6 months later.

[Mikemarsh51]

Kinda sad day OKC, We lost 22 police officers, 29 firefighters and countless other city employess. This is totally unneeded, the city amended the budget in February. The city refuses to release the new budget numbers related to the amended budget. They are just going back to the we are $19,000,000.00 short line. Remember they added $12,000.00.00 from fund balances to correct the budget. If you live in the city you are being shortchanged by your mayor and council. Just thought you ought to know.

[barnold]

Color me confused...

If the FD got better rates and better insurance by going with their own policy pool, doesn't that mean their premiums are lower? Wouldn't it make since to reimburse the employees at the lower rate (actual cost)? They are still getting the insurance paid for (or at least the same percentage), right?

I had a similar situation at work. I worked a 4 day week, 10 hour day. Yet when it came to Holiday pay, I wouldn't get paid for a complete shift (only get paid for 8 hours instead of 10). Was told that it wouldn't be fair to everyone else if I got paid for those 2 hours and they didn't. I pointed out that they are getting paid for their scheduled shift hours, just as I should. If I worked a 6 day week (6.66 hrs/day) I wouldn't expect to get paid for a full 8 hours, just the amount of my shift. In order for the 5 day/8 hr/day person to get a full paycheck, they had to do nothing. If I wanted to get a full paycheck, I had to work an extra two hours to come out even.

So you're saying punish a group of employees for going out on their own, taking the risk of finding their own coverage at a lesser expense with better coverage. Therefore they shouldn't be asked how they could save the city money, but they should not receive the same amount as the rest of the city employees?

As to your example of hours, I'll go there all day long with you. We work 216 hours in a 28 day cycle, but are only paid for 16 hours out of every 24hrs. I'm guessing you work a 40 hour work week and wouldn't mind only being paid for 30 hours then.....
The city considers 8 hours of every 24 sleep time and doesn't pay for it, regardless of how often you respond at night. If you don't think we aren't up more during the night than we sleep, send me your phone in a message and I'll call you everytime we get up and come back to the firehouse.

And yes, when we take off from the station we are only charged with 16hrs of vacation so it all must be legit right? I'll have to let my family respond to that one since I've missed more Christmas', birthdays and anniversaries than I've made in the last 24 years. They are the ones that I hold in high regards for allowing me to serve the citizens of Okc on their special days. The politicians have no clue what it means to "have to work" since they get every holiday they want off and never get their vacations cancelled due to manpower shortages.

[Larry OKC]

barnold,

Think you took my post the wrong way. How is it punishing them? They got better coverage for less. If you are looking at $$$ amounts it looks unfair but if you look at it from the standpoint that your expenses are being covered...

Which is more fair? Getting a blanket per diem amount for lunch when out of town (eat where you want, but you pocket the change or make up the difference) or a policy that says we will reimburse you for actual expenses (usually with a cap equal to the per diem amount). Depends on your situation which is the fairest way to handle it.

Not trying to compare my 40 hr work week with Fire/Police at all. Apples and Kumquats.

[rcjunkie]

barnold,

Think you took my post the wrong way. How is it punishing them? They got better coverage for less. If you are looking at $$$ amounts it looks unfair but if you look at it from the standpoint that your expenses are being covered...

Which is more fair? Getting a blanket per diem amount for lunch when out of town (eat where you want, but you pocket the change or make up the difference) or a policy that says we will reimburse you for actual expenses (usually with a cap equal to the per diem amount). Depends on your situation which is the fairest way to handle it.

Not trying to compare my 40 hr work week with Fire/Police at all. Apples and Kumquats.

Larry, your wasting your time trying to reason, do as I have, read their quotes, have a good laugh and move on.

[barnold]

RC,
Always quick with the sarcasm but never with true accurate statements or answers. Keep missing you at the council meetings for lunch. Thought you were going to be there to scream and holler about the 29 fire positions being lost?

[rcjunkie]

RC,
Always quick with the sarcasm but never with true accurate statements or answers. Keep missing you at the council meetings for lunch. Thought you were going to be there to scream and holler about the 29 fire positions being lost?

Laugh Laugh Laugh

[Wambo36]

Who would have guessed? A man of knowledgable and detailed answers and a man of your word. LOL

[rcjunkie]

Who would have guessed? A man of knowledgable and detailed answers and a man of your word. LOL

Like a cockroach in the dark!!, he resurfaces.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Well guess what? The city is still up to its old tricks, however, they just opened a new bag of them for this coming fiscal year.

