Bricktown

[HOT ROD]

I think he was referring mostly to Old Town's build form (urban streetfronts). I can agree that Bricktown can't hold a candle.

But Bricktown is very much larger and offers far more.

[dankrutka]

I think he was referring mostly to Old Town's build form (urban streetfronts). I can agree that Bricktown can't hold a candle.

But Bricktown is very much larger and offers far more.

First, the area in the picture wasn't really in the main part of Old Town. It was just west of the main district close to the CBD. Most of Old Town doesn't look like that.

Second, I'm not really sure that's true. If I had up guess I'd say Oldtown has more restaurants/bars. And I'd argue they are higher quality overall (especially the places by the Oldtown Warren Theatre). But I haven't actually counted.

[LandRunOkie]

Over $40 million of tax money has been pumped into Bricktown since MAPS passed. It is a breach of the spirit of the measure to allow a future proposed main garage for the district to be controlled privately. Eminent domain should be used to build a public garage. Who is accountable for this proposal?

[Rover]

First, the area in the picture wasn't really in the main part of Old Town. It was just west of the main district close to the CBD. Most of Old Town doesn't look like that.

Second, I'm not really sure that's true. If I had up guess I'd say Oldtown has more restaurants/bars. And I'd argue they are higher quality overall (especially the places by the Oldtown Warren Theatre). But I haven't actually counted.

Actually, the theater and a good many shops overlook a quite large surface parking lot. Surface parking is scattered all over OLd Town. Not dissin it.....just saying

[Rover]

Over $40 million of tax money has been pumped into Bricktown since MAPS passed. It is a breach of the spirit of the measure to allow a future proposed main garage for the district to be controlled privately. Eminent domain should be used to build a public garage. Who is accountable for this proposal?

Public money is and should be properly spent to incite PRIVATE spending, not to perpetuate government ownership and continued control. This is not a communist state. The city should provide proper infrastructure which is difficult or unduly risky for private entities to do, and to provide short term stimulus.

[UnFrSaKn]

[LandRunOkie]

A publicly funded garage would be able to provide a much better stimulus than a private one. Offering cheaper parking for residents would create a greater demand for housing. The best urban districts are mixed-use and and the hardest use to fill is residential. A publicly controlled garage would inevitably lead to more residential if they give pricing preference to residents.

[Urbanized]

Geez, dude. A privately-funded garage IN NO WAY precludes the construction of a publicly-funded one. The public dollars are still available for other structured parking, and the City intends to use them for such. You're going to tell me that anytime a private developer announces a parking garage for property he owns or controls in Bricktown that the City should go the eminent domain route and throw new public money at it instead? You're way off base here.

RE Old Town: in many ways what happened there was even more impressive than what happened in Bricktown. The city of Wichita is less than half the size of OKC. The public investment in Old Town was mostly limited to (really well-done) brick streets and sidewalks throughout and also the acquisition of parking lots (parking, while not always convenient, is generally free). The Intrust Arena - which is walkable to Old Town but somewhat less convenient than Chesapeake is to Bricktown - was built well after development peaked in the district. The convention center is on the opposite side of downtown, with minimal impact on the district. Ditto for the ballpark.

But Old Town, which started picking up momentum in the early nineties much like Bricktown, had significant development much earlier in critical areas than did its OKC counterpart. They have had significant loft housing for more than a decade, and they have TONS of housing, comparitively. They had two hotels before Bricktown had one; both of them wonderful adaptive re-use of historic buildings. One (the Courtyard by Marriott) is a corporate flag. How did they do that? The other, the Hotel at Old Town, is also very well done, in a building comparable to the Oklahoma Hardware Building (now ACM@UCO). The parking garage for that hotel is fully bricked top to bottom, with arched window openings and other architectural details that blend perfectly with the district. No expense spared. They had a movie theater (Warren), before the Harkins appeared in Lower Bricktown. They have far more retail.

I think that one place where they differentiated themselves from us in approach was that the City of Wichita opened an office in the district with an on-staff City planner in residence there. I'm not sure if that continues, but I think that taking a structured planning approach rather than a laissez-faire approach benefited them greatly. I also think that - as pointed out above - the fact that they are one of the few entertainment options in the city concentrated the effort and the consumer dollars. While that is good for the district perhaps, I don't think that is good for the city in general. I would much rather live in a city with diverse districts and entertainment options.

