OU Projects

[ou48A]

I do not know where these people getting those numbers because they have actually been decreasing, look at traffic counts of the past decade.

They have their fact straight and the reason why I know they do is because OU and the city of Norman has been growing by something like 1000 to 1500 people per year for decades. That adds up to increased traffic on the same roads that have seen little to no improvement and do nothing but keep getting more and more congested and more dangerous. Since I first put eyes on Lindsey street in the mid 1960's my own eyes don't lie to me.

Try going to the west side at the same time of day in about 2 months when class is in session at OU and you will see why its a big problem for busy people who don't have the luxury of time.

[Geographer]

They have their fact straight and the reason why I know they do is because OU and the city of Norman has been growing by something like 1000 to 1500 people per year for decades. That adds up to increased traffic on the same roads that have seen little to no improvement and do nothing but keep getting more and more congested and more dangerous. Since I first put eyes on Lindsey street in the mid 1960's my own eyes don't lie to me.

Try going to the west side at the same time of day in about 2 months when class is in session at OU and you will see why its a big problem for busy people who don't have the luxury of time.

Sigh, even with hard data....

[ou48A]

Sigh, even with hard data....

Bring your linked information......
Lying is unacceptable. Doing anything but 2 lanes in each direction would be a lie. Not doing what the people voted for is a lie.
Heaven help those who would feel the back lash on this because it would likely be serious and likely get personal.

[Geographer]

Bring your linked information......
Lying is unacceptable. Doing anything but 2 lanes in each direction would be a lie. Not doing what the people voted for is a lie.
Heaven help those who would feel the back lash on this because it would likely be serious and likely get personal.

Side Joke: Isn't that what politicians do all the time? not doing what people voted for.


Seriously though, projects and designs change multiple times throughout the process.

Wouldn't it have been a lie as well if city people sold this based on false information? ...such as "expected" increase in traffic...when traffic has been decreasing for a decade.

[venture]

making it look like robinson was never the plan .... extra lanes plus bike lanes plus sidewalks was always the plan

I don't think he is disputing that. I think he is point out that the overall look it was is in flux. There is plenty of talk of doing away with turn lanes completely (reported in the Transcript) in favor of a landscaped median. It would also be advantageous to eliminate as many curb cuts as possible and force people to utilize the side streets that are available.

They have their fact straight and the reason why I know they do is because OU and the city of Norman has been growing by something like 1000 to 1500 people per year for decades. That adds up to increased traffic on the same roads that have seen little to no improvement and do nothing but keep getting more and more congested and more dangerous. Since I first put eyes on Lindsey street in the mid 1960's my own eyes don't lie to me.

Try going to the west side at the same time of day in about 2 months when class is in session at OU and you will see why its a big problem for busy people who don't have the luxury of time.

Hmm. Trey sure did just link the hard data for traffic on Lindsey and unless the laws of math have been redone, those numbers are decreasing. We also have to keep in mind that Central Norman is pretty mature when it comes to development and much of the growth is in the suburban sprawl areas. Of course the next logical step for Central Norman is high density developments which will only succeed with proper mass transit planning.

I do wonder how many times you actually drive through campus during the day? I actually live just off Lindsey and transit through there during the school year - during rush hour - and it has never taken me this phantom 30 minutes to get across.

[ou48A]

Side Joke: Isn't that what politicians do all the time? not doing what people voted for.


Seriously though, projects and designs change multiple times throughout the process.

Wouldn't it have been a lie as well if city people sold this based on false information? ...such as "expected" increase in traffic...when traffic has been decreasing for a decade.

The linked information that I provide shows that traffic is increasing and when combined with the fact that Normans population has grown significantly since 2000 along with increased OU enrollment I am going to believe published information over your opinion. If you have links of document substance please post them.

They might tweak the Lindsey project, but not building 2 lanes in each direction from Berry west would represent lie.... because that's how it was sold to the voters.... And no a lie is not done too often at the local city level on something this major and even if its done elsewhere that doesn’t make it right for Norman & OU.

All this reminds me of the time in 1979 when a person with a PHD told me that we didn't need any more parking lots or any parking garages at OU. When I ask why he said that nobody would be driving cars in twenty to thirty years. Just like we see now that was an example of a person who thought he was was a lot smarter than he really was with his short sighted views that only hinder good growth, prosperity and even higher density living for a much larger segment of the population.

