Public safety #1

[Wambo36]

It still remains to be seen whether the Use Tax will be used in such a way. My understanding was that at the time, that was an offer made by the city in order to gain the support of the unions, but the offer was rejected. I'm not sure how in that case, you could reasonably consider the city bound morally or otherwise.

Watch some footage of the council meetings when the mayor brings this up to the council. He has no illusions about the promises he made and whether they need to be kept. He is having trouble convincing the council, but make no mistake he knows he's morally bound to this. Too many commercials making the same promise way after the unions turned down the citys offer.

Were they or were they not on board with MAPS 3?

So where were you singing their praises when they were donating time and money to pass the previous MAPS initiatives? Not that anyone expects or wants you to sing praises but you sure seem to hold a grudge over this last one. You appear to be one of those "What have you done for me lately?" people.

[kevinpate]

Not to hammer the point, but seems maybe the focus for F& P ought not to be the mayor.

Sounds like your mayor is advocating application of the non-dedicated companion use tax from Maps for Kids and/or Arena improvements tax (M3 use tax doesn't exist as yet) toward F & P needs, and it is the rest of the council that isn't tapping their toes and singing along.

What type of call in, write in, stop by the office effort is underway to the council members not on board with the use tax idea? Those paths seem far more productive, at least to me, than repetitive grumbling about the mayor of a weak mayor city structure.

That's not a what have you done lately sort of question, but yah, it is certainly a are ya sure you're proceeding efficiently toward your goals question.

Are there some folks out and abut who wouldn't mind seeing F & P unions take a hard knock for opposing M3? Yeah, no doubt. But if it weren't M3 related, it would be related to something else. Some folk just ain't happy unless they're mad about something. Are they the majority? Nah.

Lots of folks who voted Y on M# and lots of folks who dinna bother to vote at all, favor proper F &P support. they may differ on what is and what is not proper, but they're aren't gunning to see engines mothballed or staff numbers slashed.

[Midtowner]

Too many commercials making the same promise way after the unions turned down the citys offer.

And the M3 commercials were correct -- these improvements = more revenue = more revenue for F&P. Beyond that, the specific use of the Use Tax was something oft addressed in the hypothetical, but I don't think it was ever as strong as being a 'promise' as Porter and Sipe seem to want to imply.

So where were you singing their praises when they were donating time and money to pass the previous MAPS initiatives?

During MAPS I, I was in middle school. During MAPS For Kids, I was in the middle of my undergraduate career. Didn't have much of a voice or vested interest in either of those campaigns.

Not that anyone expects or wants you to sing praises but you sure seem to hold a grudge over this last one. You appear to be one of those "What have you done for me lately?" people.

No grudge really... just a sense of justice. The unions shouldn't be allowed t benefit from their treachery. I believe that sort of behavior should have negative consequences, and if it's incentivized, we can basically guarantee that when MAPS IV comes along, the unions will hold out to get their cut again before signing on, or we'll see a repeat of what happened with MAPS III. If, instead, they realize that it's in their own best interests to want a bright future for this city, then they'll get on board. It' just important that they know what's in their best interests, if you catch my drift.

[Wambo36]

During MAPS I, I was in middle school. During MAPS For Kids, I was in the middle of my undergraduate career. Didn't have much of a voice or vested interest in either of those campaigns.

So if it happened before you were aware enough to care, it doesn't count. Maybe before you start demonizing the "treacherous P&F unions" you might want to familiarize yourself with their history in this city. Even though you were too young to notice, they were working to make this city a better and safer place through their activism. One issue doesn't constitute a reason to ignore the past.

[Midtowner]

One issue doesn't constitute a reason to ignore the past.

Sure it does. Their current stance is a 180 from their past stances and is clearly motivated by greed.

They are only as valuable to making this city a better place as they want to be and they've chosen to go against it, so yes, I do think that especially if the city wants to send a message, there should be consequences for opposing progress.

Further, again, if there are no negative consequences to the unions for their current stand, then acting in their own self interests (regardless of the detriment of other stakeholders), they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.

