NFL in OKC

[jedicurt]

Thank you bludogok, I'm glad someone recalled that we had an AFL team in the city; that's not to say that the second time around a group didn't reject bringing the AFL back to the city.

I recalled. just don't see the relevance. Spokane has a successful AFL franchise now, does that mean they should consider getting an NFL team as well??? If you are trying to prove the viability of an NFL team in OKC, don't use a league that ended up folding because of bad management and over expanding, and then was replaced by their minor league... In fact, OKC getting an AFL team along with a bunch of other cities that didn't need one, is one of the reasons that league folded, and then the AF2 became the current AFL.

[Laramie]

I recalled. just don't see the relevance. Spokane has a successful AFL franchise now, does that mean they should consider getting an NFL team as well??? If you are trying to prove the viability of an NFL team in OKC, don't use a league that ended up folding because of bad management and over expanding, and then was replaced by their minor league... In fact, OKC getting an AFL team along with a bunch of other cities that didn't need one, is one of the reasons that league folded, and then the AF2 became the current AFL.

No, you need not read anthing into what I said. I was acknowledging that you recalled something. Some people don't know the history of sports in OKC; yet, they come on here half-cocked.

Wasn't trying compare the AFL to the NFL or to pull you over to my angle. Just responding to a commit made by a poster; obviously, my opinions aren't going to influence you anymore than yours are going to influence me. Opinions are for whatever they are worth--when its all said and done; what do they really matter.

We all learn from reading the various postings on this forum; I don't always agree or disagree with what is said on this forum.

Your opinions have merit and I respect what you have to say...

[Snowman]

Old 'homefries' (Mayor Kirk Humphreys) wanted to bring back the AFL pre-Katrina; the unfortunate disaster in New Orleans did give us the opportunity to be a test market for the NBA. Without the experience of test marketing the NBA; we wouldn't have a tean now. There were many cities in pursuit of the NBA, Louisville (former ABA member), Norfolk-Virginia Beach (largest metro w/o major league sport franchise) and Dallas wanted a second NBA franchise. All wanted the Hornets to temporarily relocate to their cities post Katrina.

While I would not be surprised if the experience with the Hornets greased some wheels with owners and staff of the NBA. Bennett had started working himself into the NBA's circle around the time MAPS passed, the state of things between the NBA and Seattle was so toxic that even without the Hornets if he could have still got an ownership team to buy the Sonics when they did and a similar arena package together then it seems like few roadblocks would have been put in the owners way of moving by the league.

[SoonerDave]

While I would not be surprised if the experience with the Hornets greased some wheels with some owners in the NBA. Bennett had started working himself into the NBA's circle around the time MAPS passed, the state of things in between the NBA and Seattle was so toxic that if he could have still got an ownership team to buy the Sonics and a similar arena package together then it seems like few roadblocks would have been put in the owners way by the league to keep the team from moving.

Think this is a critically important point that is easily overlooked. Think things were souring and simmering negatively in Seattle for a while, and OKC was at the right place at the right time. That's what I meant when I referred to the "perfect storm" of circumstances. It's also what makes the Seattle fans' ire at OKC so preposterous - Stern was at odds with Seattle, I think, loooong before OKC entered the picture.

[dankrutka]

Here are 7 quick reasons why this is a pipe dream:

1. Los Angeles does not have a NFL team.
2. A metro needs a minimum of 1 million people per sports team. OKC needs 700,000 more residents to meet this general rule.
3. OKC has among the lowest per capita incomes (i.e., spending money) of major cities, thus meaning it probably needs more than the 1 million people rule.
4. Corporate sponsorship is already spread thin.
5. OU & OSU football are great for those universities. How much would a NFL team diminish that?
6. NFL stadiums are incredibly expensive and keeping the Thunder in a nice arena will provide enough cost for taxpayers.
7. There are far better ways for taxpayers to spend their money (e.g., streetcar expansion) to invest in this city.

This topic should be revisited in 30-50 years though.