There are a ton of older rent houses in the area that could be torn down and redeveloped but the congestion issues makes this land less desirable for many.
I know that in several more years (if the wife will let me) that I wouldn’t mind living in a higher end condo complex provided that it had enough of the right amenity's and if it was not too close to the RR tracks. We will have more time to spend and less desired to do yard work at that point in our lives.


On edit: I see your edited linked traffic numbers..... This is not significantly different.... It's a small bump in the road. The trend of over all increased traffic is still likely to continue..... Particularly as Norman and OU keep growing.

[Geographer]

The linked information that I provide shows that traffic is increasing and when combined with the fact that Normans population has grown significantly since 2000 along with increased OU enrollment I am going to believe published information over your opinion. If you have links of document substance please post them.

They might tweak the Lindsey project, but not building 2 lanes in each direction from Berry west would represent lie.... because that's how it was sold to the voters.... And no a lie is not done too often at the local city level on something this major and even if its done elsewhere that doesn’t make it right for Norman & OU.

All this reminds me of the time in 1979 when a person with a PHD told me that we didn't need any more parking lots or any parking garages at OU. When I ask why he said that nobody would be driving cars in twenty to thirty years. Just like we see now that was an example of a person who thought he was was a lot smarter than he really was with his short sighted views that only hinder good growth, prosperity and even higher density living for a much larger segment of the population.

There are a ton of older rent houses in the area that could be torn down and redeveloped but the congestion issues makes this land less desirable for many.
I know that in several more years (if the wife will let me) that I wouldn’t mind living in a higher end condo complex provided that it had enough of the right amenity's and if it was not too close to the RR tracks. We will have more time to spend and less desired to do yard work at that point in our lives.


On edit: I see your edited linked traffic numbers..... This is not significantly different.... It's a small bump in the road. The trend of over all increased traffic is still likely to continue..... Particularly as Norman and OU keep growing.

Enjoy your line of thinking I hope it works well for you.

[venture]

I'm confused.

The linked information that I provide shows that traffic is increasing and when combined with the fact that Normans population has grown significantly since 2000 along with increased OU enrollment I am going to believe published information over your opinion. If you have links of document substance please post them.

On edit: I see your edited linked traffic numbers..... This is not significantly different.... It's a small bump in the road. The trend of over all increased traffic is still likely to continue..... Particularly as Norman and OU keep growing.

Which he provided documented proof about 2 hours ago on his original post (it was a quick edit IIRC) but was apparently overlooked.

Umm. A 3000 cars per day decline over the last 10 years...I think that is pretty significant. Small bump in the road? It's be decreasing for 10 Years.



Trend overall? I might be young in comparison, but I think we all learned the same meaning of trend.

trend(trnd)n.1. The general direction in which something tends to move.
2. A general tendency or inclination.

There hasn't been any upward tick in 10 years...so where is this upward trend?

All this reminds me of the time in 1979 when a person with a PHD told me that we didn't need any more parking lots or any parking garages at OU. When I ask why he said that nobody would be driving cars in twenty to thirty years. Just like we see now that was an example of a person who thought he was was a lot smarter than he really was with his short sighted views that only hinder good growth, prosperity and even higher density living for a much larger segment of the population.

Indeed. So what happened? The car loving baby boomer generation loved their suburban utopias and alas - we got stuck with what we have now. Was he short sighted or was the generation that is now being replaced (in power) selfish and lazy?

Also. We obviously have a battle going on here and not to get too morbid, but should our tax dollars and planning time be used to handle the next 5-10 years or the next 40-50 years? It is easier for some to say they want it a certain way or it has to be this way because of what is going on right now, but they are only going to be living with it for another 10-20 years...the rest of us are here for another 40-60 years.

What is wrong with doing it right the first time, planning for the long term...instead of doing a patch job that in 20 years we are going to be regretting. Norman's population is only going higher, as pointed out, so we need to be making the decisions now to foster high density development (with small footprints) in order to accommodate that. That means better housing developments and more investment in mass transit/rail.

There are a ton of older rent houses in the area that could be torn down and redeveloped but the congestion issues makes this land less desirable for many.
I know that in several more years (if the wife will let me) that I wouldn’t mind living in a higher end condo complex provided that it had enough of the right amenity's and if it was not too close to the RR tracks. We will have more time to spend and less desired to do yard work at that point in our lives.

Really? So let's take a stroll down Lindsey from Berry.

Berry to Pickard: 12 homes. One house on the SOUTH side of Lindsey built in 1950 with a value of $83K. It is between a house valued at $916K and $314K. Only 3 other homes in that area are below $200K and are higher than $144K.