[Wambo36]

they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.

Well, for an educated person, you're pretty ignorant of how these unions "roll". Do a little research. You've gone past sounding like a "what have you done for me lately" person and pretty much proven that to be your mindset.

[andy157]

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?

Been out of pocket, sorry for the delay. As I have mentioned to you before, this issue of how the PSST gets spent, has been spent, or will be spent can get very convoluted, very fast.

It is hard for me to convey in writing the 20 years of history surrounding this tax. If interested, I could e-mail you the Journal Entry of Judgement which sheds more light on the issue.

I have been pretty critical of how the tax has been spent and how it's intended purpose has not been adhered to, but that's my opinion and there are those who will disagree. Here are a couple of quick thoughts on the subject at hand. The PSST was intended to provide for new, improved, additional, enhanced, Fire service, not to provide relief to the General Fund. Secondly, if theres 2+ million setting in reserve then fix or replace the fricking Rescue Ladders. The tax was meant to be spent, not saved.

[andy157]

Not to hammer the point, but seems maybe the focus for F& P ought not to be the mayor.

Sounds like your mayor is advocating application of the non-dedicated companion use tax from Maps for Kids and/or Arena improvements tax (M3 use tax doesn't exist as yet) toward F & P needs, and it is the rest of the council that isn't tapping their toes and singing along.

What type of call in, write in, stop by the office effort is underway to the council members not on board with the use tax idea? Those paths seem far more productive, at least to me, than repetitive grumbling about the mayor of a weak mayor city structure.

That's not a what have you done lately sort of question, but yah, it is certainly a are ya sure you're proceeding efficiently toward your goals question.

Are there some folks out and abut who wouldn't mind seeing F & P unions take a hard knock for opposing M3? Yeah, no doubt. But if it weren't M3 related, it would be related to something else. Some folk just ain't happy unless they're mad about something. Are they the majority? Nah.

Lots of folks who voted Y on M# and lots of folks who dinna bother to vote at all, favor proper F &P support. they may differ on what is and what is not proper, but they're aren't gunning to see engines mothballed or staff numbers slashed.

Bingo. The F & P, as well as the General Public, should be telling the City Council.... Please, don't make the Mayor out to be a lier now, for what he said back then, when you sat back and allowed him to say what he did. OH and don't forget, Councilman Marrs was right there by his side. If the Council didn't give the Mayor the authority to make promises, it sure was made to look as if they had.

[andy157]

Sure it does. Their current stance is a 180 from their past stances and is clearly motivated by greed.

They are only as valuable to making this city a better place as they want to be and they've chosen to go against it, so yes, I do think that especially if the city wants to send a message, there should be consequences for opposing progress.

Further, again, if there are no negative consequences to the unions for their current stand, then acting in their own self interests (regardless of the detriment of other stakeholders), they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.

Greed? I must be missing something.

[Mikemarsh51]

Well, you got me now. We did not support Maps3!!!!!

Instead, we said lets wait a year and make sure we get through the tough time that is coming. Let's take care of our needs before we take care of the wants. Would one year or maybe two have made a real difference on the park, trails, whitewater rafting center or convention center? I say no it would not have. Mr. Cornett said we have to do this now, it will never be possible to do maps3 if we dont do it now.

Well you have hope, whoopee! Maybe you can bottle that and send it to the 400 or so city employees that are being looked at for termination. I am sure they would sleep better.

And by the way, the use tax ploy was a political tactic used by the city to buy support. We rejected it because it was wrong.

[OKCGUY3]

Midtowner, You seem to be saying that the Police Officers and Firefighters should experience problems for their stance against Maps 3. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't their whole reason for being against Maps 3 because they were saying there were problems with police and fire staffing, funding, equipment, etc.....? Well? The Pro Maps 3 distorted that message into being something about raises. Guess what, now that the vote is over, surprise surprise, there really are problems with police and fire staffing, funding, equipment, etc.....Just like was originally stated by the police officers and firefighters, and then covered up by people like yourself who wanted the big toy in the window reguardless of the consequences. Greed? Really? Sounds like they had their heads and hearts in the right place for the citizens to me. COngratulations on your new park, convention center, underfunded police and fire departments, unsafe rescue equipment for the rest of the city, etc...... Way to see the big picture.

