TIF Districts

[stjohn]

Things like this should spur a discussion on TIF approval being granted at the ballot box. The sums of money being spent are to great without direct voter approval.

Or stipulations attached to the money. As far as the private events go, sure, that income is great for the operator and all, but small, private events are absolutely not the reason they received public dollars.

[Urbanized]

...small, private events are absolutely not the reason they received public dollars.

You're 100% right. They received public dollars because the numbers didn't work for the original design they pitched - which would not pass Bricktown Urban Design - and the City suggested TIF as a way to close the gap and make it a building that met the City's design ordinance. TIF funding had absolutely zero to do with how many or what type of shows would be booked into the venue.

[stjohn]

You're 100% right. They received public dollars because the numbers didn't work for the original design they pitched - which would not pass Bricktown Urban Design - and the City suggested TIF as a way to close the gap and make it a building that met the City's design ordinance. TIF funding had absolutely zero to do with how many or what type of shows would be booked into the venue.

Source? That's not my understanding of TIF at all. If that's right, that's a horrible use of TIF, which creates all kinds of opportunities for this kind of abuse.

[Pete]

You're 100% right. They received public dollars because the numbers didn't work for the original design they pitched - which would not pass Bricktown Urban Design - and the City suggested TIF as a way to close the gap and make it a building that met the City's design ordinance. TIF funding had absolutely zero to do with how many or what type of shows would be booked into the venue.

And IMO set a very, very dangerous precedent.

The idea that the City is now going to pay developers to build something correctly and that fits within our guidelines and desires is just a bad idea.

All anyone has to do is come up with a cheapo design then claim they can't afford to do it right. No matter that there is nearly an identical facility almost directly next door that never needed a dime of public money.

We just need to stop with this altogether except for very rare circumstances like First National or the Skrivin. We keep jacking with the free market to the point it has become completely bastardized.

BTW, pretty amazing that pretty much every single developer comes to the City with a 5-9% gap, which happens to be the exact range of virtually every TIF award. Simple truth is they know the game, know how to write their pro formas and know what they can get. And if that wasn't obvious enough, that has been told to me by more than one developer.

[Jersey Boss]

This is NOT to make a case for or against TIF in concept, but...

There is a reason why our form of government is not direct democracy but rather a representative democracy.

Well acquainted with the way a democracy versus a representative democracy works. However when Cathy O'Conner is pitching the TIF behind closed doors and it is "approved" before a formal vote, a meaningful discussion with citizen input then is just a moot point. That is not the way a representative democracy works. That is closer to the way a plutocracy operates. An intiative petition and a succesful vote could very easily take TIF approval out of the hands of those who are circumventing open meetings and put it in voters hands.

[Urbanized]

Source? That's not my understanding of TIF at all. If that's right, that's a horrible use of TIF, which creates all kinds of opportunities for this kind of abuse.

http://newsok.com/article/5371940

[Urbanized]

Well acquainted with the way a democracy versus a representative democracy works. However when Cathy O'Conner is pitching the TIF behind closed doors and it is "approved" before a formal vote, a meaningful discussion with citizen input then is just a moot point. That is not the way a representative democracy works. That is closer to the way a plutocracy operates. An intiative petition and a succesful vote could very easily take TIF approval out of the hands of those who are circumventing open meetings and put it in voters hands.

City officials negotiate deals with third party companies all of the time before it is brought to City Council for formal approval. I listed in my post a few of several thousands of negotiations that happen on your behalf every year, assuming you are an OKC resident. Every Tuesday you are likely to see a contract approved that was previously negotiated by City staff or on the City's behalf by one of their partners with City staff input, before being put to Council. It is the way cities all over America work, by the way.

Again, if you want TIF (or other incentives) negotiated in the open, you are welcome to advocate this change with your elected officials. There are of course many reasons why that would be a terrible idea and put the City at an extreme disadvantage in all sorts of negotiations.

It is totally fair to question whether or not TIF is good policy for a city. That is open to debate. Also it is fair to look at refining how TIF is used, and such analysis should always be in the minds of public officials too. But there is nothing about the way OKC uses TIF that is especially unusual or violates any laws, ethics or standards as accepted in municipal governance nationally.

[Urbanized]

By the way this discussion is seriously off-topic.

[Roger S]

By the way this discussion is seriously off-topic.

Was about to make the same point.

[stjohn]

http://newsok.com/article/5371940

Yeah, that's a horrible use of TIF.

[Pete]

By the way this discussion is seriously off-topic.

This is the debate equivalent of starting a personal argument then saying "I don't want to talk about it".

