Whitewater Facility

[Urbanized]

Did you loan Chris your password?

[betts]

We have to have the money to build the grandstands. That's how MAPS is structured. I agree that it's more important to properly build the whitewater facility than to have grandstands. If for some reason sales tax collections are higher than expected the next few years we can always add them back in. Or, they can be put into a MAPS 4 package early in the timeline. I'd rather have less built well than more built on the cheap.

[Plutonic Panda]

my aunt read about this in the paper the other day and I had to still explain to her that it's not another White Water theme park... People know about this but they don't know...

my grandmother said the same thing.

[Spartan]

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

Except when the cameras are rolling all that the city leadership have to say on the matter is what a great job they do. Jim Couch spent 10 min praising the accuracy of the city's economic forecasters when approving the new FY budget.

[Bullbear]

i'd say its usually a case of " easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" once the public is excited about a project and see renderings then they buy into the budget more so than the price tag being accurate from the start. just my opinion

[Just the facts]

I know where the City can get $5 million easy - it's the same $5 million they pledged to the AICC as a 'private donation'. I agree with OKvision4U, at some point dragging your own lawn chair to an event has to stop, especially at a facility with year around activities. If it was a one-off or annual type event then fine, bring your own chair, but there are events here on a regular basis. Bringing your own chair every time isn't acceptable.

[catch22]

^ Especially if we are trying to build a walkable city.

I'm not walking a lawn chair with me half a mile (or more) to the river. And I'm not setting said lawn chair next to me at a restaurant if I take a detour or change my mind and go see a movie with a friend I bumped into on the street.

[Spartan]

I know where the City can get $5 million easy - it's the same $5 million they pledged to the AICC as a 'private donation'. I agree with OKvision4U, at some point dragging your own lawn chair to an event has to stop, especially at a facility with year around activities. If it was a one-off or annual type event then fine, bring your own chair, but there are events here on a regular basis. Bringing your own chair every time isn't acceptable.

I thought you meant that the city keeps bringing lawn chairs to it's own event (the AICC) but I suppose you weren't speaking metaphorically and just meant the grandstands.

[Just the facts]

I thought you meant that the city keeps bringing lawn chairs to it's own event (the AICC) but I suppose you weren't speaking metaphorically and just meant the grandstands.

Let me clarify. The City needs more money for the Boathouse District attractions. the City also pledged $5 million in 'private funds' to the AICC. Since the AICC isn't going to be finished just take that $5 million and switch it to the Boathouse grandstand project. People should not have to bring their own lawn chairs to events at the river. There could be a place for people who want to do that, but not everyone should have to. As catch22 was saying, people in The Edge should not have to bring furniture with them on the streetcar to attend an event on the river. Situations like this are a constant reminder that despite the rhetoric of local politicians, they don't seem to fully understand what 'walkable' means or what urban living is all about.

[hoya]

I'd just say it means that there's not enough funding available for everything they want to do. Remember that they planned to have seating. They're just experiencing cost overruns.

[Spartan]

Let me clarify. The City needs more money for the Boathouse District attractions. the City also pledged $5 million in 'private funds' to the AICC. Since the AICC isn't going to be finished just take that $5 million and switch it to the Boathouse grandstand project. People should not have to bring their own lawn chairs to events at the river. There could be a place for people who want to do that, but not everyone should have to. As catch22 was saying, people in The Edge should not have to bring furniture with them on the streetcar to attend an event on the river. Situations like this are a constant reminder that despite the rhetoric of local politicians, they don't seem to fully understand what 'walkable' means or what urban living is all about.

I was just joking, actually..

[Dustin]

From NewsOK:

Bids for MAPS 3 expo center come in under estimate
Oklahoma City officials received a dose of much-needed good news on Thursday when bids for the MAPS 3 expo center came in under estimate. The meeting to unseal the bids came a week after bids on a planned white water center on the Oklahoma River were unsealed and came in several million dollars over estimate. A story will be posted soon.

[Dustin]

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 expo center bids come in under estimates | News OK

[bradh]

when was the estimate for the whitewater facility calculated?

