team all of the way back in 2006.

But I seriously doubt they are sitting around with pens in their hands and closing documents on the desk.

All of that said, if the vote fails I’d suspect they will give serious consideration to taking one of the numerous deals that will 100% be immediately presented. What folks don’t seem to get is that keeping this team in OKC is NOT maximizing its ROI. Their very best ROI by far would be to sell this team to someone from another market, eager to pay over value to bring a team to their own city.

Beating your head against the wall, trying repeatedly to convince a marginal market to keep their only big league franchise in town, all for a pay cut vs potential value? And potentially losing money while they grovel for a few years, with no guarantees? I wouldn’t do that, either. Would you?

[Teo9969]

^^^^^^^^^^
To be abundantly clear: I am absolutely NOT saying that I think the team is sold, or even that owners are thinking about selling. I appreciate the vote of confidence, but at the same time, please don’t put words into my mouth.

What I AM saying is that I believe the ownership group has taken stock of its own mortality. they’ve already had one primary member of the ownership group die, and Clay Bennett clearly had his own scare. I believe they are a well-intentioned group, who is only trying to secure this team in this city for a generation to come. Extended until a time when ownership will have changed hands, if only due to the mortality to which we all are subjected.

I believe they are trying to put the team on an extended path of profitability, or at the very least ensure that the team won’t be losing money no matter the future of CBAs and TV deals.

Do I think they’ll sell? Yeah…I think at least some of them will be happy to sell once the future (and their legacies) have been secured. Probably after the building opens we could expect to see some shuffling as some members take their reward for the work they’ve put into this since they bought the team all of the way back in 2006.

But I seriously doubt they are sitting around with pens in their hands and closing documents on the desk.

All of that said, if the vote fails I’d suspect they will give serious consideration to taking one of the numerous deals that will 100% be immediately presented. What folks don’t seem to get is that keeping this team in here is NOT maximizing ROI. Their very best ROI by far would be to sell this team to someone from another market, eager to pay over value to bring a team to their own city.

Beating your head against the wall, trying repeatedly to convince a marginal market to keep their only big league franchise in town, all for a pay cut vs potential value? And potentially losing money while they grovel for a few years, with no guarantees? I wouldn’t do that, either. Would you?

This is such a "have your cake and eat it too" argument. They want to secure their legacies but they want a big pay out. This is where we get back to the argument that started back on page 20-something. This is not a binary situation. It's not yes legacy/no legacy or yes pay out/no pay out. There's a spectrum for both legacy and pay out and the scales do not need to be so decidedly tipped to their pay out especially while trying to pretend there is some great legacy being offered up here.

The city would save money to forego the ownership's $50M offer and delay construction by 2 years, likely well north of $100M. There's 0% chance PBC profits anywhere near $100M in a new arena over against the current arena so the city is very specifically subsidizing profits with this proposal.

In all of this, some bank is going to make out better than both the city and the team in the short run and for what? This is where the urgency to sell becomes more and more apparent. Nobody on the city or PBC side of the table is unaware of the unholy amount of interest that the city is going to have to pay here. That both sides here are rushing this timeline in spite of that means something.

I think it's absolutely also worth stating that if pricing for loud city and even some lower level seating tickets rise substantially higher than inflation due to the new arena, a very tangible legacy that will be left is "rich owners pricing out a segment of their fan base they're supposed to inspire hope for". That's a legacy the city will share, inspiring more people to vote against future capital-project taxes that appear to benefit mainly the upper middle class and above.

To answer your question, if I were a business owner in this market segment worried principally about profits, no, I wouldn't stick around under any circumstance, because this is Oklahoma City.

If I were a business owner worried principally about the legacy my business leaves on the city I represent, I would have the patience to wait for a new facility built off the backs of the hundreds of thousands of hard-working individuals whose tax dollars support the initiative. I might even ask for more on the back-end to make up for lost profits now, or, more likely, I would just forego the profits for a few years to save the city a far more substantial chunk of change as a gesture of thanks to the community that brought an intangible value to my asset benefiting my experience as a part of that community.

I'm sure they've come by their approach honestly. But I'm not going to lionize them or the reckless use of public dollars just because they're willing to keep a professional sports team here. I'm not going to simply overlook the obvious concerns we should have as citizens because "this is the best deal we could strike", certainly not without a quality explanation of why.