Pickard to Flood: 8 homes...1 is 63k the rest are between $123K and $284K. The highest value one is on the North side of the street.

Flood to Lahoma: 6 homes...257k, 115k, 264k, 177k, 120k, and 225k. Two of the higher valued homes are north and one is south.

Lahoma to Chautauqua: 8 homes, including a frat house I believe it is. Two of the homes on the south side are worth over $400K, north side they are between $112k to $175k.

Chautauqua to College: 3 homes...202k, 350k, 293k. With those right along the street - not really the old cheap rental houses being spoken of.

Beyond that you have mostly commercial property.

So...

1) If this is so undesirable, how are property values so high.

2) If people didn't want to live here, why are people building near million dollar homes in this area (the most expensive one isn't 10 years old yet).

3) How it is justified to spend over $3 million (going by market rate) buying the homes on the north side just to add more traffic and congestion to the area that will negatively impact property values?

I think this is just a simple generational divide. The younger ground (40 and under) is taking over more responsibility running the city and we want it to be done right for us as we age and for those that start families. The baby boomers are wanting what has felt comfortable for them over the years and don't want to break the addiction of their cars, sprawl and other wastes.

[Geographer]

very well said.

[CaptDave]

I think this is just a simple generational divide. The younger ground (40 and under) is take over more responsibility running the city and we want it to be done right for us as we age and for those that start families. The baby boomers are wanting what has felt comfortable for them over the years and don't want to break the addiction of their cars, sprawl and other wastes.

This is germane to just about every discussion of development and infrastructure. It is becoming clear that "needs" of 30 years ago are often just "wants". Even in the face of objective data, there will be segments of the population convinced they are entitled to their wants. More people are becoming less willing to sacrifice quality of life in urban areas to enable escape to suburbia. Suburban living is not going to disappear and will always be the choice of many people, but it is long past time to decrease the nearly exclusive emphasis of infrastructure investment to facilitate high speed movement to the 'burbs. (I am over 40 so don't lump all of us into that group!)

[venture]

This is germane to just about every discussion of development and infrastructure. It is becoming clear that "needs" of 30 years ago are often just "wants". Even in the face of objective data, there will be segments of the population convinced they are entitled to their wants. More people are becoming less willing to sacrifice quality of life in urban areas to enable escape to suburbia. Suburban living is not going to disappear and will always be the choice of many people, but it is long past time to decrease the nearly exclusive emphasis of infrastructure investment to facilitate high speed movement to the 'burbs. (I am over 40 so don't lump all of us into that group!)

Dave...wouldn't never lump everyone in to that, but I think the generalization is somewhat appropriate since it was during the 70s/80s and such that we saw the flight to the burbs. Look at how many cities in this country, even OKC, that had some form of street car or light rail system in the central urban areas at some point in the past. Then it all went away in those cities that experienced the flight from the core.

[Just the facts]

All this reminds me of the time in 1979 when a person with a PHD told me that we didn't need any more parking lots or any parking garages at OU. When I ask why he said that nobody would be driving cars in twenty to thirty years. Just like we see now that was an example of a person who thought he was was a lot smarter than he really was with his short sighted views that only hinder good growth, prosperity and even higher density living for a much larger segment of the population.

The times are changing again. You have become your 1979 professor. Ponder on that for a few minutes.

[ou48A]

The times are changing again. You have become your 1979 professor. Ponder on that for a few minutes.

I think very definitively not. There are more cars and parking spaces on or near OU's main campus than ever and many times than the amount compared to 1979.
As OU and Norman continue to grow so will the traffic. Besides it wasn't my professor it was a relative who is still working very hard and well past his normal retirement years. But there are a lot of well meaning professors who are full of it.....particularly when it comes to economics, creating prosperity and transportation.

[venture]

I think very definitively not. There are more cars and parking spaces on or near OU's main campus than ever and many times than the amount compared to 1979.
As OU and Norman continue to grow so will the traffic. Besides it wasn't my professor it was a relative who is still working very hard and well past his normal retirement years. But there are a lot of well meaning professors who are full of it.....particularly when it comes to economics, creating prosperity and transportation.

Norman's population grew 15% since 2000. Lindsey Streets traffic, in that same time frame, has decreased 14%. Why are you having issues understanding these documented and measurable facts?

Sure there are more cars on the OU campus. How many of those are using Highway 9 to go to I-35 though? Trey might have those numbers. Wouldn't it be a more logical plan to further develop CART and possible street car systems through Norman that link up with a Commuter Rail line to OKC? Make safety improvements to Lindsey, but traffic trends indicate that there is no need to 4-lane Lindsay to campus.