[Snowman]

nm

[okcpulse]

Here are 7 quick reasons why this is a pipe dream:

1. Los Angeles does not have a NFL team.
2. A metro needs a minimum of 1 million people per sports team. OKC needs 700,000 more residents to meet this general rule.
3. OKC has among the lowest per capita incomes (i.e., spending money) of major cities, thus meaning it probably needs more than the 1 million people rule.
4. Corporate sponsorship is already spread thin.
5. OU & OSU football are great for those universities. How much would a NFL team diminish that?
6. NFL stadiums are incredibly expensive and keeping the Thunder in a nice arena will provide enough cost for taxpayers.
7. There are far better ways for taxpayers to spend their money (e.g., streetcar expansion) to invest in this city.

This topic should be revisited in 30-50 years though.

What makes New Orleans the exception to the rule?

[bluedogok]

New Orleans had a team for many years before the business of the NFL today came into being. That team would more than likely be in San Antonio if the NFL hadn't of forced Benson to move the team back after the temporary stay in San Antonio.

If New Orleans were going for a new expansion or relocated team and had no previous NFL history (like OKC does not) they would have a very hard time attracting a team in the current environment. The NFL is a much different game business wise than it was when most of the teams were located in the 70's and prior years.

[okcpulse]

New Orleans had a team for many years before the business of the NFL today came into being. That team would more than likely be in San Antonio if the NFL hadn't of forced Benson to move the team back after the temporary stay in San Antonio.

If New Orleans were going for a new expansion or relocated team and had no previous NFL history (like OKC does not) they would have a very hard time attracting a team in the current environment. The NFL is a much different game business wise than it was when most of the teams were located in the 70's and prior years.

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

[Snowman]

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

There attendance especially the Hornets/Pelicans was not great even pre-Katrina, had it not been for that there is a decent chance that they would be playing basketball in San Jose or another city when the lease was up a couple years ago.

[bluedogok]

Right, however New Orleans has both NFL and NBA.

...and neither would be there still if the commissioners of the leagues hadn't overridden the team ownership in the name of PR. Neither league thought it "looked good to abandon New Orleans" because of Katrina. If Benson and Shinn had their way the Saints would be in San Antonio and the Hornets would be in OKC. There was a "special case" made for New Orleans, the only thing that it has going for it in regards to population is the fact that it is a tourist city.

[bhawes]

NFL in Oklahoma City will never happen unless the population in Oklahoma or Tulsa surrounding areas get to about 1.5 to 2 million people.

[mugofbeer]

Other than Atlanta, which has a relatively affluent metro population of about 5 million, what other major metro area strongly supports both NFL and major college football? Not Houston, not Dallas, not Denver, LA or San Francisco (though SF/OAK comes close at times. OKCs support of the Thunder has cost support for OU basketball. NFL would do the same for both OU and OSU football.

[Snowman]

Other than Atlanta, which has a relatively affluent metro population of about 5 million, what other major metro area strongly supports both NFL and major college football? Not Houston, not Dallas, not Denver, LA or San Francisco (though SF/OAK comes close at times. OKCs support of the Thunder has cost support for OU basketball. NFL would do the same for both OU and OSU football.

The support of OU's men's basketball generally tracked with the team performance. They went from a contender in the NCAA tournament to practically win less in the Big 12 as the Thunder arrived, a drop off in attendance for a sport that has never been as consistently supported as football should not be unexpected. Also, I do not think that donations have dropped nearly as much as the sales of the cheap seats.

[dankrutka]

I agree. OU has been bad (until last season) for the first stretch in probably 30 years. OU's basketball fans have never been great, but attendance increased last season. If the team returns to where it was (a top 20 team annually) then I would bet they'll have 80-90% of what they used to get.

Football seems like another monster though. I really like the strong college presence now. I'd hate to see them lose support.

[BoulderSooner]

I agree. OU has been bad (until last season) for the first stretch in probably 30 years. OU's basketball fans have never been great, but attendance increased last season. If the team returns to where it was (a top 20 team annually) then I would bet they'll have 80-90% of what they used to get.