[Larry OKC]

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 expo center bids come in under estimates | News OK

One thing to keep in mind is not to get too excited by a bid that comes in way under budget. The same thing happened with MAPS and the Arena. Came in way under and they discovered a mistake, trying to keep costs under control, they value engineered it and cut a list of 20 or so amenities (many latter added back in with the NBA tax) and the Arena still came in over budget.

To earlier posts...in defense of the City, they do an excellent job of projecting long-term revenue (short-term can be tricky, i.e., NBA tax). It is the cost side of the equation where they have more trouble.

[Rover]

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

[Bellaboo]

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

IIRC, Flintco did it for what they bid, 64 million. They just didn't work overtime.

[Plutonic Panda]

Discussions continue on Oklahoma City whitewater park | News OK

[Larry OKC]

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

I can't locate the particular article that mentioned it, but a few mentioned that to keep costs under control, they cut certain things (not enumerated but seems like there were 20+) and decided to build it "builder's white" since we didn't have a tenant. It was the City's stated intent to eventually have the cost of those amenities paid for by the tenant. The City didn't stick to that announced intent as we split the cost with the 89ers/Redhawks and paid for all of it with the Sonics/Thunder

IIRC, Flintco did it for what they bid, 64 million. They just didn't work overtime.

Don't know if the scope of work changed or what happened exactly, but between the bid and the final cost, that is an increase $22.9M (over the bid amount).

Council launches $64.8 million arena, Journal Record, 4/7/99
This budget gap was even more pronounced than what Voter's were told pre-vote…

The 1st number under each project/date opened is the amount voters were told just prior to the election, except as noted, come from an Oklahoman article, Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan (Oklahoman, 11/14/93). The 2nd amount is the Final Cost from the City’s Website. Amounts in red are the $$$ amount it went over.

Ford Center (2002)
The Ford gets rather convoluted with the numbers. There were the Voters Told ($78.9), Budgeted amounts (after the vote, $74.8), bid amounts that went even lower ($64.8M), then estimates that were as high as $93M for a "complete" Arena at one point).

$78.9M (pre-vote)
$87.7M (final cost)
---------
$8.8M (over)

[mkjeeves]

Construction cost projecting is not an easy task. There are so many people, companies, factories and suppliers involved in large projects it's just a dart board guess without firm numbers. Even with firm quotes from subs and suppliers, it's still not easy.

On the arena:

Oklahoma City leaders, recognizing a bargain, eagerly approved a $64.8 million bid to Flintco for construction of a downtown arena Tuesday.
The bid is more than $10 million less than had been budgeted for what is the largest single public works project in the city's history.
The bid is good news for the city's downtown improvement efforts, since the arena is the largest of the nine Metropolitan Area Projects.
Flintco's bid, however, was millions under prices submitted by competitors, and company officials have told The Oklahoman their bid contained a "significant" error.
The error was never identified, and Flintco decided two weeks ago to stick by its bid.
"We are excited about the project. We're not looking back, we're looking forward," Flintco Vice President Mark Grimes said.

<snip>

The $64,858,568 bid includes all but six of 27 alternate items attached to the project. The alternates were portions of the job that could have been trimmed to save money.
The rejected alternates include a visitors' locker room, administrative offices, a parking lot, street lighting, a shared plaza with the nearby Myriad and temperature controls.
The city staff recommended delaying a decision on the locker room and administrative offices until a lease is signed with a tenant. The parking lot, lighting and plaza were delayed due to the possible construction of a hotel south of the Myriad and east of the arena.

City Grabs Bargain For Arena Construction | News OK

[JoninATX]

Even though cost does exceed expectations, this project needs to move forward.

[Plutonic Panda]

Agreed

[OKCisOK4me]

Agreed as well.

[bradh]

Moving forward is not in question. I know the low bidder is working hard to find VE for the city. Contrary to popular belief, this has nothing to do with bid padding. In fact, on a lot of these major projects you'll see very slim margins just to get your name associated with the job.

Did someone ever answer when this estimate was given? Was it in 2008/2009? If so, costs have changed dramatically. Back then you had a lot of hungry contractors, now not so much.

[OKCisOK4me]

It's like any estimation. Remember the general estimate for the new I-40? It happens.