Just thought you might want to know, they just cut 29 firefighter positions out of the budget. It even gets better, they are going as far now as asking for an additional 5% budget cut for the upcoming fiscal year on top of the what they were previously asking for. In addition, the city is now paying some of its firefighters now out of the Maps 3use tax and using those general fund monies that were going for the fire dept. to fund some of the city other pet peeve projects. The shell game starts again. This will give the appearance to the city constituents that they are following through on their MAPS 3promises, lol. Which in reality, you the citizens have 29 fewer firefighters on the streets and judging from this next fiscal years budgets cuts could be as high as an additional 50 fewer firefighters on the streets for a total of 79 fewer firefighters on the streets. This is good stuff.

Does anyone remember the public safety sales tax that was voted on and passed in 1989. It is a 3/4 cent sales tax that is supposed to fund 200 additional firefighters and 200 additional police officers on top of the fire and police that were on staff in 1989.
In 1989, fire dept had 948 firefighters, today we have 919 and still dropping, could be to the tune of 869 by the end of next fiscal year. Guess what, we the citizens of this city are still paying for 948 firefighters and the police are in the same boat, I just dont have their numbers handy. When is enough going to enough, to get some action by an interested party.

We either need to get these public safety numbers back up or we need the citizens to repeal this 3/4 cent sales tax supposedly ear marked for public safety. Whats it going to take. These guys are going to continue to play these and other shell games until someone of authority takes action and slams the city hands in the cookie jar. Its going to take someone such as the Oklahoma County District Attorney to do a full investigation into this. Is their not anyone out there who wants to make a name for themselves by exposing corruption at its finest. I dare you. I double dog dare you.

REMEMBER A YES VOTE FOR MAPS 3 WILL PUT MORE FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS ON THE STREET. LOL. GOOD ONE.
AND SOME OF YOU WONDER WHY WE WERE OPPOSED TO MAPS 3. THE PROJECTS ARE GREAT, THE PEOPLE THAT THEY REPRESENT ARE GREAT.
THE GUYS PULLING THE PUPPET STRINGS ON THE CITIZENS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN, NO SO GREAT.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I cant wait for someone to try to justify this from the city side.

[Midtowner]

How much did a firefighter/police officer cost in 1989 vs. today? How much has the city budget grown? Have salaries outpaced budget growth?

[okcsmokeandfire]

How much did a firefighter/police officer cost in 1989 vs. today? How much has the city budget grown? Have salaries outpaced budget growth?

Good questions, I dont have those numbers off the top of my head but can get them.
But the thing that I find ironic is that their are other cities in our 10 city avg. whom are making it just fine, with depts as large and larger. We are the only city in our 10 city avg. that has a dedicated public safety sales tax to fund additional fire and police. That public safety sales tax provides a tremendous general fund relief for the city.
If they are making it just fine without this public safety sales tax, we should be doing much better than fine.

[barnold]

Midtowner,
I'll go and dig up the cost of firefighter/police in 1989 if you can dig up the total revenues from the 3/4 cent sales tax in 1989 compared to now. While your at it, look at fire/police budget from the general fund in 1989 compared to now. Deal?

[Mikemarsh51]

What a neat thing that is going on. 7/1/10 the city made cuts to police and fire and nobody has said a word. Now there is a hint that since nobody complained they are going to reduce the remaining number of engine companies from 35 to 30. I hope it's only a rumor.

[ljbab728]

What a neat thing that is going on. 7/1/10 the city made cuts to police and fire and nobody has said a word. Now there is a hint that since nobody complained they are going to reduce the remaining number of engine companies from 35 to 30. I hope it's only a rumor.

No one said anything or complained? Obviously they weren't reading this thread.

[rcjunkie]

This savings plus the fact that a judge ruled in the City's favor re: 1% pay increase, the budget looks better every day.

[barnold]

Actually the ruling of the judge said that the arbitrator couldn't throw out the cities last best offer, even though it was illegal according to the Oklahoma rules of binding arbitration. So where does this leave it all? Probably in the courts for another couple of years.
RC-it's never been about a raise of 1%, it's been offered back to the city politicians multiple times by the firefighters. It's been about manpower, equipment, safety of firefighters and the citizens we protect. If they do not care, we will continue to do our jobs; but we've never been a passive bunch and will continue to fight for the betterment of our city. Cancel a bus route that affects 40 people a day and they will fill the chambers, but if you cancel your fire insurance you won't complain until your house burns down. We are your fire insurance and hope that you never need us, but if you do need us, I wonder if you'll think of how long it takes us to get there and why? Why wasn't there a ladder that could reach the 4th floor window to save those that were trapped? Why were there initially only 3 firefighters trying to put out my fire instead of 6 or more? All of those little things add up to YOUR safety. If you don't care, we will for you.