They have had troubles too, but I think it is unfortunate that we dismiss them so easily as a model. I think one of OKC's problems throughout the years is that we are too provincial, and that we unfortunately at times seem to think we "invented" downtown revitalization and are loathe to look at other cities for inspiration and instruction. Especially smaller cities. I think sometimes we can learn as much from places like Wichita, Omaha, and Des Moines as we can from Denver, Seattle and New York.

[Urbanized]

Here is the PARKING GARAGE for the Hotel at Old Town:

[bluedogok]

A publicly funded garage would be able to provide a much better stimulus than a private one. Offering cheaper parking for residents would create a greater demand for housing. The best urban districts are mixed-use and and the hardest use to fill is residential. A publicly controlled garage would inevitably lead to more residential if they give pricing preference to residents.

Most successful urban districts have private parking garages. Public garages usually only exist at public buildings, that is the case at almost every major urban area that I can think of.

[soonerguru]

Great post, Urbanized.

And I think we can all agree that when selecting a site for a parking garage, public or private, the presence of important transportation infrastructure should be considered.

There are lots of places to put parking garages but rail right of way is incredibly scarce.

OKC is not the same hick town it once was. Hopefully we've matured enough that we can stand up to developers who just want a make a buck at the public's expense.

This Karchmer guy may be swell and all but a parking garage development is a much lower priority than critical right of way for future transportation.

[dankrutka]

Actually, the theater and a good many shops overlook a quite large surface parking lot. Surface parking is scattered all over OLd Town. Not dissin it.....just saying

There is a huge parking garage next to the Warren Theater (and not the one just mentioned, which is a block away). There are several large surface parking in the Old Town area, but they're not overlooking that area.

Both Old Town and Bricktown have their strengths and weaknesses. I'd give Old Town a slight nod mainly because it is pretty much Wichita's only urban option so there's a better mix of attractions in my opinion. Again, they're very equivalent.

[LandRunOkie]

You're way off base here.

You're off base for two reasons. First, you are arguing against a public project that you perceive to be a financial threat to your business. You run a tourism business and want more tourists and less potential residents. This conflict of interest is pretty invalid but worth noting. I have not a penny invested in Bricktown. Second the likelihood of a public garage getting built after this one has been authorized by the city would decrease GREATLY. So you're fibbing there too.

Most successful urban districts have private parking garages. Public garages usually only exist at public buildings, that is the case at almost every major urban area that I can think of.

Seattle and Lowell, MA have recently built public garages. Two cities that are much more walkable than Denver or OKC.

[Urbanized]

A threat to my business? How exactly is that? I want less residents? In the very post you are referencing I go on to talk about a different subject, Old Town, and mention that the ample housing there is a strength for that district that Bricktown doesn't yet enjoy. I have hundreds of posts on this board and not one time have I EVER espoused running off residents in favor of tourists in Bricktown; in fact I have posted many times about how critical it is to further engage local business. I have also discussed at length with friends and colleagues for many years the importance of seeing structured parking in Bricktown leading to the redevelopment of surface lots as buildings. Public garages, private, I don't care. The more the merrier. Don't presume to know what is in my mind or what my motivations are. You are grasping at straws to support illogical arguments, attacking my credibility and then go further (and over the line) in actually calling me a liar. I can assure you that I am NOT. Totally out of bounds with the personal attack.

[Urbanized]

Thanks, Sid.

[Praedura]

This board is going downhill.

I'm not sure why the level of bile is so high lately, but it's extremely offputting. I think that it's perfectly possible for people to argue differing viewpoints, even with great passion, without resorting to personal attacks on other posters. Just because someone expresses an opinion that varies from yours does not make them evil and give you a pass to malign their character or demonize their motivations. Just state your point of view, back it up with any facts that you have, and then let the discussion flow from there.