[Teo9969]

On another note,

Assuming this passes and goes on the Cox site, did the Omni end up getting their request to have rights of first refusal for a future hotel on the Cox site? It's hard for me to imagine that we are using the Cox land well if we only get an arena out of it, but if part of this massive subsidy were to help fund some of the costs of a hotel and Omni pitched in to build out floors 4 through 15 plus finish on an incorporated hotel that would be a big win for this initiative.

[chssooner]

On another note,

Assuming this passes and goes on the Cox site, did the Omni end up getting their request to have rights of first refusal for a future hotel on the Cox site? It's hard for me to imagine that we are using the Cox land well if we only get an arena out of it, but if part of this massive subsidy were to help fund some of the costs of a hotel and Omni pitched in to build out floors 4 through 15 plus finish on an incorporated hotel that would be a big win for this initiative.

As long as TIF funds don't go to the hotel, it's fine. See the Dream development. The TIF funds will be used on the apartments.

[PhiAlpha]

If you're inclined to trust Urbanized (which is something I hope most on this board would be inclined toward) - the message between the lines is that the team is already all but sold. The $50M is a parting gift from the ownership group to the city and they will sign a long-term lease in hopes that the team stays permanently.

We can talk all day long about precedent and how a team breaking a lease and moving a team has never happened, but at the end of the day, we're betting $1.5B that it won't. That's an exposure to risk that I'm not sure any major business owner would take with their own business. Unless we're writing the lease in such a way that Oklahoma Judges have signed-off on as iron clad in an Oklahoma court of law to prevent the team from moving, then we're placing a lot of faith that a future owner who doesn't care about OKC would not find a legal loophole to go find more profitable pastures. At the end of the day, this arena will only increase profitability to ownership so much given it's still located in Oklahoma City and is limited by the economy of its individual and business population, both of which substantially lag behind the alternative cities to which a future owner might want to move the team.

Man I honestly have no idea how you’re getting that from what Urbanized said and it’s inconsistent with anything that I’ve heard coming from literally anywhere lol. Big time over thinking this.

[PhiAlpha]

This is such a "have your cake and eat it too" argument. They want to secure their legacies but they want a big pay out. This is where we get back to the argument that started back on page 20-something. This is not a binary situation. It's not yes legacy/no legacy or yes pay out/no pay out. There's a spectrum for both legacy and pay out and the scales do not need to be so decidedly tipped to their pay out especially while trying to pretend there is some great legacy being offered up here.

The city would save money to forego the ownership's $50M offer and delay construction by 2 years, likely well north of $100M. There's 0% chance PBC profits anywhere near $100M in a new arena over against the current arena so the city is very specifically subsidizing profits with this proposal.

In all of this, some bank is going to make out better than both the city and the team in the short run and for what? This is where the urgency to sell becomes more and more apparent. Nobody on the city or PBC side of the table is unaware of the unholy amount of interest that the city is going to have to pay here. That both sides here are rushing this timeline in spite of that means something.

I think it's absolutely also worth stating that if pricing for loud city and even some lower level seating tickets rise substantially higher than inflation due to the new arena, a very tangible legacy that will be left is "rich owners pricing out a segment of their fan base they're supposed to inspire hope for". That's a legacy the city will share, inspiring more people to vote against future capital-project taxes that appear to benefit mainly the upper middle class and above.

To answer your question, if I were a business owner in this market segment worried principally about profits, no, I wouldn't stick around under any circumstance, because this is Oklahoma City.

If I were a business owner worried principally about the legacy my business leaves on the city I represent, I would have the patience to wait for a new facility built off the backs of the hundreds of thousands of hard-working individuals whose tax dollars support the initiative. I might even ask for more on the back-end to make up for lost profits now, or, more likely, I would just forego the profits for a few years to save the city a far more substantial chunk of change as a gesture of thanks to the community that brought an intangible value to my asset benefiting my experience as a part of that community.

I'm sure they've come by their approach honestly. But I'm not going to lionize them or the reckless use of public dollars just because they're willing to keep a professional sports team here. I'm not going to simply overlook the obvious concerns we should have as citizens because "this is the best deal we could strike", certainly not without a quality explanation of why.

