New Streetcar Routes in Other Cities

[shawnw]

Oh I guess this would have been the better place to put my post about the Tucson system I rode over thanksgiving...

[Motley]

Sid, isn't San Diego's system a streetcar? If not, what is the difference between a streetcar and a trolley?

[Motley]

Thanks.

[Plutonic Panda]

What's your favorite? Mine would probably be Portland.

[AP]

How old is Philly's system? That seems incredibly long.

[shawnw]

SEPTA Subway?Surface Trolley Lines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[hoya]

How big will ours be in comparison to those?

[NWOKCGuy]

Interesting read...

A streetcar not desired? - Kevin Robillard - POLITICO

[Just the facts]

What is so interesting about it? A bunch of highway construction lobbyist and their paid politicians don't like streetcars. Where is the news in that? The Atlanta streetcar had two crashes in the first 5 days of testing. Do you know how many Atlantans were killed in traffic accidents in those same 5 days? I'll bet it was more than 2. Just once it would be nice for some balance in reporting. How about a headline that reads, "After $10 Trillion in Highway Spending Congestion Is Worse Than Ever".

[ljbab728]

What is so interesting about it? A bunch of highway construction lobbyist and their paid politicians don't like streetcars. Where is the news in that? The Atlanta streetcar had two crashes in the first 5 days of testing. Do you know how many Atlantans were killed in traffic accidents in those same 5 days? I'll bet it was more than 2. Just once it would be nice for some balance in reporting. How about a headline that reads, "After $10 Trillion in Highway Spending Congestion Is Worse Than Ever".

Well Kerry, you don't have to agree with something to find it interesting. Sometimes it's just the opposite.

[NWOKCGuy]

What is so interesting about it? A bunch of highway construction lobbyist and their paid politicians don't like streetcars. Where is the news in that? The Atlanta streetcar had two crashes in the first 5 days of testing. Do you know how many Atlantans were killed in traffic accidents in those same 5 days? I'll bet it was more than 2. Just once it would be nice for some balance in reporting. How about a headline that reads, "After $10 Trillion in Highway Spending Congestion Is Worse Than Ever".

Did you read the article or just scan it for something you could try to refute without backing it up? I don't know how many Atlantans were killed in traffic accidents during that period and neither do you but that was hardly the point of the article.

[Plutonic Panda]

What is so interesting about it? A bunch of highway construction lobbyist and their paid politicians don't like streetcars. Where is the news in that? The Atlanta streetcar had two crashes in the first 5 days of testing. Do you know how many Atlantans were killed in traffic accidents in those same 5 days? I'll bet it was more than 2. Just once it would be nice for some balance in reporting. How about a headline that reads, "After $10 Trillion in Highway Spending Congestion Is Worse Than Ever".

Because the population is growing faster than we can support it at the current rate of building and progress in some cities. I'll take a great highway system over a great mass transit system.

I am also worried that our route in OKC is going to be extremely underused. I hope it isn't and I hope our ridership beats expectations, but I just have a gut feeling it won't be used like some claim. I still want to see it built regardless and I will certainly use it.

[betts]

Y

Because the population is growing faster than we can support it at the current rate of building and progress in some cities. I'll take a great highway system over a great mass transit system.

I am also worried that our route in OKC is going to be extremely underused. I hope it isn't and I hope our ridership beats expectations, but I just have a gut feeling it won't be used like some claim. I still want to see it built regardless and I will certainly use it.

Actually, because of the city's growth, what it really needs is a commuter rail and bus system that links to the streetcar. Then you'll see very significant use as it becomes the "last mile" for commuters. Highways only lead to more cars and more pollution.

[Urban Pioneer]

Rail could make a comeback in O.C. with proposed streetcar line - LA Times

[Just the facts]

Mass transit will increase traffic - gotta love it.

[Spartan]

How big will ours be in comparison to those?

I usually expect to hear this in a mystery tower thread or....

[Spartan]

Interesting read...

A streetcar not desired? - Kevin Robillard - POLITICO

It's a hatchet piece, not an interesting read. It highlights a minority objection and then jumps to a conclusion: "Streetcar not supported!" (Not supported by whom?) or "Efforts to revive a classic form of transit derailed!" (Classic? Derailed, where - in the one example of Arlington, where supporters just wanted the Feds to give them an egregiously expensive one?)

To post that link is not a thoughtful contribution to this topic...