At at time when OKC is in the midst of an amazing renaissance, you'd think that we would all be giddy with excitement and eager to work together to move things forward. Instead, it often feels like a power grab with various factions trying to score a I-win-you-lose victory. Wouldn't it be better if we tried to work out our differing viewpoints while still remaing respectful of others? Must the discussion here resemble a circular firing squad?

[Snowman]

It looks like there could be several options, to fit this into the area without adding height to the building, especially if the state/city ended up buying the existing north track back. Also this is not the only path that could be used to get to the north side, it could be accessed from the route near the river, granted it would be nice if we keep our options open to do a Chicago Loop style setup with non-HSR rail for projects that would benefit from high frequency access to other parts of the triangle of tracks around Bricktown and the mill site.

[bluedogok]

Seattle and Lowell, MA have recently built public garages. Two cities that are much more walkable than Denver or OKC.

Two out of what a hundred urban areas scattered throughout the country? I can't think of seeing a publicly owned garage that is not attached or near a public building in places like Boston, Chicago, Baltimore, NYC, St. Louis, etc. They may exist but they certainly are not as common as they are in OKC. Lowell, Mass is pretty much a suburb of Boston, hardly an urban city on its own, more akin to Edmond or Norman building a public garage in their downtown areas. The "walkability" of an overall city or metro area means absolutely nothing to a dense urban area, most people would say Boston is very walkable but the city area itself is very small, go out to the burbs and it is no different than OKC in many ways. Downtown Denver and LoDo are both very walkable areas and most condo developments in those areas have their own garages built by private developers.

I don't think a public garage is the only option as the one next to the ballpark has shown, private developers will build a garage if the demand is there. This proposal might not be the best utilization of that space but it is still a private garage proposal showing that the interest is there in the private sector. I just feel there are better uses of public monies if the private sector is willing to invest in parking garages.

[LandRunOkie]

I don't see what you think you are adding to the conversation. You said public garages usually exist only at public buildings. I gave you two counter examples and you argue with those. You can find more if you actually look. Those were off the top of my head.

[bluedogok]

I don't see what you think you are adding to the conversation. You said public garages usually exist only at public buildings. I gave you two counter examples and you argue with those. You can find more if you actually look. Those were off the top of my head.

What I am adding is perspective from living outside the outside the city for the past 10 years and my experience in many markets of having designed and perform construction administration on some projects that included parking garages. I can come up with hundreds of private garages in cities all over the country. There aren't that many general purpose public garages being built that aren't attached to some sort of civic building. Yes, there may be some but they are not the majority of garages built or under development. Just because OKC has had a majority of municipally owned parking garages over the years doesn't mean that is the predominate method used throughout the country. A public garage at the new convention center makes sense in part because of the lack of a current garage (public or private) in the immediate area, one in Bricktown doesn't since there is already a private garage that was built 10+ years ago and a current private sector proposal to build one.

Like I stated before, I feel there are better uses of city (and ultimately taxpayer) money than to takeover a property by eminent domain and the city building a garage when the private sector can build them. That is just my opinion as someone in commercial architecture.

[LandRunOkie]

Ah so you set me up. Regardless, there are plenty of differences between Denver and OKC. The recreational opportunities the Rockies offer, having a franchise in all three pro leagues, a healthy downtown scene, and tolerant views toward marijuana all make Denver more attractive to young professionals than OKC. Denver has experienced a population and housing boom due to "bright flight" while OKC's population boom has been mostly due to Hispanic immigration.

We are in the position of having to create demand for residential development downtown and especially Bricktown. This is not a case of me trying to strong arm city government into using eminent domain. They have been looking at building a public garage in Bricktown since early last year when they announced they had sold the other municipally owned garages. This new development comes off as a deviation from COPTA's original plans, which is strange because it was a situation in which city government actually had it right the first time for once.

[BoulderSooner]

Thanks, Sid.

I think you have a secret agenda

[UnFrSaKn]

Bricktown Canal (May 13 2013) - a set on Flickr

[Praedura]

Bricktown Canal (May 13 2013) - a set on Flickr

Thanks Will. Those are great shots.

I hope that the green arrows on the pathway aren't permanent.

[UnFrSaKn]

Lower Bricktown Canal (May 13 2013) - YouTube