Football seems like another monster though. I really like the strong college presence now. I'd hate to see them lose support.

and it wasn't long ago that OU basketball was a ticket sell out every game ..

[dankrutka]

and it wasn't long ago that OU basketball was a ticket sell out every game ..

When was that? I think you're romanticizing a little bit. I went to most games since 2000 until the last couple years and while fan support was better, there was never a time that they were selling out evey game.

[Just the facts]

For those that want the NFL, what is your reasoning for it? Is it because you like NFL football and want a local team to root for, you think it will raise OKCs national/international profile (or even in the profile in your own mind), both, or some other reason?

[Laramie]

For those that want the NFL, what is your reasoning for it? Is it because you like NFL football and want a local team to root for, you think it will raise OKCs national/international profile (or even in the profile in your own mind), both, or some other reason?

My mind is buffering (LOL!)...

Seriously, a thought-provoking question: Answer: A little of all of the above.

We are not currently ready for the NFL; nor would our small TV market make an impact on the NFL. The period of 2017-20 will help to address many of these questions.

Many large cities like Los Angeles, San Antonio and Portland would be more attractive to the NFL than OKC.

Nashville was a 'can do' city and they aggessively brought the NFL and the NHL in without its arch-rival city Memphis.

How long with that community support both the NHL & the NFL?

The NFL requires 3 million people in a 150-mile radius.

1. Will the NFL ever return to Los Angeles? Has its absence hurt NFL viewership media households?

2. Is San Antonio's Alamo Dome nearing obsolescence? Will they rebuild or renovate. Is it clear that the NFL doesn't want three NFL franchises in Texas?

3. Will Portland ever build an NFL stadium? Does Portland want the NFL?

4. Does the NFL want to go global?

Please: This should generate some discussion...

[BoulderSooner]

from 1998-1999 until around 2005 .. OU season tickets were sold out

don't confuse that with me saying bodies were in the stands .. for most game clearly they were not but the tickets were sold

[Laramie]

"Smart cities plan for the future."--Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett.

The big question is: Do we want to take risks?

MAPS I was our first big risk. It paid off.

MAPS II (...for Kids) It paid off with giving students a better physical learning environment.

MAPS FOR HOOPS Upgraded the Indoor Sports Arena (a key to obtaining an NBA franchise).

MAPS III Introduction of a taste of rail transit, downtown central park, convention center and other projects. In process...

MAPS IV ? (2017) Will we continue the momentum...

The uniqueness about Oklahoma City's experience in extending the sales tax (no new taxes) which allowed for building new structures and renovation of structures needing attention beyond bandages; our city generated its own stimulus to infuse private development.

It is unfortunate that some posters can't look toward the future. I'm talking about 2017 and 2020 and some critics can't see past the current year.

Let hope Mayor Mick Cornett continues on because there are some on the council (with good intentions) who wants to maintain the status-quo and expire the sales tax; this could cause progress to become stagnant and risk jeopardizing the progress OKC has made since the original MAPS I. A city on the verge? Oklahoma City needs to continue its momentum into the future.

[jedicurt]

MAPS IV ? (2017) Will be continue the momentum...

The uniqueness about Oklahoma City experience in extending the sales tax (no new taxes) which allows for building new structures and renovations of structures needing attention beyond bandages; our city generated its own stimulus to infuse private development.

It is unfortunate that some posters can't look toward the future. I'm talking about 2017 and 2020 and some critics can't see past the current year.

I am right there will you thinking about 2017 and 2020, and even 2025 and 2030. Maps IV should be massive expansion of streetcar, along with major changes to the bus system, and perhaps the OKC kick-in part of what would be a Regional transit authority (whether that be a light rail, or commuter rail). Maps IV should also be a continued investment and development of the C2S area and along the river. Maps IV should take us from a city with 3 arenas that have open dates to 2 arenas that are almost always being used (i think this is done by demolition of the Cox Center and a complete rebuild of the State Fair Arena to be the cities second and smaller arena venue). Expansion of sidewalks and bike lanes should be in Maps IV. Maps IV should make our city a destination that people are able to travel to for all of those conventions, that the OKC Chamber thinks will be in our new CC, and get around our fair city without the need of renting a car or getting a Taxi.

