Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[mkjeeves]

Part of the problem with OKC's outer neighborhoods is that they don't have a gathering place/area. The appeal of the Plaza District, the Paseo, Capitol Hill, 23rd St. are the core of buildings suitable for retail that create a common area for people to gather and recreate. I see those same types of neighborhoods in Chicago making the area very desirable for homebuyers. It's great to walk to Southport, Wicker Park, Lincoln Park to shop, dine, listen to music. It recreates small town living in the city. Because of cars and shopping centers, newer(60s and newer) neighborhood don't have that restorable core that is so appealing nowadays. Perhaps there is a way to create something in a few selected neighborhoods to make a gathering place, be it a park with an adjacent public library, stop for streetcar or light rail that might generate some development to make a neighborhood more than simply where you sleep.

That's some of what I've been advocating. Will they be perfect, no. (Is anything?) They could be tremendous assets though.

[mkjeeves]

Just to clear up any misconception about charter schools...charter schools do not have "selective enrollment" as some of you might think:

OSCN Found Document:Eligible Students - Discrimination

I'm glad you set that straight. Poor choice of words on my part. Do you know if Rex has the same racial ratios as the district? I don't. And it's really irrelevant to this thread. However in many instances around the country that ends up not being the case for whatever reason. (I haven't studied it at great length. I'm not down on Rex. I'm sure it and everyone associated with it are great, non-racist people. Maybe we need a thread to talk about it or not. My kid is grown and while I'm concerned about the issue. It's not my soap box.)

The Racist History of the Charter School Movement | Alternet

That was part of the point. The real point was driven home by hoya though. Maps didn't and isn't going to fix the history of racism in the country and white flight from downtown to the burbs, from burb to burb or from burbs to downtowns. So when people bring it up as it relates to the burbs, it also relates to gentrified urban areas and it signals some people are running thin on relevant arguments.

[turnpup]

I'm glad you set that straight. Poor choice of words on my part. Do you know if Rex has the same racial ratios as the district? I don't. And it's really irrelevant to this thread. However in many instances around the country that ends up not being the case for whatever reason. (I haven't studied it at great length. I'm not down on Rex. I'm sure it and everyone associated with it are great, non-racist people. Maybe we need a thread to talk about it or not.)

I do not have that data. What I do know is that, while Rex can take transfers from outside the boundaries (i.e., "white kids"), it cannot reject in-boundary children. So if there happens to be a large population of resident non-white students wanting in, then they have to be accepted. The only form of "discrimination" allowed by law is that which might be considered "reverse discrimination" under the statute (see heading C) in an attempt to better serve the underserved. I can also tell you that there are a lot of people/groups trying to use the charter process to help those in the most need. You might not hear much about it right now, but it's going on. Hopefully there will be success and we'll see a transformation of OKCPS in the very near future.

[krisb]

Any suburban shopping development can be retrofitted into a walkable gathering place. Here is one example:

[Montreal]

The problem with neighborhood-focused investment on a mass-scale in much of post-war developed OKC is that it's built on a very poor infrastructure foundation. As it's been mentioned in here before, most sprawling, auto-dependent development has been built on "bad bones."

For neighborhood placemaking efforts to succeed, they must be first initiated in areas with a (mostly) extant strong, interconnected street network. That style of public investment in areas that don't meet that criterion will fail to deliver the intended results. The only areas where I would vote/advocate MAPS undertake this type of investment is in the area market below:



It's not a coincidence that successful MAPS (Bricktown, CBD) and non-MAPS (Plaza, Uptown, Paseo, Western) placemaking efforts all had an existing street grid in place to build off of. Effective sprawl repair at any scale outside of this boundary will require radical investment: purchasing perfectly good buildings, tearing them down, and building roads through them to connect the street network (not to mention zoning issues).

If we were bent on doing a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods, I'd vote that we'd focus on neighborhoods between 235 and 35 and south of the river north of S 44th. Those communities have large minority populations that have been passed up by much of the "urban core" reinvestment but have a strong built-environment foundation to work off of. Now, other potential capital MAPS efforts like lake/park/trail improvements, fixed transit, Zoo/Adventure District, AICCM, State Fairgrounds not located downtown may be better areas to focus on if we didn't want to just do more capital improvements downtown.