[Steve]

Question - could the manpower issue be resolved by the city expanding EMSA resources (which has less expensive labor costs) so they can respond more to car accidents and reducing fire response to accidents with critical injuries or requiring jaws of life? I'm just recalling the reports from last year that show fire responses way down, and what is keeping firefighters so busy are accidents and medical calls.

[bombermwc]

I believe that really would help out a lot. So many calls are medical calls, if EMSA was staffed properly, the firefighters could, oh I dont know, fight fires.

But that's not going to happen. EMSA is a for-profit agency and as long as they are in control, that will be their focus. They think they are doing a good job, but we all know they suck. The paramedics are all just stretched too thin by the administration that sucks all the cash flow. It's one group that should never have been allowed to exist.

[Steve]

What a lot of people don't know is that the cost associated with the private for-profit operation of the ambulances is, I've always been told, offset by the ability of the ambulances to recover insurance and medicare dollars, and the lower cost of paramedics who are soley tasked with medical calls versus firefighters who are paid far more because of the hazards associated with responding to fires, chemical spills etc. What I've been told is what this city is doing with firefighters is having a phd teach college courses and elementary courses..... I've always wondered why the fire union ever agreed to get into responding to medical calls.

[rcjunkie]

What a lot of people don't know is that the cost associated with the private for-profit operation of the ambulances is, I've always been told, offset by the ability of the ambulances to recover insurance and medicare dollars, and the lower cost of paramedics who are soley tasked with medical calls versus firefighters who are paid far more because of the hazards associated with responding to fires, chemical spills etc. What I've been told is what this city is doing with firefighters is having a phd teach college courses and elementary courses..... I've always wondered why the fire union ever agreed to get into responding to medical calls.

Job security, contract negotation leverage, make them appear busier than they really are.

[rcjunkie]

Actually the ruling of the judge said that the arbitrator couldn't throw out the cities last best offer, even though it was illegal according to the Oklahoma rules of binding arbitration. So where does this leave it all? Probably in the courts for another couple of years.
RC-it's never been about a raise of 1%, it's been offered back to the city politicians multiple times by the firefighters. It's been about manpower, equipment, safety of firefighters and the citizens we protect. If they do not care, we will continue to do our jobs; but we've never been a passive bunch and will continue to fight for the betterment of our city. Cancel a bus route that affects 40 people a day and they will fill the chambers, but if you cancel your fire insurance you won't complain until your house burns down. We are your fire insurance and hope that you never need us, but if you do need us, I wonder if you'll think of how long it takes us to get there and why? Why wasn't there a ladder that could reach the 4th floor window to save those that were trapped? Why were there initially only 3 firefighters trying to put out my fire instead of 6 or more? All of those little things add up to YOUR safety. If you don't care, we will for you.

If it's never been about the raise, why does the union continue to fight for it in court.

[MGE1977]

Question - could the manpower issue be resolved by the city expanding EMSA resources (which has less expensive labor costs) so they can respond more to car accidents and reducing fire response to accidents with critical injuries or requiring jaws of life? I'm just recalling the reports from last year that show fire responses way down, and what is keeping firefighters so busy are accidents and medical calls.

Steve, I don't know if this would be wise. As it stands the best medics, and most tenured and or least burned out are fire medics. Rarely will you see a 20 year street paramedic unless employed by the FD. Right now, I recognize maybe 2 of the 12-14 rides I make a day.

I also think that it is misleading to say that fires are "way down." The split has been 80% medical and other rides to 20% fire for a very long time. Our ride totals increase yearly by fairly significant margins therefore it stands to reason that fires are also increasing. Already we are at 46,500(ish) rides this year with 5 more months to count and the biggest bulk of the fire season ahead (winter). Personally I am good for 7 working structures this year (starting in January), 4 vehicles (1 of which was threatening a structure), and countless rubbish and random materials fires. This is a decrease from years past due to the construction of the Penn bridge which interferes with our response to that neighboring district, and the housing of Engine 7 in Station 19 while their house is being gutted for remodel. I can forsee almost 2 fires per month by season's end for the year's total. This is one shift, one station, we have 3.

