Lindsey Street

[Plutonic Panda]

That is the thing though - if we used the more efficient traffic circle we wouldn't need 6 lane roads.

So you're telling me, that if Preston Rd. in Dallas were reduced to 4 lanes and replaced the intersections with round-a-bouts it would solve traffic there? I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it.

I think what you're getting at would work in a lot of different scenarios, Lindsey being one of them, but there are cases where I just don't think it would work out that well.

[ou48A]

So you're telling me, that if Preston Rd. in Dallas were reduced to 4 lanes and replaced the intersections with round-a-bouts it would solve traffic there? I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it.

I think what you're getting at would work in a lot of different scenarios, Lindsey being one of them, but there are cases where I just don't think it would work out that well.

A very good observation^

Much of the new development along Preston Road wouldn’t even be there without it having the traffic capacity that it does.

If we want nice things we have got to have the will to provide the circumstances and environment for them to be built.
Preston Road does that by providing 6 lanes of traffic with good intersections and turning lanes. Traffic moves along at a good pace for a major city street. But most major Dallas streets have been built similarly for many decades. Many citys in Texas now build this way.
Designing streets like they have has helped the quality of growth as can be seen by the higher incomes in many areas of north Dallas and other locations. It a classic example of how nice things are often attracted to other nice things.

In some places where they have gone back and rebuilt old out of date streets it has helped spur the redevelopment of very old neighborhoods closer to down town.

You can't replace what good modern streets built to modern day standards can do to a community, even in old areas, by any other means.

[Just the facts]

I'm not familiar with Preston Rd in Dallas. I assume there are traffic lights there now. How is traffic? How do you think it would flow with an intersection design the can move 4X to 5X as many cars in the same time period? Of course, as with the videos posted above, some stop light down the street would eventually back traffic up through the roundabout - and why you might ask - because traffic can flow faster through the roundabout than it can through the street light.

[venture]

I'm not familiar with Preston Rd in Dallas. I assume there are traffic lights there now. How is traffic? How do you think it would flow with an intersection design the can move 4X to 5X as many cars in the same time period? Of course, as with the videos posted above, some stop light down the street would eventually back traffic up through the roundabout - and why you might ask - because traffic can flow faster through the roundabout than it can through the street light.

Ding ding ding. I think we'll find that if/when the Lindsey plan is fully in place and built, with the roundabout options at the selected intersections, we'll see the back ups occur at 24th, McGee, and Pickard where the lights are. Of course if we see OU follow through and do a roundabout at Jenkins, and better timed lights at the crosswalks we would probably find eastbound Lindsey will flow very smoothly and westbound will be good until you hit McGee and start backing up.

[Plutonic Panda]

A very good observation^

Much of the new development along Preston Road wouldn’t even be there without it having the traffic capacity that it does.

If we want nice things we have got to have the will to provide the circumstances and environment for them to be built.
Preston Road does that by providing 6 lanes of traffic with good intersections and turning lanes. Traffic moves along at a good pace for a major city street. But most major Dallas streets have been built similarly for many decades. Many citys in Texas now build this way.
Designing streets like they have has helped the quality of growth as can be seen by the higher incomes in many areas of north Dallas and other locations. It a classic example of how nice things are often attracted to other nice things.

In some places where they have gone back and rebuilt old out of date streets it has helped spur the redevelopment of very old neighborhoods closer to down town.

You can't replace what good modern streets built to modern day standards can do to a community, even in old areas, by any other means.

I agree completely. OKC really needs to beautify itself(esp. along its highways) and tackle a bunch of its streets. There are tons of streets I would like to see widened to six lanes and follow the model that Dallas builds from. Everything I've seen, Dallas is extremely successful and has a ton of badass developments along Preston and along the North Dallas Tollway(which is one of the coolest highways I've ever seen). That area is so freakin nice is not even funny, and some of these amazing office parks they have I would kill for to have here.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not familiar with Preston Rd in Dallas. I assume there are traffic lights there now. How is traffic? How do you think it would flow with an intersection design the can move 4X to 5X as many cars in the same time period? Of course, as with the videos posted above, some stop light down the street would eventually back traffic up through the roundabout - and why you might ask - because traffic can flow faster through the roundabout than it can through the street light.