Maps IV should be tag lined as Walkable Maps, or Maps for a Walkable OKC. And sure there will be a few projects that are thrown in that are not related to that goal, but i'm okay with that. Maps IV should have the goal of making it easier to spend time and money in OKC rather than the suburbs, so that the amount of money generated for Maps is greatly increased.

At least that is my vision. and it does not include an NFL stadium

[Laramie]

I am right there will you thinking about 2017 and 2020, and even 2025 and 2030. Maps IV should be massive expansion of streetcar, along with major changes to the bus system, and perhaps the OKC kick-in part of what would be a Regional transit authority (whether that be a light rail, or commuter rail). Maps IV should also be a continued investment and development of the C2S area and along the river. Maps IV should take us from a city with 3 arenas that have open dates to 2 arenas that are almost always being used (i think this is done by demolition of the Cox Center and a complete rebuild of the State Fair Arena to be the cities second and smaller arena venue). Expansion of sidewalks and bike lanes should be in Maps IV. Maps IV should make our city a destination that people are able to travel to for all of those conventions, that the OKC Chamber thinks will be in our new CC, and get around our fair city without the need of renting a car or getting a Taxi.

Maps IV should be tag lined as Walkable Maps, or Maps for a Walkable OKC. And sure there will be a few projects that are thrown in that are not related to that goal, but i'm okay with that. Maps IV should have the goal of making it easier to spend time and money in OKC rather than the suburbs, so that the amount of money generated for Maps is greatly increased.

At least that is my vision. and it does not include an NFL stadium

Agree 100%. Does not have to include an NFL stadium...

[traxx]

It is unfortunate that some posters can't look toward the future. I'm talking about 2017 and 2020 and some critics can't see past the current year.

We are looking toward the future. We're looking toward what happens when the Thunder is rebuilding or has a bad season or two. We supported them when they were bad a few years ago because OKC finally had a pro team that it could call its very own. Then we got good and it's fairly easy to support a good team. I think we should see how things turn out for the Thunder and can we support them in the long term. If suport goes south for them in the next 10 or 15 years, we have a real chance of losing them to another city. Let's not make our tenure as a big league city brief.

So as far as the NFL is concerned, I'm afraid we'd be biting off more than we can chew. Right now we don't have the population to support to pro franchises and I doubt we'll have that population by 2020. Maybe we will though. But right now, we're a ways off. Let's support what we do have.

[Laramie]

We are looking toward the future. We're looking toward what happens when the Thunder is rebuilding or has a bad season or two. We supported them when they were bad a few years ago because OKC finally had a pro team that it could call its very own. Then we got good and it's fairly easy to support a good team. I think we should see how things turn out for the Thunder and can we support them in the long term. If suport goes south for them in the next 10 or 15 years, we have a real chance of losing them to another city. Let's not make our tenure as a big league city brief.

So as far as the NFL is concerned, I'm afraid we'd be biting off more than we can chew. Right now we don't have the population to support to pro franchises and I doubt we'll have that population by 2020. Maybe we will though. But right now, we're a ways off. Let's support what we do have.

Have to agree! Based on our current rate of growth; we won't exceed two million.

Interesting that you brought this up. Salt Lake City has been in the league far longer than OKC--they have established their base. They are not averaging the 19,911 they use to average when they were competitive and had a winning record; however, they dropped to 18,900 (still better than OKC). They do have an MLS soccer franchise (Real Salt Lake) which is in its initial years of getting established. The team is doing quite well, averaging 19,000-plus.

Agree, we definitely don't want to lose the Thunder chasing a bigger fish we can hold. 2017-2020 is sometime away; let's see what develops...