[mkjeeves]

For neighborhood placemaking efforts to succeed, they must be first initiated in areas with a (mostly) extant strong, interconnected street network. That style of public investment in areas that don't meet that criterion will fail to deliver the intended results. The only areas where I would vote/advocate MAPS undertake this type of investment is in the area market below:



It's not a coincidence that successful MAPS (Bricktown, CBD) and non-MAPS (Plaza, Uptown, Paseo, Western) placemaking efforts all had an existing street grid in place to build off of. Effective sprawl repair at any scale outside of this boundary will require radical investment: purchasing perfectly good buildings, tearing them down, and building roads through them to connect the street network (not to mention zoning issues).

If we were bent on doing a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods, I'd vote that we'd focus on neighborhoods between 235 and 35 and south of the river north of S 44th. Those communities have large minority populations that have been passed up by much of the "urban core" reinvestment but have a strong built-environment foundation to work off of. Now, other potential capital MAPS efforts like lake/park/trail improvements, fixed transit, Zoo/Adventure District, AICCM, State Fairgrounds not located downtown may be better areas to focus on if we didn't want to just do more capital improvements downtown.

Almost everything north and west of what you've mapped for miles is on a connected grid. Look upthread at the map of 10th street from Midtown to Overholser. So is much of the city in other directions. These aren't one-way access gated areas.

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

^ That's pretty much more of the same, most of the neighborhoods get lip service and a plea for handing over their taxes to be spent in the center of the city.

[bchris02]

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

I really don't think there is a lot of comparison between those two areas. First, compare the bones of the Plaza district and the Classen Ten Penn neighborhood surrounding it with NW 10th between Rockwell and Council. In the Plaza District, the homes are much older, on smaller lots, and there is a walkable, commercial focal point for the neighborhood. Far west NW 10th doesn't have that. There are a few first generation auto-oriented strip malls, lots of distressed apartment complexes that would be difficult to revitalize, and homes on fairly large lots. How do you fix that?

Secondly, the Plaza district required no MAPS subsidy to kick it off. The free market made it into what it has become because it was seen as desirable and as a great place to invest.

[mkjeeves]

there is a walkable, commercial focal point for the neighborhood.

There wasn't 25 years ago and more of when I spoke. It was dead empty buildings, like any section of NW 10th. (The ones that are empty and not taken care of on 10th. There are some that are.)

[mkjeeves]

Most of the housing stock in that district is post war (late 40s) and the streets in the neighborhoods are no more or less walkable than those off 10th. It was an early suburban commercial strip and housing.

[Urbanized]

It wasn't MAPS funding, but Plaza DID receive a bond-funded streetscape a little over a decade ago, which improved the sidewalk situation and honestly was the early tipping point for the district. The same thing happened in Automobile Alley and other areas. Streetscapes are the publicly-funded thing that can really bring an area to life, and signal growth and reinvestment. But they are best done where there is some worthwhile, dense building stock on the street. and MAPS is probably not the best vehicle for them but rather bond issues and other instruments.

[hoya]

I think the point is, the Plaza district took off on its own. For whatever reason, conditions there were better for revitalization than they are over on NW 10th.

Maybe the Plaza district just got lucky somehow. The Wheel of Fate turned and they came up a winner. Or... maybe the "bones" were better, and that's why it turned into a trendy, thriving district and NW 10th hasn't. Why do you think the Plaza district has improved?

[Urban Pioneer]

Secondly, the Plaza district required no MAPS subsidy to kick it off. The free market made it into what it has become because it was seen as desirable and as a great place to invest.

Not exactly true. A multi-million dollar MAPS type streets type investment was made by the city. A business and community development organization was also created by the city. Zoning overlays and other city sponsored investments were made. Those investments established the springboard from which the free market has progressed.

[mkjeeves]

Depending on which block, some of that stock is '20s and 30's. You don't have to go very far west or north and you are in the '40s and post war. (Still way inside the inner loop.) But that's pretty meaningless really.

They are somewhat older and many are charming.