There is a ton of traffic, and it moves very smoothly for the amount of traffic it has. That road you posted a picture of in Jacksonville, think that kind of traffic, flowing almost flawlessly. Preston is a great model, it is 6 lanes, has two dedicated left turn lanes on EVERY major intersection and dedicated right turn lanes, even into commercial developments. I'm telling you right now, there is no way a round-a-bout would work in that area. It would be a freakin mess to have round-a-bouts there.

One thing I love about Dallas is its road and highway network. It is amazing, almost the entire city is served by 6 lane roads and it has worked very VERY well for them. Obviously, OKC can't and doesn't have a need to widen all of its roads to six lanes, but like I said, there about 5-10 of them I would think should be widened, and I'm sure they will in time. I have nothing against round-a-bouts and I even would like to see one at the new Boulevard that is to built downtown, but I just don't think they are the god of transferring traffic.

BTW, next time I'm there, I'll take a video when I'm driving through Preston so you can see what exactly it is and all the awesome stores people here are saying they want, like Tom Thumb, Kroger, Stonebriar ect.

[ou48A]

I agree completely. OKC really needs to beautify itself(esp. along its highways) and tackle a bunch of its streets. There are tons of streets I would like to see widened to six lanes and follow the model that Dallas builds from. Everything I've seen, Dallas is extremely successful and has a ton of badass developments along Preston and along the North Dallas Tollway(which is one of the coolest highways I've ever seen). That area is so freakin nice is not even funny, and some of these amazing office parks they have I would kill for to have here.

I have spent a lot of time in the Dallas area over the years and known several people who were great sources of information on the growth of the Dallas metro. As a result I have tried looking at what they have done to create a higher standard of living for them self’s.

They have done a great job of creating the environment need to create success for the individual and for corporations. Its their creation of wealth that lets them do what they have done. It a matrix of issues but no state income tax has a huge philological impact well beyond its direct impact. Their huge streets save time and make their area more productive and a more desirable place to live and do business. Until recent years they had great leaders who were bold enough to not be afraid of criticism from activist.

When we take 35 years to rebuild I-35 from I-40 to Norman and they take about 6 years to rebuild a far more extensive stretch of LBJ it's an example of stark differences in attitudes about how things should be done.
Prosperity = nice.

Sometimes we just are not nearly bold enough in our thinking.

[ou48A]

There is a ton of traffic, and it moves very smoothly for the amount of traffic it has. That road you posted a picture of in Jacksonville, think that kind of traffic, flowing almost flawlessly. Preston is a great model, it is 6 lanes, has two dedicated left turn lanes on EVERY major intersection and dedicated right turn lanes, even into commercial developments. I'm telling you right now, there is no way a round-a-bout would work in that area. It would be a freakin mess to have round-a-bouts there.

One thing I love about Dallas is its road and highway network. It is amazing, almost the entire city is served by 6 lane roads and it has worked very VERY well for them. Obviously, OKC can't and doesn't have a need to widen all of its roads to six lanes, but like I said, there about 5-10 of them I would think should be widened, and I'm sure they will in time. I have nothing against round-a-bouts and I even would like to see one at the new Boulevard that is to built downtown, but I just don't think they are the god of transferring traffic.

BTW, next time I'm there, I'll take a video when I'm driving through Preston so you can see what exactly it is and all the awesome stores people here are saying they want, like Tom Thumb, Kroger, Stonebriar ect.

Very good post^

When people say they want all these great stores there are very good reasons why some of them either are not here or are slow to come to our area. In many cases it's because other places have created better places for them to go.
Most of the time is about how much disposable income the population has. Doing the things that create higher income jobs will be necessary. Time saving transportation is critical to prosperity.