The only real fact in that article is that Obama's FTA has spent $500 million on streetcars, which is just 1/19th what it spends on highways in a year. To dig further than the article did, the same FTA requires a local match and unanimity in process in order to be competitive for that funding, which is not the way it just gives out highway money left and right.

[Rover]

I think you may be overreacting to the article. To deny there have been and are some problems is to deny reality. Not every perspective is that there are sunshine and roses everywhere. The only way to improve things is to recognize defects and correct them. That doesn't mean we or anyone else should quit looking at them as a viable option, but just as we ask everyone to be realistic about expectations for our CC, we should be realistic about our expectations for the streetcar.

Even in Portland they are able to admit: Portland Streetcar annual ridership inflated by 19 percent, 1.1 million rides, audit reports | OregonLive.com

[Spartan]

Similarly, "admit" is a strange word to use. I know that this doesn't comfort people who are anti-transit, but honestly with rapid boarding systems, there is literally NO way to accurately pinpoint ridership figures. Probably the safest method would be to take fares, estimate avg rides on a day pass, then add fare non-compliance figures. Further complicating the scenario with rapid boarding concepts are "fare-free zones" which are most streetcar downtowns. A ridership "audit" is usually a person in a vest with an iPad just counting passengers - looking at the front doors, and not the rear.

The reason that getting the wording right, whether you use "admit" to imply some dastardly streetcar deed up in Portland, or whether it's an all-around hatchet piece by a middle right news organization like POLITICO (all caps bc sic) that usually covers Congressional politics, is because this matters. Streetcars can be a powerful transit tool if used right, and we don't do NEARLY enough on it, we aren't gearing up to really do anymore than we already have, and the collateral damage is the cities that go unserved by transit agencies that have morphed over time into social welfare agencies.

They call that "equity planning," while in my book there is very little equity when the transit-dependent aren't offered transit dignity, and then all of a sudden we are getting political and involving reporters on both sides, and forgetting what can be done when we work together to build a holistic transportation network. Transportation is not an end; the built environment that gets developed is the end, and transportation is just the means to an end. That planning virtue goes both ways, as it should smack transit planners with their "Levels of Service" grades that obliterate the cities they serve, just as it should caution transit planners who think of transit as merely getting a carless person from Point A to Point B.

I split hairs here because in general, mainstream news reporting on streetcars is cringe-worthy. Sometimes it's as benign as just mincing words (like calling it a "trolley," which is very harmful) and awkward phrasing, but sometimes it's targeted to drum up opposition (whether it be to create a news story where there wasn't, or to assist news allies, it's the same thing and it's a common practice with streetcar coverage). Notice how whether the reporter is in a sophisticated news market or a down-home kinda place, the coverage is purposefully awkward so as to maintain the reporter's populist appeal, because those newfangled streetcar things are weeeird.

[shawnw]

As costs were cut, D.C.?s streetcars were left frozen in tracks - The Washington Post

[mkjeeves]

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit

Since the U.S. streetcar revival relies heavily on transportation subsidies, it's only fair to expect the latest wave of streetcar lines to produce benefits related to (wait for it) transportation. But the new systems in operation—ten by the latest tally, with a few dozen more being planned—have left much to be desired on that seemingly essential count. Notwithstanding the legacy system in New Orleans, the best evidence to date places streetcars somewhat outside the transit network, more a tool for tourism than city mobility.

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit - CityLab

[LakeEffect]

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit

Since the U.S. streetcar revival relies heavily on transportation subsidies, it's only fair to expect the latest wave of streetcar lines to produce benefits related to (wait for it) transportation. But the new systems in operation—ten by the latest tally, with a few dozen more being planned—have left much to be desired on that seemingly essential count. Notwithstanding the legacy system in New Orleans, the best evidence to date places streetcars somewhat outside the transit network, more a tool for tourism than city mobility.

Overall, U.S. Streetcars Just Aren't Meeting the Standards of Good Transit - CityLab

Posting a year-old article that's already been critiqued in this thread...

[mkjeeves]

Posting a year-old article that's already been critiqued in this thread...

It's new to me. On a second look from the date of the article forward, I don't see it in this thread. I'm sure it's here somewhere. Cite?

[LakeEffect]

It's new to me. On a second look from the date of the article forward, I don't see it in this thread. I'm sure it's here somewhere. Cite?

Might not have been this thread, but I know we talked about it on here somewhere... search sometimes doesn't work well.

[mkjeeves]

Might not have been this thread, but I know we talked about it on here somewhere... search sometimes doesn't work well.

No sweat.