[kevinpate]

One reason I can think of to 4 lane Lindsey. So folks coming in to campus from NW Norman area (or from farther north and jumping off at Tecumseh, can have a four lane route down 36, past main, make the curve and then keep the 4 lane on down Lindsey.

Please note i am not saying it is a compelling reason, just a reason.

[Geographer]

Norman's population grew 15% since 2000. Lindsey Streets traffic, in that same time frame, has decreased 14%. Why are you having issues understanding these documented and measurable facts?

Sure there are more cars on the OU campus. How many of those are using Highway 9 to go to I-35 though? Trey might have those numbers. Wouldn't it be a more logical plan to further develop CART and possible street car systems through Norman that link up with a Commuter Rail line to OKC? Make safety improvements to Lindsey, but traffic trends indicate that there is no need to 4-lane Lindsay to campus.

Imhoff Road (which is the road off of Highway 9 that many students take to the Lloyd Noble Center to park): imhoff.JPG You can see that Imhoff traffic is decreasing as well.

Highway 9 (this traffic count is taken on highway 9 between the Imhoff exit and Chautauqua exit): hwy 9.JPG It has been increasing here, but I will attribute much of that to new development on the south and SE side of Norman, although more people could be taking it to campus as well...but where this traffic count was taken, it's not the most direct route to campus or LNC.

[BG918]

One reason I can think of to 4 lane Lindsey. So folks coming in to campus from NW Norman area (or from farther north and jumping off at Tecumseh, can have a four lane route down 36, past main, make the curve and then keep the 4 lane on down Lindsey.

Please note i am not saying it is a compelling reason, just a reason.

4-lane Lindsey west of I-35 doesn't have turn lanes. I would be okay with a 4-lane Lindsey from 24th to campus if it was just 4 lanes, no center turn lane, with a left turn lane only at major intersections like McGee, Berry and Jenkins. There is already a center turn lane for most of this distance, so getting rid of that and adding two lanes is not really widening it much. The big improvement would be new sidewalks along the entire stretch, and new trees and lighting.

And while I like the idea of bike lanes on Lindsey I think they would be better used on less busy streets like Boyd, Chautauqua, Elm and Brooks (which already has them in some parts). If the city decided to 2-way Main and Gray then that would be another good place for a bike lane, as well as on University connecting Main to Boyd.

[Dustin]

New state of the art student housing building, Headington Hall.

[mugofbeer]

I have been to a number of games in recent years and always approach from the North. I saw this from the Stadium while under construction but haven't seen it at this distance. VERY nice structure! I recall there were some proposals for privately owned residential not far from this location - east on Lidsey maybe? Whatever happened to those plans?

[ou48A]

I have been to a number of games in recent years and always approach from the North. I saw this from the Stadium while under construction but haven't seen it at this distance. VERY nice structure! I recall there were some proposals for privately owned residential not far from this location - east on Lidsey maybe? Whatever happened to those plans?

Building nice condos was the plan... At one point I was interested. They old apartments there had become a place where shady characters had been hanging out. Boren wanted to get rid of them. Some say that he used the condes as an excuse to tear the old apartments down. They economy took a nose dive and nothing has happened....

I have always though that a very nice 4 star hotel and a large condo complex that was priced high enough to keep most students out would do well some where near OU but not to close to the RR tracks

[ou48A]

Scout.com: OU's new student housing opens


Suggested reading on OU's new Headington Hall

[ou48A]

I love this! Its part of the new Headington Hall at OU.

Its called the Guardian. Its a very nice touch IMHO.
*

[Snowman]

I love this! Its part of the new Headington Hall at OU.

Its called the Guardian. Its a very nice touch IMHO.

Hope he got permission to leave the capital dome

[BG918]

Headington Hall is a first class facility. I hope it becomes the basis for what future OU student housing projects look like in the Asp & Lindsey area.

What are the plans for the existing athletic dorms (Wilkinson House, etc)?

[HangryHippo]

Headington Hall is a first class facility. I hope it becomes the basis for what future OU student housing projects look like in the Asp & Lindsey area.

What are the plans for the existing athletic dorms (Wilkinson House, etc)?

Headington Hall is amazing! While there are a few things I would have done differently, it's a top notch facility that I, too, hope serves as a model for future OU housing.

I think the plan for the existing buildings is one is going to be torn down and the other is going to be reworked into offices for athletic staff. That was the last I heard anyway.