1. No guarantee ticket costs go up, especially since there will likely be more of them. That’s just an assumption. Tickets were expensive as hell when the team was good, especially on the secondary market, and declined when they started going down hill. If the product is good, people will pay to see just as they always have. If it’s bad, they won’t.

2. Again that’s a bunch of words for “I’m willing to potentially lose the team over $50-$150 million that will have no tangible impact on my day to day life nor will it have any dire impact on the city”

3. A few of the older guys selling all or part of their share at some point down the road if their families don’t want to take over is hardly surprising. If the arena is built, I would have a hard time seeing the entire group selling out or doing anything that would give up a controlling interest. Though if they did…they would be extremely unlikely to move from a brand new arena…that has literally never happened. But even in the unlikely event that they did ant some point…are they going to take the arena with them? In 25 years, being left with a very nice 20 year old arena that can continue to be effectively renovated doesn’t sound too bad when the other option is them leaving in 5 years and being left with an empty and aging paycom center center for the same 20 years (it would be nearing 50 at that point) that we continue to duct tape together before eventually having to replace it anyway.

4. in response to your other post…precedent absolutely does matter whether you want to ignore it or not.

[Laramie]

We all want what is best for Oklahoma City. Our Mayor Holt has explained the inadequate flaws with the Paycom Center in its current state. JoBeth Harmon has her concerns with a new arena. These voices should be respected.

Mayor David Holt:

1. The total square footage, more money-making amenities.
2, Not having a team. (Has the ownership been transparent about a failed vote.)
3. Not having $600 million in economic impact, the brand we get Internationally.
4. Community Unity, The Quality of Life and the Concerts
5. The ownership's commitment. (OKC will own the arena.)
6. How will our new arena compete with current NBA arenas.

JoBeth Harmon:

1. Holt has not been transparent with the public.
2. City operating out of fear of losing the team.
3. We weren't given adequate information about how this deal looks with other cities. (Which cities are a fair comparison.)
4. Is it a really good deal. Was it negotiated well.
5. The ownership's commitment. (Should the ownership commit more than $50 million.
6. How will our new arena compete with current NBA arenas.

This is what I took from the source 'Live with this deal or not': Divided opinions over new Oklahoma City Thunder arena project."

Source: https://okcfox.com/news/local/divide...hropy-election
^ ^ ^ This was limited to one source ^ ^ ^

My opinion: We need to commission a group to conduct a study on what kind of arena we need--Specs needed to support our two main events and future attractions. NBA basketball and concerts. Also future events we could attract with a new arena that our current Paycom Center can't support. We lost a 10,000 attendee FFA event to Tulsa because we couldn't commit to a three year agreement with the State's FFA annual gathering. Can we host more events with two invested arenas using a new arena and Paycom Center, can our city bring in more attractions and conventions? This is what we could obtain from a thorough study.

Can OKC support other NBA related events like hosting an NBA Summer League or Collegiate basketball events like the 'revival' of the NCAA All College Tournament or hosting an NCAA tournament regional. The International Finals Rodeo being returned to OKC, with the capacity to host the calf roping event in the new arena--is this feasible.

What attractions do we have that will be a selling point to tourists who visit our city like Arts Museum, FAM museum, The Bombing Memorial and The OKANA Resort under construction. The current NCAA WCWS Softball playoffs, how can we provide more to the visitors for the attractions our city has to offer. Bricktown and city hotel and restaurants to support future events.

Let's put to rest what we want to do with the 4 square block Prairie Surf Studios' site for future use.

[Teo9969]

As long as TIF funds don't go to the hotel, it's fine. See the Dream development. The TIF funds will be used on the apartments.

If the OMNI was involved, TIF funds could be used. The question was whether or not they still had right of first refusal.

[Teo9969]

1. No guarantee ticket costs go up, especially since there will likely be more of them. That’s just an assumption. Tickets were expensive as hell when the team was good, especially on the secondary market, and declined when they started going down hill. If the product is good, people will pay to see just as they always have. If it’s bad, they won’t.