[venture]

I agree completely. OKC really needs to beautify itself(esp. along its highways) and tackle a bunch of its streets. There are tons of streets I would like to see widened to six lanes and follow the model that Dallas builds from. Everything I've seen, Dallas is extremely successful and has a ton of badass developments along Preston and along the North Dallas Tollway(which is one of the coolest highways I've ever seen). That area is so freakin nice is not even funny, and some of these amazing office parks they have I would kill for to have here.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to use the money and invest in mass transit before we could expanding every road to 6 lanes? We really need to stay realistic here. OKC and also Norman (since this is the Norman section of the forum) are not Dallas and never will be Dallas. Adding more lanes typically just means more traffic to get more congested overtime...it doesn't solve the problem. We need to have a balanced approach.

No one is saying a roundabout is the solution to every issue, but in quite a few cases it makes much more sense. It also allows the roadway to have a better look to it. You are talking about beautifying roads and highways. Adding more lanes of pavement isn't going to do it.

One thing I love about Dallas is its road and highway network. It is amazing, almost the entire city is served by 6 lane roads and it has worked very VERY well for them. Obviously, OKC can't and doesn't have a need to widen all of its roads to six lanes, but like I said, there about 5-10 of them I would think should be widened, and I'm sure they will in time. I have nothing against round-a-bouts and I even would like to see one at the new Boulevard that is to built downtown, but I just don't think they are the god of transferring traffic.

BTW, next time I'm there, I'll take a video when I'm driving through Preston so you can see what exactly it is and all the awesome stores people here are saying they want, like Tom Thumb, Kroger, Stonebriar ect.

Honestly I think the OKC area's road network is pretty well setup as well. Perfect grid in most locations and easy highway access. Can't really complain. Of course, no need to discuss OKC's specific road widening objects because this the Norman section and should be focused as such.

A lot of this anti-roundabout discussion just seems to continue to stem from people that are use to the way it always has been done and have little experience with them in a full scale deployment. Nothing wrong with that. I just think for Lindsey specifically ( getting back on topic) we have the opportunity to build a new gateway into the heart of the city. The visual impact of a tree lined street, with trees in the median, and 3 roundabouts with unique, locally influenced sculptures with various lighting elements would be amazing. A typical wide slab of pavement with your typical layout will do nothing to setup Norman about from the OKC suburbs to our North.

[venture]

Sometimes we just are not nearly bold enough in our thinking.

Indeed...which is why people so set in their ways wanting 5-7 lanes of pavement to create an evening bigger concrete divide through parts of town need to pushed out - much like what happened in the last council election.

[QUOTE=ou48A;677873 Time saving transportation is critical to prosperity.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you agree that we definitely need to try everything we can to remove traffic lights to ensure constant flows of traffic and reduce traffic delays.

[Just the facts]

Didn't we just learn about 2 months ago that Texas transportation funding is about to collapse under its debt? Not only will they not be able to build new roads, they won't be able to maintain what they just built. Anyone can appear to live high on the hog when they are borrowing money to pay for it, but when the credit runs out.... then what? They had to transfer $1.2 billion from the states rainy day fund just to make ends meet this year. I prefer to build smarter - not harder.

I don't want to derail this thread so this will be my last Texas post on the subject.

http://www.kxan.com/news/community-e...ding-necessity

Experts say Texas needs to spend $4 billion more per year just to maintain the current road network, but the Republican majority has refused to raise taxes or fees to pay for them. Diverting money from the state's savings account was considered the more politically acceptable option.

Business groups warned earlier Monday that the Texas economy would suffer if the Legislature didn't do something to improve the state's deteriorating infrastructure.

[ou48A]

Didn't we just learn about 2 months ago that Texas transportation funding is about to collapse under its debt? Not only will they not be able to build new roads, they won't be able to maintain what they just built. Anyone can appear to live high on the hog when they are borrowing money to pay for it, but when the credit runs out.... then what? They had to transfer $1.2 billion from the states rainy day fund just to make ends meet this year. I prefer to build smarter - not harder.

I don't want to derail this thread so this will be my last Texas post on the subject.

KXAN - Texas Legislature debates road funding | KXAN.com

Those concerns are way over blown and are being used for political posturing... the reality is.....





“Texas is the best credit in the U.S.,”

Texas has a top credit rating from Moody’s Investors Service.
Texas also has about $11.8 billion in its reserves and its growing.