[Urban Pioneer]

Apologies. Mine took longer to type Urbanized. lol

[Urbanized]

Plaza applied for and received Main Street designation (no longer in place) through the Oklahoma Department of Commerce in the late Nineties. Lyric Theater and OCU lent support. THIS is what emboldened the City to do the streetscape; the City wants to support places where the neighborhood has joined together and has begun to invest in itself. They don't just come in and sprinkle magic dust on areas with no activity or neighborhood buy-in.

Once the streetscape was finished it emboldened DIY retailers/services like DNA Galleries, Collected Thread, Velvet Monkey, who recognized the potential but truly stuck out their necks to hang a shingle in a still-sketchy area. After that, real estate investors began to see the momentum and started to physically change the area and make deals with restaurant operators. ZERO of this part were City-funded. It also took YEARS. There is a perception that Plaza is an overnight success, but the effort truly began in the nineties and took lots of effort from lots of people. There wasn't a magic pill.

[mkjeeves]

Plaza applied for and received Main Street designation (no longer in place) through the Oklahoma Department of Commerce in the late Nineties. Lyric Theater and OCU lent support. THIS is what emboldened the City to do the streetscape; the City wants to support places where the neighborhood has joined together and has begun to invest in itself. They don't just come in and sprinkle magic dust on areas with no activity or neighborhood buy-in.

Once the streetscape was finished it emboldened DIY retailers/services like DNA Galleries, Collected Thread, Velvet Monkey, who recognized the potential but truly stuck out their necks to hang a shingle in a still-sketchy area. After that, real estate investors began to see the momentum and started to physically change the area and make deals with restaurant operators. ZERO of this part were City-funded. It also took YEARS. There is a perception that Plaza is an overnight success, but the effort truly began in the nineties and took lots of effort from lots of people. There wasn't a magic pill.

There never is. Downtown has taken over $1 billion in public funding and decades.

I think for maps for neighborhoods to work it will take leadership and local involvement. That doesn't mean it has to be 100% instigated, planned, funding sourced like the Plaza district did. City leadership can be helpful on all counts.

[Urban Pioneer]

True Urbanized. The point still remains that the city itself invested millions of dollars in supporting infrastructure. They have been the largest player in reviving the neighborhood from a financial standpoint. And you are right, Bond Issues are typically the best vehicle for the types of corridor improvements that the "Maps 4 Neighborhoods" folks seem to want to achieve.

That said, they have two chances with their "movement". Both the 2016 projected GO Bond vote and the potential 2017 Maps 4 vote.

There is no reason that lessons learned in the Plaza couldn't be applied elsewhere. The old downtown of Britton always intrigues me when I drive over to do work at Casady. Imagine if a commuter rail stop were placed there with Plaza type city investment.

[Montreal]

Almost everything north and west of what you've mapped for miles is on a connected grid. Look upthread at the map of 10th street from Midtown to Overholser. So is much of the city in other directions. These aren't one-way access gated areas.

I visited or drove through the Plaza district many times in the decades before it re-emerged as a place. (There was an electonics parts store there I frequented if I wasn't just passing through.) It didn't look all that much different than just about any three block section of NW 10th, a few mostly empty or run down buildings built on a strip with neighborhoods behind them.

Except it's not a connected grid. Sure, there are many mile and half-mile arterial crossings, but those are not designed at a human scale, making them not designed for walkability. Contrast the walking distance between two houses almost equidistant to each other as the crow flies—the first in Classen-10-Penn and the second between Rockwell and Council. Notice the vast difference in time it takes to go from one to the other. In this example, not having an interconnected street grid more than quadruples the overall walking time.





The reason Plaza was able to jump back to life after a major investment by its community was solely due to the good bones of its interconnected street grid.

[Montreal]

There is no reason that lessons learned in the Plaza couldn't be applied elsewhere. The old downtown of Britton always intrigues me when I drive over to do work at Casady. Imagine if a commuter rail stop were placed there with Plaza type city investment.