2. Again that’s a bunch of words for “I’m willing to potentially lose the team over $50-$150 million that will have no tangible impact on my day to day life nor will it have any dire impact on the city”

3. A few of the older guys selling all or part of their share at some point down the road if their families don’t want to take over is hardly surprising. If the arena is built, I would have a hard time seeing the entire group selling out or doing anything that would give up a controlling interest. Though if they did…they would be extremely unlikely to move from a brand new arena…that has literally never happened. But even in the unlikely event that they did ant some point…are they going to take the arena with them? In 25 years, being left with a very nice 20 year old arena that can continue to be effectively renovated doesn’t sound too bad when the other option is them leaving in 5 years and being left with an empty and aging paycom center center for the same 20 years (it would be nearing 50 at that point) that we continue to duct tape together before eventually having to replace it anyway.

4. in response to your other post…precedent absolutely does matter whether you want to ignore it or not.

#1. The market only matters in this academic argument and to those who can afford to pay more for tickets. The narrative that will be driven if the lower middle class and especially if the middle class is priced out from an activity they used to be able to afford will be "evil greedy rich" people. Voting is a matter of perception, not being "correct".

#2. It's not $150M. It's $1.5B. And what I am actually willing to wager is that the situation is not as urgent as it's being made out. If I truly felt the owners were going to sell in the next 5 years, I'd probably vote yes, but you know what, they can clear that up for me real quick if they're willing to sell. In my mind, the earliest they'll sell is when the SGA Thunder era comes to an end. So, yes, absent information they have foolishly withheld from the public, I believe we have more time. We'll see what this "campaign" that's coming is all about and what additional information it will bring. I'm not convinced a MAPS level push is going to be made...the strategy they have employed up to this point is that they want this to quietly pass and it likely will.

#4 I'm still not risking $1.5B on precedent, much of which is not apples to apples, nor am I awarding a terrible approach to the public for this effort.

[Teo9969]

Double post

[Rover]

Wonder what the value of a cover exposure is. Good pub for OKC. All this is part of the value of the team to OKC.

https://www.slamonline.com/the-magaz...7-cover-story/

[Anonymous.]

Anyone seen this website yet? It is the first item coming up on google when you search anything about the OKC arena. Let the campaign begin!

https://www.keepokcbigleague.com/

[Urbanized]

Wonder what the value of a cover exposure is. Good pub for OKC. All this is part of the value of the team to OKC.

https://www.slamonline.com/the-magaz...7-cover-story/

Great article. It’s feeling like 2010 but somehow even better. No negativity, no toxicity. This team was assembled using a good bit of hindsight. Not all talent is worth the hassle.

[David]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? You don't believe that Urbanized has implied the team is likely going to be sold regardless of the vote?

Yes, I think you are making stuff up wholesale.

[Teo9969]

Yes, I think you are making stuff up wholesale.

Well, okay

[Urbanized]

To be abundantly clear, I have no personal insight whatsoever what the Thunder’s ownership is thinking or planning. A few pages back I DID say that my gut tells me some members would probably cash out after the building is online, because that’s a logical thing to do in business.

They have an asset that likely doesn’t pay them a lot (I know, hard to believe, with all of the money changing hands, but teams have unreal overhead), but yet an asset that is worth billions. The solid business play is to build value and then sell the asset. And nobody lives forever. It just makes sense from a business and human nature standpoint that there will be transactions.

There’s nothing nefarious about selling, ESPECIALLY if they’ve already secured the team’s long-term future in OKC.

The idea that they’ll sell to someone if it DOESN’T pass is also supposition, but one founded in realities, and essentially acknowledged by the mayor publicly. Without a new building the team becomes less and less able to cash flow, and less and less able to afford to remain competitive. They become a poverty franchise. Owners start to LOSE money. The team loses game after game with no hope to compete. Fans stop coming (we now know that this is also the reality in OKC, like many markets). Nobody wants that…do they..?

And it goes without saying that billionaires in other non-NBA cities will immediately line up with offers. With high resale value, no prospects for a new building, an election rejection by hometown fans in a marginal, one-team market, diminishing potential for success, a potential (even likelihood ) of millions of dollars in losses, not to mention stupidly-high offers coming in one after the other, what do you THINK will happen? Again, let an understanding of human nature be your guide here.