[Midtowner]

According to F&P and pretty much everyone except maybe the U.S. Military, they are all underpaid, understaffed, underfunded and under-equipped. If we were able to write a blank check addressing all of their needs and wants, they'd still want more. That's human nature.

We make due with what we are given and should leave it at that. F&P do a serviceable job in this town.

To the city budget, whether it's raises or new employees isn't something that amounts to much. In the end, it's an issue of money which either exists or doesn't.

F&P wanted to raid a tax that has historically been used for capital improvements for their own purposes when they have their own tax completely dedicated to them. If that's not enough, then address your own tax, but leave other facets of the city alone.

As for city employees being laid off, that's always tragic. That said, the city exists to best serve the citizens. The citizens do not exist to serve the municipal employees. Those folks would have lost their jobs with or without MAPS. MAPS only secures the future.

You can't possibly make the argument that this city is a worse place to live because of MAPS I or MAPS For Kids. I have every confidence that you'll have the same inability to say anything about MAPS 3 once those projects are completed. My main point is that if the unions aren't going to support MAPS because it's the right thing to do, then perhaps it's time for the Council to consider whether or not to give those unions a better reason to support our future the next go-round.

[OKCGUY3]

Stop ranting, take a breath, re-read my post. My argument isn't if this city is in a better or worse place because of any maps vote. My post is simply about your belief that the police officers and firefighters were against maps3 for greed. Their message was that the city has other problems that need addressed. The rhetoric was then made out that the police officers and firefighters wanted a raise and all is well in OKC. And now the facts come out that the police officers and firefighters werent asking for a raise, they were pointing out what the city, it seems, was hiding from the citizens. And breathe....

[Wambo36]

We make due with what we are given and should leave it at that.

Yes, but we all don't have the family law practice to fall back on so we advocate for our employment and benefits in more conventional ways. I really don't expect you to understand.

My main point is that if the unions aren't going to support MAPS because it's the right thing to do, then perhaps it's time for the Council to consider whether or not to give those unions a better reason to support our future the next go-round.

So you think that since they dared to have a different opinion than the city that the city should rain hell fire down on them until they cower in submission. Good luck with that considering that almost every time they get in a courtroom together the city gets their ass handed to them for their questionable practices and accounting.

[Midtowner]

Yes, but we all don't have the family law practice to fall back on so we advocate for our employment and benefits in more conventional ways. I really don't expect you to understand.

I expect you to advocate your own self-interest. Just expect me to advocate against you when I think our interests are opposed. Nothing wrong with that either, right?

So you think that since they dared to have a different opinion than the city that the city should rain hell fire down on them until they cower in submission. Good luck with that considering that almost every time they get in a courtroom together the city gets their ass handed to them for their questionable practices and accounting.

Should P&F be 'punished'? Difficult to say if that's the best plan of attack. Just sending a message that the city's interest and the unions' interests are one and the same is enough for me.

[Wambo36]

Should P&F be 'punished'? Difficult to say if that's the best plan of attack. Just sending a message that the city's interest and the unions' interests are one and the same is enough for me.

How is it difficult to say? Isn't that what you've been advocating in your last several posts. That the city should do something to make them think twice before they ever stray from the company line again. Like I said, good luck with that.
As far as the city's and union interests being the same, they should be, but they're not always. The city would like to get the job done for as little as possible. The union would like their members to earn a decent living. Those two things don't always go hand in hand.

[LordGerald]

Well, you got me now. We did not support Maps3!!!!!

Instead, we said lets wait a year and make sure we get through the tough time that is coming. Let's take care of our needs before we take care of the wants. Would one year or maybe two have made a real difference on the park, trails, whitewater rafting center or convention center? I say no it would not have. Mr. Cornett said we have to do this now, it will never be possible to do maps3 if we dont do it now.