I'll move some of this to the TIF thread because that Newsok article you posted is almost championing that TIF be used in this way (a horrible idea IMO) and the writer uses a definition of TIF that is completely and totally incorrect.

I restate: TIF (like most dedicated economic development dollars) is money that goes looking for a problem.

[Urbanized]

This is the debate equivalent of starting a personal argument then saying "I don't want to talk about it".
...

Haha, well, I'll cop to participating but will point out that Jersey Boss started it!

[Pete]

Petition drive seeks to overturn Stillwater TIF District:

http://www.stwnewspress.com/news/upd...e7c29cb57.html

[Pete]

Looks like Norman is ending the huge TIF for University North Park.

Anticipates the city will getting an extra $4.8 million per year as a result.

https://journalrecord.com/2019/03/27...o-end-unp-tif/

[DoctorTaco]

Maybe this belongs in the other thread, but which TIF is the "Thunder Alley" TIF request targeting? There are just so many TIF districts to keep track of.

[Jersey Boss]

Looks like Norman is ending the huge TIF for University North Park.

Anticipates the city will getting an extra $4.8 million per year as a result.

https://journalrecord.com/2019/03/27...o-end-unp-tif/

My belief from living here is that the majority of citizens wanted TIF to just go away. UNP did not turn out the way the early supporters portrayed it using this funding mechanism.

[DoctorTaco]

Pete, it feels like the Downtown TIF hasn't spit out any money towards any projects for a while. Shouldn't it be in its greatest period of earnings right now towards the end of its lifesepan?

[Pete]

Pete, it feels like the Downtown TIF hasn't spit out any money towards any projects for a while. Shouldn't it be in its greatest period of earnings right now towards the end of its lifesepan?

A lot was moved around and taken for the Omni and related garage.

[DoctorTaco]

A lot was moved around and taken for the Omni and related garage.

ah thanks.

[Pete]

On other threads, there were questions about the total amount that OKC has spent on TIF thus far.

As of 6/30/22, that number is $1,149,336,498.

On top of that are several big awards that have been obligated but not paid, such as the $120,000,000 for the first phase of OKANA; not to mention there will almost certainly be similar sums for Phases II & III.

Wheeler District will get at least $120,000,000 in TIF which is yet to be paid.

And very recently, other awards have been given such as $3,888,000 for the Eastpoint Hotel and $2,700,000 for Channel 9's new studio in the Century Center. There are millions more that are obligated (as in approved by city council, which is the last step) but not yet paid out.

[BoulderSooner]

On other threads, there were questions about the total amount that OKC has spent on TIF thus far.

As of 6/30/22, that number is $1,149,336,498.

On top of that are several big awards that have been obligated but not paid, such as the $120,000,000 for the first phase of OKANA; not to mention there will almost certainly be similar sums for Phases II & III.

And very recently, other awards have been given such as $3,888,000 for the Eastpoint Hotel and $2,700,000 for Channel 9's new studio in the Century Center. There are millions more that are obligated (as in approved by city council, which is the last step) but not yet paid out.

over what about of time??

[Teo9969]

over what about of time??

The largest TIFs started in 2000 (CBD) and 2008 (Devon). Realistically, the majority of the TIF that has been spent was in the 2010s.

[Pete]

An article in the Oklahoman today stated that Cathy O'Connor is serving as a consultant on the Strawberry Fields project and helping to negotiate their TIF awards, including the one in the process of being approved for $16 million in infrastructure improvements.

I believe O'Connor is serving in the same capacity for OKANA which just received a $120 million TIF award; you can bet she's involved in other projects seeking public funds. And OKANA and Strawberry Fields are just getting started and you can be sure much more TIF is still to come.


So, she runs the entire TIF program for years, then flips to being a consultant to maximize the TIF grants to her paying clients.

[BoulderSooner]

An article in the Oklahoman today stated that Cathy O'Connor is serving as a consultant on the Strawberry Fields project and helping to negotiate their TIF awards, including the one in the process of being approved for $16 million in infrastructure improvements.

I believe O'Connor is serving in the same capacity for OKANA which just received a $120 million TIF award; you can bet she's involved in other projects seeking public funds. And OKANA and Strawberry Fields are just getting started and you can be sure much more TIF is still to come.


So, she runs the entire TIF program for years, then flips to being a consultant to maximize the TIF grants to her paying clients.

unfortunately that is pretty par for the course across all Gov ...

[David]

Conflicts of interest aside, Cathy O'Connor working for the Strawberry Fields people give me the first hope that the Strawberry Fields people might actually build something someday.