Britton is probably one of the only other places that has potential for this type of placemaking investment outside of OKC's (mostly) contiguous urban core street grid. The real longterm magic of connecting these types of places will be when the RTA is moving forward to connect the older, traditionally planned downtowns of Edmond, Yukon, Moore, and Norman,

[mkjeeves]

Except it's not a connected grid. Sure, there are many mile and half-mile arterial crossings, but those are not designed at a human scale, making them not designed for walkability. Contrast the walking distance between two houses almost equidistant to each other as the crow flies—the first in Classen-10-Penn and the second between Rockwell and Council. Notice the vast difference in time it takes to go from one to the other. In this example, not having an interconnected street grid more than quadruples the overall walking time.





The reason Plaza was able to jump back to life after a major investment by its community was solely due to the good bones of its interconnected street grid.

Most of the area off 10th does not resemble your example for off NW 10th. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Portland to May on the northside is almost exactly like your first photo for instance.

Will it be perfect? No. Not much is.

[Montreal]

Most of the area off 10th does not resemble your example for off NW 10th. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Portland to May on the northside is almost exactly like your first photo for instance.

Will it be perfect? No. Not much is.

Yea Portland to Meridian from 10th to 16th is in mostly good shape and the juxtaposition of OSU-OKC could be a strong anchor/catalyst. That's the only place in OKC-limits with potential for this type of investment west of 44/Hefner pkwy that I see though. Who knows, maybe even jumpstarting that area could encourage their surrounding communities to engage in a little tactical sprawl repair to make really great places.

It still goes back to the problem with picking and choosing "winner" neighborhoods for MAPS vs "losers" just because some people were lucky/savvy enough to purchase in places with a decent street grid. I truly believe a MAPS 4 Neighborhoods will either be a nonstarter for this reason or will be ultimately ineffective by spreading money too thin across areas that aren't built to support that type of investment to begin with.

Also, Bethany could probably engage in this type of investment independently given parts of their street grid, which would be valuable for the overall NW OKC community.

[Montreal]

But maybe that's what MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should look like. Pick 4 places with underlying potential in 4 quadrants outside of the 44/40/235 core with resources to revitalize them and the beginnings of plans to connect them effectively with transit.

• North: Old downtown Britton

• East: JFK neighborhood east of OUHSC

• South: Capitol Hill/SW 29th

• West: Corbin Park by OSU-OKC

• Core: Transit up Classen to 23rd or 50th and towards those 4 quadrants

A simultaneous investment in Bethany could be doubly beneficial for NW OKC.

[hoya]

Hoya's MAPS plan

The purpose of MAPS, as I see it, is to 1) improve the quality of life for citizens, 2) improve the economic health of the city, and 3) to move OKC forward to make it the city we want it to be in the future. Ideally every MAPS project should do all 3 of these. At a minimum, it should accomplish 2 of the 3. But at every step, we should keep in mind the third goal -- we should be constantly moving forward towards remaking the city into a better place to live. Every thing we do should make OKC of 30 years from now a much better place than OKC today.

With that in mind, here's my proposal for the next big MAPS. This doesn't necessarily have to be MAPS 4. We could allow the tax could lapse, we could use a MAPS 4 for some incremental improvements (expand streetcar to Chesapeake, tear down crappy apartments on 10th, build some sidewalks, etc). But this is my plan for the big one, the one that transforms OKC in a major way.

It is a combination of the traditional MAPS system, an agreement with neighboring cities, a set of municipal bonds, and a set of TIF programs. It would probably be the most aggressive capital spending project the metro area has ever undertaken. It is primarily transportation oriented, with funding and requirements for TOD.

The Plan:

A Regional Transit Authority has already been formed (in real life, not just in Hoyaworld), bringing OKC, Moore, Norman, Del City, MWC, and Edmond together to cooperate on this. Each of the cities would hold a MAPS-style election to get their share of money for the regional mass transit system. This is the plan that the city already seems to be moving forward on. We've seen the drawings with the colored lines going around the metro area, showing rail systems and rapid streetcar, etc. My plan adds on to this one.