Well you have hope, whoopee! Maybe you can bottle that and send it to the 400 or so city employees that are being looked at for termination. I am sure they would sleep better.

And by the way, the use tax ploy was a political tactic used by the city to buy support. We rejected it because it was wrong.

That's not at all how I recall you and your breathren's argument. Fact: The fire union was demanding a one percent raise. This would have cost the city over $1 million. You held MAPS 3 hostage while your dispute went to arbitration.

Don't couch your argument by saying that you and the firefighter heroes wanted to wait a year for the economy to get better. After all, you weren't willing to wait a year for your economy to get better, and that's why you were holding out for your dear one percent.

You did this well into the budget year knowing that receipts were down and your fellow non-fire city personnel were already asked to start the process of projecting budget cuts. The union's opposition to MAPS 3 was nothing but self-serving. You guys underestimated your hero status and standing.

[Midtowner]

How is it difficult to say? Isn't that what you've been advocating in your last several posts. That the city should do something to make them think twice before they ever stray from the company line again. Like I said, good luck with that.

Thanks. You serve the city, not the other way around. Remember.

[Wambo36]

That's not at all how I recall you and your breathren's argument. Fact: The fire union was demanding a one percent raise. This would have cost the city over $1 million. You held MAPS 3 hostage while your dispute went to arbitration.

Fact: It's already been through arbitration and the union won. The raise was a settled issue before the MAPS election. The only people who used it then, and continue to do so now, were trying to detract from the P&F argument. It's a red herring.

[Wambo36]

Thanks. You serve the city, not the other way around. Remember.

So mindless lock step with the city would make you feel better? Sorry, no can do.

[Midtowner]

So mindless lock step with the city would make you feel better? Sorry, no can do.

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

[Mikemarsh51]

Oh LordGerald, you are truly a jewel. Quite interesting how you have things twisted.

We, never demanded a raise. After 8 months of failed negotiations our dispute went to arbitration. Do you understand how that works? Each side makes a "last best offer" and the arbitraitor makes a decision. Now since the city made an illegal LBO, the arbitraitor sided with us. He decided on the 1% based on the cities ability to pay. Explain to me how we held anyone hostage in that situation. Oh lets see about when we offered the raise in exchange for more manpower, the city refused that. We suck I agree.

I see in one of your posts you live in ward 3, we may get to meet since I work in ward 3.
I look forward to that, you'll be the one wearing the crown right?

[Wambo36]

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

So how will we know the difference? You pretty much summed up the way things have been forever. We gave up our raises voluntarily to help them through the rough patch after the bombing, and they return the favor by lobbying the legislature to take away some of our retirement benefits. That's the way they've always done it. Like I said, we're talking about a history of actions, some of which occured while you were apparently still in grade school. Unfortunatley, the city has no idea how to deal with employees on an honest level and apparently neither do you.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

Midtowner,

I would probably take you serious on some of your views if you werent a kid that is still wet behind the ears. I tell you what, why dont you go get some life and/or work experience in the real world for about 20 years or so, then come back and we will have some discussion on what you feel is appropriate behavior for firefighters and police officers. We may actually take you seriously if you have any facts to back up your arguments and not a bunch of heresay. Until then, dont try to dispute something that you obviously have no clue about, it only makes you look ignorant.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

As far as the attitude goes, firefighters and police officers have an excellent attitude towards their jobs and the public well being.

It is the attitude toward the employer that we have the problem with. We are not going to back off of these guys one damn bit. They have been running our depts in the ground for way too long, by mismanaging and/or misappropriating funds, reducing staffing to unsafe levels and not replacing equipment in a timely fashion.

The line has been drawn in the sand, not by our unions, but by the membership of the firefighters and police officers. We are way past being tired and sick to death of the way we are discounted by the city manager and council. We are not going away on these issues. If it is a fight that they want, it is a fight that they will damn well get...............

If standing up for our jobs and safety as well as the safety of our citizens is viewed as having a poor attitude, then so be it. You couldnt be more wrong.