Texas Energy Boom Fuels Best Performance Since ?09: Muni Credit - Bloomberg

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm confused by this statement. Every single time, without fail, that I go into Dallas, I regret it so much. The traffic there is horrendous. Perhaps I should get off the highways more to see what you mean?

The traffic is really bad during rush hour, other than that, it is generally pretty mild, esp. for a metro of 7 million people. On average, Austin has much worse traffic than Dallas, imo. There are a few places where they are doing construction and it backs up, but the same thing happens here.

Just FYI, Dallas does have some pretty good urban neighborhoods, Sid. If you want, I can P.M. you some great urban projects and some urban neighborhoods that are pretty cool, Dallas isn't all about it suburbs.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have spent a lot of time in the Dallas area over the years and known several people who were great sources of information on the growth of the Dallas metro. As a result I have tried looking at what they have done to create a higher standard of living for them self’s.

They have done a great job of creating the environment need to create success for the individual and for corporations. Its their creation of wealth that lets them do what they have done. It a matrix of issues but no state income tax has a huge philological impact well beyond its direct impact. Their huge streets save time and make their area more productive and a more desirable place to live and do business. Until recent years they had great leaders who were bold enough to not be afraid of criticism from activist.

When we take 35 years to rebuild I-35 from I-40 to Norman and they take about 6 years to rebuild a far more extensive stretch of LBJ it's an example of stark differences in attitudes about how things should be done.
Prosperity = nice.

Sometimes we just are not nearly bold enough in our thinking.

Nailed it! I think we can setup a system where we can borrow money to build new highways and expansions like Texas and pay it back being responsible about it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to use the money and invest in mass transit before we could expanding every road to 6 lanes? We really need to stay realistic here. OKC and also Norman (since this is the Norman section of the forum) are not Dallas and never will be Dallas. Adding more lanes typically just means more traffic to get more congested overtime...it doesn't solve the problem. We need to have a balanced approach

Yes, I do think a balanced approach is needed, and I'm not trying to say its and urgent matter widening the roads here six lanes. I would love to see a functioning bus system and a light-rail at that. I'm sure OKC and Norman(as well as Edmond) can manage to approach this with reason and balance.

No one is saying a roundabout is the solution to every issue, but in quite a few cases it makes much more sense. It also allows the roadway to have a better look to it. You are talking about beautifying roads and highways. Adding more lanes of pavement isn't going to do it.

Well, I really can't say much more and shouldn't have really said much to begin with, as I don't know this area and its traffic that well, other than what I've read on here.

Honestly I think the OKC area's road network is pretty well setup as well. Perfect grid in most locations and easy highway access. Can't really complain. Of course, no need to discuss OKC's specific road widening objects because this the Norman section and should be focused as such.

A lot of this anti-roundabout discussion just seems to continue to stem from people that are use to the way it always has been done and have little experience with them in a full scale deployment. Nothing wrong with that. I just think for Lindsey specifically ( getting back on topic) we have the opportunity to build a new gateway into the heart of the city. The visual impact of a tree lined street, with trees in the median, and 3 roundabouts with unique, locally influenced sculptures with various lighting elements would be amazing. A typical wide slab of pavement with your typical layout will do nothing to setup Norman about from the OKC suburbs to our North.

I understand the grid system works the best, however, I like the curved roads similar to Dallas and L.A.. I think they are more "scenic". OKC's roads would be much better if they added center turn medians, landscaping, dedicated turn lanes and sidewalks.

[Mr T]

Councilperson Holman posted on Facebook that there is a video. I don't remember how to link stuff (old lady here) but it is on Youtube and is called "Dan Burden: Livable Lindsey Street." If it has already been posted, sorry! I didn't want to go back through all the Dallas (?) stuff.

[venture]

Here you go:

[venture]

One thing I find very interesting in the video is just how well the roundabouts will fit in the existing right of ways. The problem arrives when certain city planners are pushing to have 4 lanes through every intersection when based on the details in the article - they aren't needed. A single land roundabout can handle over 20,000 cars per day with little in the way of back ups as long as there is a string of roundabouts throughout the road. As soon as a traffic light gets in there then it can all be screwed up.