Where mine goes farther is a series of bonds and an aggressive TIF program to ensure that these areas get the maximum benefit possible from the mass transit investment. Let's reinvest in our cities, and do it right. The bond money and the TIF money would fund building quality transit-oriented development at each rail stop. We don't want park and ride systems there. You shouldn't arrive at the Midwest City rail stop and see a massive parking lot there. Some structured parking would exist, but primarily we want a walkable area with shopping, housing, entertainment, offices, etc. These do not have to be incredibly large to begin with. Each city will set aside a certain area at each stop that will be dedicated for TOD.

So, each new stop will have the area within a certain distance (say, a 5 minute walk) rezoned so that it follows form-based codes. This will make sure that future development in the area creates the most benefit for the community. When private development takes off (and it will), there should be guidelines in place so developers know exactly what to build, and how to do it. Most suburban developers in this area really have no idea what we're looking for here. It will be a brand new experience for them and they need to have guidance and support.

Bond money will be used to install sidewalks, bike paths, and other types of infrastructure to connect existing neighborhoods to the train station, to help prepare the cities for the development that will follow. There are a lot of people who already live in these cities, and we should make it as easy as possible for them to get to the station without using a car. So any neighborhood within a mile of the station should have improvements to it that maximize the abilities of the people in it to get to the station. This might mean putting in pedestrian bridges over a creek that runs through the neighborhood. It might mean putting in street signs directing you to the station, with walk times and bike times listed. It might mean putting in better crosswalks on busy streets, or putting in a lot more sidewalks.

Bond money and TIF money will also be used to create, perhaps in partnership with a private developer, the first TOD along each stop. This does not have to be massive, but it has to be done right. I'd like to see at least 5 or 6 high-quality buildings (no EIFS) at each stop, each building 3 or 4 stories tall, in a small area around the stops, with shopping and offices, but primarily housing. This has the advantage of showing people exactly what they've paid for, exactly the type of development they can expect to see. In the coming years, all new construction within the 5 minute-walk area will follow the pattern. Each city can have its own architectural style and its own feel.

The point of all this is to push the city towards quality development as fast as we can. Slow progression puts the city at an economic disadvantage. For some areas, like Del City and Midwest City, this will be a big boost for them, raising the perception of the cities and bringing new, quality development. If living in the Del City TOD area means you can live in a cool townhouse that is a 2 minute walk from a lot of amenities, and you are right next to the streetcar that brings you to downtown, it elimnates some of the stigma that has come to be associated with that city (and as a Del City boy, I want that). It makes the city, at least the new TOD part, much more desirable. For Moore, Norman, and Edmond, it ensures that at least a portion of their growth will be in a small area, improving the tax base and reducing future tax burdens that come with sprawling growth.

[bchris02]

But maybe that's what MAPS 4 Neighborhoods should look like. Pick 4 places with underlying potential in 4 quadrants outside of the 44/40/235 core with resources to revitalize them and the beginnings of plans to connect them effectively with transit.

• North: Old downtown Britton

• East: JFK neighborhood east of OUHSC

• South: Capitol Hill/SW 29th

• West: Corbin Park by OSU-OKC

• Core: Transit up Classen to 23rd or 50th and towards those 4 quadrants

A simultaneous investment in Bethany could be doubly beneficial for NW OKC.

This would be a good idea and is something I could get behind because those areas have potential and existing focal points from which development could spring. I agree about old downtown Britton. Its a gem waiting to be rediscovered and revitalized.

[Teo9969]

I shared this upthread:

Attachment 11374

This is a perfect example of an interrupted street grid. And the the thing is, the problem is not necessarily that NW 111th St./Ct don't connect…It's that they are blocked off. The only way to really make sure that your urbanization efforts make a lasting impact is to tear down the homes at the end of the Cul-de-Sacs so that there is access to the larger developments. In that way, you could maybe solve the NW corner of this intersection without tearing down any commercial buildings, but the NE would require some major overhaul.

Here is a look at NW 16th around MacArthur



Marked are connectivity issues. These issues need to be resolved if we're going to invest in the area, and they're not going to be resolved by individual land owners. Someone will need to get control of major points in this area and knock lots of buildings down and put lots of connective infrastructure in.

There is certainly an opportunity for investment, but again…here's the issue: This is a $150M - $300M project…That's outside the scope of not only MAPS, but even a Bond issue. And nobody will care about this.

This is a private sector problem.