Not every station will carry these numbers, but houses that traditionally don't see a lot of fire are on the march and the apartments on the North side are catching with great frequency these days. Our numbers as a city are offset by outlying stations whose fires while usually more developed due to longer response times, are fewer in frequency. Perhaps the greater importance for these stations is their ability to respond to medical and other emergencies. Emsa will never staff out as far as these stations no matter how well staffed they are.

RC why you are fighting this fight is beyond me. I'm asking you to leave this thread alone. You don't belong here because you have nothing of worth to say and you are inflamatory for its sake alone.

"Job security, contract negotation leverage, make them appear busier than they really are." -RC

"This savings plus the fact that a judge ruled in the City's favor re: 1% pay increase, the budget looks better every day." - RC

This is really dispicable. We have a right to our opinions as do you but following a thread just to ridicule and debase them is not cool.

It sounds like you have a great deal of time on your hand for constructive activities (boating, fishing, enjoying retirement) in the scheme of things your ravings mean nothing. Nobody, really nobody and I mean this genuinely gives a shiny red cent about your posts because they are without worth. They are worthless. You will get a rise out of a fireman because you are purposely choosing your words to that effect. Look at your previous posts, besides us, nobody cares what you think. Let us fight this fight, with those people who matter, people who argue their side because they feel they are as right as we feel we are.

You are just background noise. I have a feeling that with this post, rather than bow out gracefully, you will just turn up the volume and that is your most deplorable trait.

[rcjunkie]

Steve, I don't know if this would be wise. As it stands the best medics, and most tenured and or least burned out are fire medics. Rarely will you see a 20 year street paramedic unless employed by the FD. Right now, I recognize maybe 2 of the 12-14 rides I make a day.

I also think that it is misleading to say that fires are "way down." The split has been 80% medical and other rides to 20% fire for a very long time. Our ride totals increase yearly by fairly significant margins therefore it stands to reason that fires are also increasing. Already we are at 46,500(ish) rides this year with 5 more months to count and the biggest bulk of the fire season ahead (winter). Personally I am good for 7 working structures this year (starting in January), 4 vehicles (1 of which was threatening a structure), and countless rubbish and random materials fires. This is a decrease from years past due to the construction of the Penn bridge which interferes with our response to that neighboring district, and the housing of Engine 7 in Station 19 while their house is being gutted for remodel. I can forsee almost 2 fires per month by season's end for the year's total. This is one shift, one station, we have 3.

Not every station will carry these numbers, but houses that traditionally don't see a lot of fire are on the march and the apartments on the North side are catching with great frequency these days. Our numbers as a city are offset by outlying stations whose fires while usually more developed due to longer response times, are fewer in frequency. Perhaps the greater importance for these stations is their ability to respond to medical and other emergencies. Emsa will never staff out as far as these stations no matter how well staffed they are.

RC why you are fighting this fight is beyond me. I'm asking you to leave this thread alone. You don't belong here because you have nothing of worth to say and you are inflamatory for its sake alone.

"Job security, contract negotation leverage, make them appear busier than they really are." -RC

"This savings plus the fact that a judge ruled in the City's favor re: 1% pay increase, the budget looks better every day." - RC

This is really dispicable. We have a right to our opinions as do you but following a thread just to ridicule and debase them is not cool.

It sounds like you have a great deal of time on your hand for constructive activities (boating, fishing, enjoying retirement) in the scheme of things your ravings mean nothing. Nobody, really nobody and I mean this genuinely gives a shiny red cent about your posts because they are without worth. They are worthless. You will get a rise out of a fireman because you are purposely choosing your words to that effect. Look at your previous posts, besides us, nobody cares what you think. Let us fight this fight, with those people who matter, people who argue their side because they feel they are as right as we feel we are.

You are just background noise. I have a feeling that with this post, rather than bow out gracefully, you will just turn up the volume and that is your most deplorable trait.

Isn't it great to live in a free socitey, one where everyone is entitled to have, and voice ,said opinion, take care and have a great day.

[fuzzytoad]

Isn't it great to live in a free socitey, one where everyone is entitled to have, and voice ,said opinion, take care and have a great day.

CONGRATULATIONS

you are now the #1 hypocrite on this forum!

[rcjunkie]

CONGRATULATIONS

you are now the #1 hypocrite on this forum!

Is my trophy/prize in the mail or do I need to pick it up!!