[ou48A]

One thing I find very interesting in the video is just how well the roundabouts will fit in the existing right of ways. The problem arrives when certain city planners are pushing to have 4 lanes through every intersection when based on the details in the article - they aren't needed. A single land roundabout can handle over 20,000 cars per day with little in the way of back ups as long as there is a string of roundabouts throughout the road. As soon as a traffic light gets in there then it can all be screwed up.

City engineers and others know that a single lane does not fit the needs on Lindsey Street on game day making single roundabouts unpractical given all the necessary consideration involved. If there were no game days or other large events a single lane with roundabouts would be manageable, but that’s not the case.

[Just the facts]

How is I-35 on game day?

[HangryHippo]

City engineers and others know that a single lane does not fit the needs on Lindsey Street on game day making single roundabouts unpractical given all the necessary consideration involved. If there were no game days or other large events a single lane with roundabouts would be manageable, but that’s not the case.

I don't understand why an event that takes place roughly 6-7 times per year should be the overriding concern...

[soonerguru]

Why are people so fixated on game day? It's ridiculous. Traffic is going to be congested -- six days a year. It makes little sense to plan based on events that happen six days a year. I'm guessing OU48a must live on the West side of town?

There are other ways to get into Norman on Game Day, up to and including spending the night and staying an extra day, patronizing Norman businesses and hotels. Also, not everyone arrives at the same time on Game Day, so it's really not that big a deal.

It should have zero influence on the Lindsey Street discussion.

[Geographer]

Why are people so fixated on game day? It's ridiculous. Traffic is going to be congested -- six days a year. It makes little sense to plan based on events that happen six days a year. I'm guessing OU48a must live on the West side of town?

There are other ways to get into Norman on Game Day, up to and including spending the night and staying an extra day, patronizing Norman businesses and hotels. Also, not everyone arrives at the same time on Game Day, so it's really not that big a deal.

It should have zero influence on the Lindsey Street discussion.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[Just the facts]

Why are people so fixated on game day? It's ridiculous.

Because when you are trying to defend the status quo you have to go to the data extremes to do it. I-35 backs up on game day; you don't seriously think ou48A is suggesting that Lindsey Street should be able to handle more traffic than I-35 do you?

[ou48A]

Why are people so fixated on game day? It's ridiculous. Traffic is going to be congested -- six days a year. It makes little sense to plan based on events that happen six days a year. I'm guessing OU48a must live on the West side of town?

There are other ways to get into Norman on Game Day, up to and including spending the night and staying an extra day, patronizing Norman businesses and hotels. Also, not everyone arrives at the same time on Game Day, so it's really not that big a deal.

It should have zero influence on the Lindsey Street discussion.

Football traffic and its congestion absolutely does have a place in the discussions as can be seen when the topic has been discussed by various OU, City, state and federal officials many times in various official settings over the years....

These people know there are very real and very valid reasons why its an important topic.

From strictly a safety and security stand point game day congestion is something that is taken extremely seriously, just as it should be by appropriate officials. In the event of a large emergency Lindsey street is one of the most important streets for emergency traffic and for possible evacuations.

A one lane Lindsey street that I was responding to doesn’t even come close to adequately meeting the desired outcome....In fact its ridiculous to think that a one lane road fits our future needs..A one lane road with roundabouts would significantly slow emergency services and slow normal traffic.
When it comes to emergency services, peoples lives and property will have a much higher priority than anything else, just as they should. But if for no other reason than Norman’s future growth, on this, the city got this one right! It's now time to start plans on building to Elm street for many of the same reasons as above.

PS: in the 42 years that I have been attending OU football games mostly from 100+ miles out of town just getting in and out of town has become far more time consuming... But I have rarely used Lindsey on game-day. I snake around on mostly residential streets. For the many hundreds of millions that have been brought into Norman because of football over the years its well worth not taking this for granted.

When its going to make every day life in Norman better a few additional million to make the trip a little better for our visitors is a nice friendly investment that leaves a better lasting impression on the day when the most people from out of town are in our community.